TODO: Request Better MT Towing Capacity From Jeep

[mdrideout]

Hey Everyone,

I know I am not the only one annoyed about this. I really want a manual transmission gladiator with the max towing package. The gladiator currently has a much more limited towing capacity with the manual transmission. (I need at least 5,000lb capacity to legally tow my project CJ5 on a car trailer)

The competitor Tacoma does not sacrifice towing capacity with the manual transmission, and there is no reason Jeep has to either if people are willing to pay for it.

Jeep does listen to customer feedback, so reach out and let them know you need more towing capacity and really want a manual!

Jeep Email Form: https://www.jeep.com/webselfservice/jeep/EmailPage.html

Attached is the response I received from them. They are listening!

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[Haus]

Jeep does listen to customer feedback, so reach out and let them know you need more towing capacity and really want a manual!

I don't want to bust any bubbles, but a lot of development costs that go into a vehicle involve certifications, weight ratings, towing tests, etc. If jeep could have easily squeezed out any more towing performance out of the manual, they would have done it in a second.

There was an article going around on Jalopnik about the way the gladiator engineering team was able to get the tow rating to 7500 lbs. The summary there was that essentially it had to do with clever gear ratios to assist with engine cooling. The manual simply doesn't have the computerized capability to ensure the Gladiator is at the right gear ratios to keep the engine cooling sufficient while towing a max load. It doesn't have anything to do with the torque or load capacities of the Aisin transmission, or the stability and GVWR of the Gladiator.

 

[Blown7]

I don't want to bust any bubbles, but a lot of development costs that go into a vehicle involve certifications, weight ratings, towing tests, etc. If jeep could have easily squeezed out any more towing performance out of the manual, they would have done it in a second.

There was an article going around on Jalopnik about the way the gladiator engineering team was able to get the tow rating to 7500 lbs. The summary there was that essentially it had to do with clever gear ratios to assist with engine cooling. The manual simply doesn't have the computerized capability to ensure the Gladiator is at the right gear ratios to keep the engine cooling sufficient while towing a max load. It doesn't have anything to do with the torque or load capacities of the Aisin transmission, or the stability and GVWR of the Gladiator.

You are correct ........cooling is the limiting factor..basically the grill and slots aren't big enough to support more air.

 

[Rex3rd]

I don't want to bust any bubbles, but a lot of development costs that go into a vehicle involve certifications, weight ratings, towing tests, etc. If jeep could have easily squeezed out any more towing performance out of the manual, they would have done it in a second.

There was an article going around on Jalopnik about the way the gladiator engineering team was able to get the tow rating to 7500 lbs. The summary there was that essentially it had to do with clever gear ratios to assist with engine cooling. The manual simply doesn't have the computerized capability to ensure the Gladiator is at the right gear ratios to keep the engine cooling sufficient while towing a max load. It doesn't have anything to do with the torque or load capacities of the Aisin transmission, or the stability and GVWR of the Gladiator.

I saw alot of people complaining about this as well on facebook and then a fca big guy chimed in and said the problem lies in the weak transmission and nothing like better gears or clutch will change towing numbers .Also stated that it would take millions to try to improve that number and with Manuel regular Jeep's there's only a small margin sold that's manual so it's a lost cause to spend that much money for nothing. We should be happy that they at least did think about the stick lovers and made it so. Maybe if sales go great they will invest in the research for a better tranny but for now it's better than nothing.

 

[Malarkey21]

Hey Everyone,

I know I am not the only one annoyed about this. I really want a manual transmission gladiator with the max towing package. The gladiator currently has a much more limited towing capacity with the manual transmission. (I need at least 5,000lb capacity to legally tow my project CJ5 on a car trailer)

The competitor Tacoma does not sacrifice towing capacity with the manual transmission, and there is no reason Jeep has to either if people are willing to pay for it.

Jeep does listen to customer feedback, so reach out and let them know you need more towing capacity and really want a manual!

Jeep Email Form: https://www.jeep.com/webselfservice/jeep/EmailPage.html

Attached is the response I received from them. They are listening!

I see your want to have equal towing for both auto and manual transmissions but I think the jeep engineers did almost all they could to meet those number and pass the SAEJ2807 tests.

Below is a really good read about some of the constraints and solutions Jeep faced with trying to achieve those towing numbers.
https://jalopnik.com/the-engineering-behind-the-jeep-gladiators-tow-rating-1833657453

Toyota got a bonus that they basically could use a "blank slate" to design their trucks cooling and vehicle dynamics needs where Jeep wanted to use as much of the JL styling and parts at the front as they could.

