Worst on Consumer Reports

[NachoRuby]

I'd like to know what your definition of better driving was because between the two that's the only thing I miss about my Tacoma. The tighter steering, better control over bumpy terrain and roads, and more planted feel in corners was miles ahead of my gladiator even the rear coils soak up the road more nicely than the leafs in the Tacoma. The difference between the two at 85 is the most night and day I've experienced between two similar vehicles.

Well, for starters, I don't regularly hit 85, because that would ge me arrested here (it seriously would). But mainly going around curves, just seemed like the body roll was very extreme. Was yours a TRD pro? Ive always liked Tacomas, so I wanted to like it. It was used 2019, so it was cheaper than the gladiator. So my wallet really wanted me to like it.

The jeep, at least in Rubicon form, doesn't like to cruise super fast. So I'm sure you're correct, the Taco at 85 mph out handles a jeep at 85. The Mojave folks might disagree with me. But I'm just talking regular (for south central pa and western MD) road speeds of 0-75 mph, with some curves and mountains thrown in. The gladiator won our test drive.

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[LostWoods]

Well, for starters, I don't regularly hit 85, because that would ge me arrested here (it seriously would). But mainly going around curves, just seemed like the body roll was very extreme. Was yours a TRD pro? Ive always liked Tacomas, so I wanted to like it. It was used 2019, so it was cheaper than the gladiator. So my wallet really wanted me to like it.

The jeep, at least in Rubicon form, doesn't like to cruise super fast. So I'm sure you're correct, the Taco at 85 mph out handles a jeep at 85. The Mojave folks might disagree with me. But I'm just talking regular (for south central pa and western MD) road speeds of 0-75 mph, with some curves and mountains thrown in. The gladiator won our test drive.

Yeah mine was just an Off Road and having owned it and a 4x4 Sport, they both handled better to me at higher speeds but the leafs can be more harsh at lower speeds. I think my general concern is that at higher speeds, the looser steering is much more worrying and being shaped like a brick doesn't help either. It was a lot more comfortable when I lived in VA where 10 over is a felony and most posted limits are 55-65.

Honestly it, along with a few other things related to a new house purchase, have me debating if I even want to keep the truck. The jack of all trades thing was appealing when we were renting but now I have a truck that can't carry a full sheet or more than 500# before going over GVRW because of the off roady stuff all while compromising on the off road because it's a pickup that needs to be daily driven. We've been starting to look at the car-pickup-toy split instead of relying on one vehicle to do all 3.

 

[DPF140]

Honestly? If you need this sign, I’m fine with nature taking it’s course.

And the real hum dinger... does anyone actually know anyone personally who was trying to purchase horse dewormer for the purposes of thinking it would treat covid... or just another "story" like consumer report "reporting" something with a hiden motive behind what they write. It's like a spiraling circle you can never get out of.

Which always leads me back to... if I can touch it, smell it, see it and experience it... I'll make up my own mind.

 

[DPF140]

I'd like to know what your definition of better driving was because between the two that's the only thing I miss about my Tacoma. The tighter steering, better control over bumpy terrain and roads, and more planted feel in corners was miles ahead of my gladiator even the rear coils soak up the road more nicely than the leafs in the Tacoma. The difference between the two at 85 is the most night and day I've experienced between two similar vehicles.

I'm curious to compare. A family member is waiting to take delivery of a Taco Pro any day... we are going to have to do some comparisons ourselves!

 

[NachoRuby]

I'm curious to compare. A family member is waiting to take delivery of a Taco Pro any day... we are going to have to do some comparisons ourselves!

All the gladiator trims ride quite differently too though. My rubi will be stiffer than your willys. The Mojave will ride differently (most say better) than both. I imagine an overland or HA with the larger wheels will ride differently still. A diesel has to ride at least a bit differently than a 3.6, due to the different weight distribution. I guess you really have to compare like for like.