The most interesting part, and where I think the biggest difference comes from on the Gladiator towing numbers, is the article talking about engine loads and heat rejection. I think the Toyota is very similar because of the use of a 6 speed automatic and a 6 speed manual so the gearing has the chance to be identical Vs. the Gladiator where you have 8 speeds closer together to manage engine RPM Vs. only having 6 speeds in the manual.

"Part of this has to do with the fact that different options can alter what’s called “Vehicle Demand Energy”—in this case, how much power is required by the engine to get the truck up the SAE J2807 Davis Dam grade given a certain vehicle load.

The 3.6-liter “Pentastar Upgrade” engine in the JT can meet this power requirement by running at a variety of different operating points (RPM, load points). In other words, let’s say the power needed to tow 7,650 pounds up Davis Dam is 200 horses—this could be achieved in third gear at a high engine RPM but low load (which relates to throttle opening) or in fourth gear at a lower RPM but a higher load on the engine.

Transmission gearing, axle ratio, tire size, and of course transmission calibration are all factors that play into which gear the vehicle can hold up the grade, and thus, which operating point the engine will run at while towing a certain load up Davis Dam.

That’s a big deal, because an engine’s heat rejection (and also the heat rejected by other components in front of the radiator, like a transmission cooler or charge air cooler) is not the same just because the engine is making the same horsepower—it is a function of engine speed and load.

So to achieve 7,650 pounds, Milo told me a major enabler was optimizing the tire size along with the gear ratio, with the team ending up choosing—for the Sport trim with the Max Trailer Tow group—a 32-inch tire and a 4.10:1 axle ratio to keep heat rejection down."

I think this is where the difference comes from.

Anyway I think its a great article to read and gives some great insight into how hard the Jeep engineers worked to get the Gladiator here.

 

[Malarkey21]

@Haus I was reading it while you were typing about it haha

 

[mdrideout]

Are you all really talking yourselves out of requesting a feature? It takes a few minutes and the worst case scenario is that things stay the same?

It is absolutely possible for the Gladiator to have better manual towing capacity. For year one, getting the gladiator made and out the door, I am sure accountants were preventing bottlenecks from being addressed to keep costs as low as possible.

It might not get up to the same max as the automatic, but even a 500lb or 1,000lb improvement would be HUGE. 4000 on non-rubicon manuals is too low for virtually any any car-towing scenario, 4,500 leaves very little margin for lightweight vehicles on an average car trailer. It's pathetic that my 13 year old Honda Ridgeline is rated to tow more, with notorious transmission / cooling problems. But because the sticker on the vehicle says it can, it's legal.

Yes, Jeep assumed that a towing customer would default to automatic. Yes, it would have cost them more to get a better tow rating for the MT out the door.

BUT

If there is a market to justify minor revisions to boost tow rating for MT, they will do it if there's a market. There could be a few small bottlenecks the accountants didn't allow to get addressed because of market assumptions that could allow even hundreds of lbs of improvement.

Whether that means there's a different gearing package for MT max-tow package, a different clutch disc, different transmission gear ratios, different ring gear ratio, different transfer case ratio, etc. It's not uncommon for these things to be altered for different editions of vehicles.

Year 1 vehicles frequently make compromises that are addressed 1 or 2 model years into production. Requesting changes is the only way they happen.

FWIW, I've towed 5,000lbs with a 2013 JKU and it was fine (not legal, but fine). IMO there are probably very addressable things that can be changed to bump this rating to over 5,000 with reasonable cost passed to the customer. Hell, I'd pay $2,000 for that package without thinking twice.

 

[Chadnutz]

It's a shame that we flatlanders have to suffer the constraints of people who want to haul a load up Davis Dam. I don't really care much because I have an F-350 to tow heavy things and this truck will probably only tow jet skis or a bumper pull trailer with a Kubota on it. It's hard to enjoy towing anything heavy with a gasser downshifting on you all the time when you can tow with a diesel manual in overdrive.

 

[hoch]

I would never tow anything close to 5k lbs with my Tacoma. Midsize just aren’t made to comfortably tow that much.

 

[Cordless]

I see your want to have equal towing for both auto and manual transmissions but I think the jeep engineers did almost all they could to meet those number and pass the SAEJ2807 tests.

Below is a really good read about some of the constraints and solutions Jeep faced with trying to achieve those towing numbers.
https://jalopnik.com/the-engineering-behind-the-jeep-gladiators-tow-rating-1833657453

Toyota got a bonus that they basically could use a "blank slate" to design their trucks cooling and vehicle dynamics needs where Jeep wanted to use as much of the JL styling and parts at the front as they could.