 

[DPF140]

All the gladiator trims ride quite differently too though. My rubi will be stiffer than your willys. The Mojave will ride differently (most say better) than both. I imagine an overland or HA with the larger wheels will ride differently still. A diesel has to ride at least a bit differently than a 3.6, due to the different weight distribution. I guess you really have to compare like for like.

Interesting point. So far I like how my 3.6L Willy's behaves on the road. I'm really curious and hopeful we "gladiators" are the first small truck to get a hybrid setup "4Xe" as I think it would be a gamechanger for so many scenarios.

 

[NachoRuby]

Interesting point. So far I like how my 3.6L Willy's behaves on the road. I'm really curious and hopeful we "gladiators" are the first small truck to get a hybrid setup "4Xe" as I think it would be a gamechanger for so many scenarios.

Yeah, I don't know enough about Toyotas to know if their different trims have the suspensions tuned as much as jeeps do or not. I'd imagine at least on the offroad trims they are, but I really don't know. I know I like Toyota trucks, it just wasn't for me. I'll probably land an older one some day.

 

[Fastwake]

If you believe CONSUMER REPORTS your a very very shallow person

 

[Klutch]

Have you ever filled out a CR car survey?

Yes, multiple times. It took a little while, but I didn't think it was a big deal. I simply checked a block next to any area where my vehicle had a problem.

Based on your logic, no survey of any kind has any validity whatsoever.

 

[NachoRuby]

Yes, multiple times. It took a little while, but I didn't think it was a big deal. I simply checked a block next to any area where my vehicle had a problem.

Based on your logic, no survey of any kind has any validity whatsoever.

I'm sure the survey is accurate. It's just skewed by how many first time jeep buyers are buying gladiators. That's really the only explanation to why a Wrangler, which is mechanically identical and produced on the same lines, would have a much different rating than a gladiator. They're pretty much the same. People see "Cool! Convertible truck!" And forget it's a jeep, warts and all. I'm under no delusions that these are perfect. But the disparity between wranglers and gladiators is odd. Many-time jeep owners are willing to look over things others aren't. For better or for worse. This was my second "real" jeep after a TJ we parted with a few years back. But I knew what I was getting into. If you're used to Toyota-like drive it and forget it experience, and a quiet ride with never any leaks (roof or axle haha) and no wind noise, it'll be quite disappointing. If you're not used to the solid axle steering experience, and not having independent suspension, it will be disappointing as well.

 

[Wolf Island Diver]

Yes, multiple times. It took a little while, but I didn't think it was a big deal. I simply checked a block next to any area where my vehicle had a problem.

Based on your logic, no survey of any kind has any validity whatsoever.

I’m not saying that at all and this isn’t my opinion or my logic. You’re assuming that there is only one kind of survey methodology or the because I expressed the view (which happens to be uncontroversial) that voluntary surveys are not scientifically rigorous I must dislike all surveys. I don’t even dislike Consumer Reports on the whole. I’m speaking from my educational background in economics/political science and engineering, and my professional experience in operations
research, data science and modsim. I’ve spent a career working with data sets trying to avoid problems that reduce validity. I’ve lead teams designing studies and conducting surveys.

Go to any university on the planet and ask a any social scientist, economist, political scientist or someone who works in OR or data science and they will tell you the same thing. Email the folks at FRED https://fred.stlouisfed.org/ and ask them about survey methodology. Voluntary surveys suffer from self-selection bias and are not considered reliable within all of those fields.

Researchers do conduct surveys all the time that are valid. Many of those political survey calls we get are those kinds of surveys. They’re built around standard, peer-reviewed methodologies. They are attempting to get a representative sample of the total population. This is why they cold call people rather than allow people to contact them. This is why they’re not being done via Buzzfeed or FB.

If CR called a random sample set of the American public or got purchase data from manufacturers and contacted owners like other automotive researchers do, then their surveys and thus ratings would be of better quality. They don’t do that. They rely on self selection within of a specific subset of the total population. It’s classic bad sampling.