The most interesting part, and where I think the biggest difference comes from on the Gladiator towing numbers, is the article talking about engine loads and heat rejection. I think the Toyota is very similar because of the use of a 6 speed automatic and a 6 speed manual so the gearing has the chance to be identical Vs. the Gladiator where you have 8 speeds closer together to manage engine RPM Vs. only having 6 speeds in the manual.

"Part of this has to do with the fact that different options can alter what’s called “Vehicle Demand Energy”—in this case, how much power is required by the engine to get the truck up the SAE J2807 Davis Dam grade given a certain vehicle load.

The 3.6-liter “Pentastar Upgrade” engine in the JT can meet this power requirement by running at a variety of different operating points (RPM, load points). In other words, let’s say the power needed to tow 7,650 pounds up Davis Dam is 200 horses—this could be achieved in third gear at a high engine RPM but low load (which relates to throttle opening) or in fourth gear at a lower RPM but a higher load on the engine.

Transmission gearing, axle ratio, tire size, and of course transmission calibration are all factors that play into which gear the vehicle can hold up the grade, and thus, which operating point the engine will run at while towing a certain load up Davis Dam.

That’s a big deal, because an engine’s heat rejection (and also the heat rejected by other components in front of the radiator, like a transmission cooler or charge air cooler) is not the same just because the engine is making the same horsepower—it is a function of engine speed and load.

So to achieve 7,650 pounds, Milo told me a major enabler was optimizing the tire size along with the gear ratio, with the team ending up choosing—for the Sport trim with the Max Trailer Tow group—a 32-inch tire and a 4.10:1 axle ratio to keep heat rejection down."

I think this is where the difference comes from.

Anyway I think its a great article to read and gives some great insight into how hard the Jeep engineers worked to get the Gladiator here.

So if we go and get a custom box like what gear vendors https://www.gearvendors.com/ sell .... then we can make it a 12sp and would be able to get re certified? For 7000lbs?

 

[WXman]

Hey Everyone,

I know I am not the only one annoyed about this. I really want a manual transmission gladiator with the max towing package. The gladiator currently has a much more limited towing capacity with the manual transmission. (I need at least 5,000lb capacity to legally tow my project CJ5 on a car trailer)

The competitor Tacoma does not sacrifice towing capacity with the manual transmission, and there is no reason Jeep has to either if people are willing to pay for it.

Jeep does listen to customer feedback, so reach out and let them know you need more towing capacity and really want a manual!

Jeep Email Form: https://www.jeep.com/webselfservice/jeep/EmailPage.html

Attached is the response I received from them. They are listening!

Why do people keep saying this? The Tacoma is the second worst truck in the entire segment in any conceivable category. Its powertrain is horrible, its interior space is horrible, it has drum rear brakes, it has a plastic bed, it consistently gets lackluster media reviews, etc. It was a good truck in 2005. Its really old now.

And, it has miserable manual transmission towing capacity.

 

[WXman]

It doesn't have anything to do with the torque or load capacities of the Aisin transmission, or the stability and GVWR of the Gladiator.

No but it does have to do with the clutch clamping force in the D478 trans. I will see if I can find that interview where the engineer explained that the clutch was the thing holding the manual transmission back from getting a higher tow rating.

 

[Pergrem]

Honesty if towing is that big of a deal for anyone, they should skip on mid-sized trucks and go for full sized. Mid-sized trucks are made to tow stuff like open a utility trailer that can carry a couple of atvs, a side-by-side, couple of motorcycle, ski jets and small boat.

Personally I tow two or three track bikes on a 12 foot trailer so my MT I have coming is going to be more than enough.

 

[RedTRex]

No but it does have to do with the clutch clamping force in the D478 trans. I will see if I can find that interview where the engineer explained that the clutch was the thing holding the manual transmission back from getting a higher tow rating.

A different pressure plate should fix that

 

[IceAge]

Why do people keep saying this? The Tacoma is the second worst truck in the entire segment in any conceivable category. Its powertrain is horrible, its interior space is horrible, it has drum rear brakes, it has a plastic bed, it consistently gets lackluster media reviews, etc. It was a good truck in 2005. Its really old now.

And, it has miserable manual transmission towing capacity.

Hey now getting a little personal here lol. The Tacoma had its fun and not fun being the new v-6 motor ain’t so great and I have them in fact the PROs. That being said the Tacoma is to a degree so overrated by the average person. And really only because it’s had the TOYOTA name. Other than that I like my Ford Ranger 19 model more than my TRD 19 model. The Tacoma is just a different truck and the Gladiator is for the moment the KING.

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