Little known to most folks is something called the GSS ( general social survey) https://www.nsf.gov/pubs/2007/nsf0748/nsf0748_3.pdf
It’s the gold standard for social science data, it’s used to shape public policy that affects many aspects of our lives. It exceptionally important and it’s survey-based. Any political science undergrad will spend a lot of time with this data.

You’ve probably heard of “consumer confidence.” This too is based on surveys. https://www.conference-board.org/topics/consumer-confidence. There’s the ASM https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/asm.html, again critical to understanding what is happening in the economy.

Survey data is critical to the proper functioning of society, the economy and federal and state governments. But like any data collection tool, it has to be rigorous to be valid and applicable

As far as automotive data, there are also other sources. JD Power is a mixed bag. Some of their methodologies are better in that they try and get a more representative sample, but their relationship with the industry presents a potential conflict of interest. The government also collects statistics on vehicle repair and safety issues.

I would argue that people have to take a look at a lot of sources when buying a car. I’m not saying that CR is never a valuable source. I took the CR survey obviously because I’m a CR member. But I do recognize that there are some problems there and as someone who is trained and worked in some of the above mentioned fields, CRs casual glossing over of the limits of their surveys reeks of institutional arrogance and I find that troubling.

 

[F&D]

I’m not saying that at all and this isn’t my opinion or my logic. You’re assuming that there is only one kind of survey methodology or the because I expressed the view (which happens to be uncontroversial) that voluntary surveys are not scientifically rigorous I must dislike all surveys. I don’t even dislike Consumer Reports on the whole. I’m speaking from my educational background in economics/political science and engineering, and my professional experience in operations
research, data science and modsim. I’ve spent a career working with data sets trying to avoid problems that reduce validity. I’ve lead teams designing studies and conducting surveys.

Go to any university on the planet and ask a any social scientist, economist, political scientist or someone who works in OR or data science and they will tell you the same thing. Email the folks at FRED https://fred.stlouisfed.org/ and ask them about survey methodology. Voluntary surveys suffer from self-selection bias and are not considered reliable within all of those fields.

Researchers do conduct surveys all the time that are valid. Many of those political survey calls we get are those kinds of surveys. They’re built around standard, peer-reviewed methodologies. They are attempting to get a representative sample of the total population. This is why they cold call people rather than allow people to contact them. This is why they’re not being done via Buzzfeed or FB.

If CR called a random sample set of the American public or got purchase data from manufacturers and contacted owners like other automotive researchers do, then their surveys and thus ratings would be of better quality. They don’t do that. They rely on self selection within of a specific subset of the total population. It’s classic bad sampling.

Little known to most folks is something called the GSS ( general social survey) https://www.nsf.gov/pubs/2007/nsf0748/nsf0748_3.pdf
It’s the gold standard for social science data, it’s used to shape public policy that affects many aspects of our lives. It exceptionally important and it’s survey-based. Any political science undergrad will spend a lot of time with this data.

You’ve probably heard of “consumer confidence.” This too is based on surveys. https://www.conference-board.org/topics/consumer-confidence. There’s the ASM https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/asm.html, again critical to understanding what is happening in the economy.

Survey data is critical to the proper functioning of society, the economy and federal and state governments. But like any data collection tool, it has to be rigorous to be valid and applicable

As far as automotive data, there are also other sources. JD Power is a mixed bag. Some of their methodologies are better in that they try and get a more representative sample, but their relationship with the industry presents a potential conflict of interest. The government also collects statistics on vehicle repair and safety issues.

I would argue that people have to take a look at a lot of sources when buying a car. I’m not saying that CR is never a valuable source. I took the CR survey obviously because I’m a CR member. But I do recognize that there are some problems there and as someone who is trained and worked in some of the above mentioned fields, CRs casual glossing over of the limits of their surveys reeks of institutional arrogance and I find that troubling.

Wolf island I am curious which model of Gladiator did you purchase? The reason I ask is was it a logical purchase or based on the some what undefinable lure of a Jeep. I would think the later would be difficult to pin down in a survey. But this certainly is not my expertise.

 

[Wolf Island Diver]

Wolf island I am curious which model of Gladiator did you purchase? The reason I ask is was it a logical purchase or based on the some what undefinable lure of a Jeep. I would think the later would be difficult to pin down in a survey. But this certainly is not my expertise.

I’m not exactly sure how to take your question. I’ve owned 5 Jeeps. My current one is a JTRD. Both practical and emotional factors compelled me to buy them. I would assume this makes me similar to most people. I’ve never tried to quantify or capture it in some scientific way and I think that would be weird, frankly.

Lots of folks have written about why people like Jeeps and frankly a lot of reviewers who have trashed Jeeps have also paid respect to to the attributes and even admitted that they get it. I appreciate that.

At times I also appreciate CRs rather dry,
just the facts, reporting. But I also wish they had a little more sensitivity to what James May calls “fizz” https://www.topgear.com/car-news/james-may/james’s-fizzy-logic?amp=1

My Jeep gives me the fizz. I’m not arguing that anyone should attempt to capture fizz in a survey. Im only arguing that regardless of what you do capture in a survey, it should be done properly. While CR may fail to capture
something intangible or emotional in their reporting my point was to question some of the validity of what they do purport to capture and in fact stake their reputation on. That is, unbiased and objective data. I think a lot of their data is flawed for reasons I’ve already stated.

As to my motivation, this thread is about Jeep being rated at the the absolute bottom of CRs reliability ratings. This might understandably make some reasonable people concerned about a purchase that could be upwards of $70k.

It also might feel bad for enthusiasts like us to have our vehicles come in dead last. Sort of like your football team never winning a game. Many people don’t care at all about it. But we showed up to this thread so at least we care that much, right?

My initial contribution to the discussion was simply to say that CRs rating methodology is flawed and give reasons why. It was my hope that this would be some comfort to folks or at least provide some specific reasons beyond “f@$& CR.” People should enjoy their Jeeps and not worry about CR or the bad rating. Not only because life short and Jeeps are great, but because they’re objectively better cars than CR flawed survey says they are.

 

[F&D]

I’m not exactly sure how to take your question. I’ve owned 5 Jeeps. My current one is a JTRD. Both practical and emotional factors compelled me to buy them. I would assume this makes me similar to most people. I’ve never tried to quantify or capture it in some scientific way and I think that would be weird, frankly.

Lots of folks have written about why people like Jeeps and frankly a lot of reviewers who have trashed Jeeps have also paid respect to to the attributes and even admitted that they get it. I appreciate that.

At times I also appreciate CRs rather dry,
just the facts, reporting. But I also wish they had a little more sensitivity to what James May calls “fizz” https://www.topgear.com/car-news/james-may/james’s-fizzy-logic?amp=1

My Jeep gives me the fizz. I’m not arguing that anyone should attempt to capture fizz in a survey. Im only arguing that regardless of what you do capture in a survey, it should be done properly. While CR may fail to capture
something intangible or emotional in their reporting my point was to question some of the validity of what they do purport to capture and in fact stake their reputation on. That is, unbiased and objective data. I think a lot of their data is flawed for reasons I’ve already stated.

As to my motivation, this thread is about Jeep being rated at the the absolute bottom of CRs reliability ratings. This might understandably make some reasonable people concerned about a purchase that could be upwards of $70k.

It also might feel bad for enthusiasts like us to have our vehicles come in dead last. Sort of like your football team never winning a game. Many people don’t care at all about it. But we showed up to this thread so at least we care that much, right?

My initial contribution to the discussion was simply to say that CRs rating methodology is flawed and give reasons why. It was my hope that this would be some comfort to folks or at least provide some specific reasons beyond “f@$& CR.” People should enjoy their Jeeps and not worry about CR or the bad rating. Not only because life short and Jeeps are great, but because they’re objectively better cars than CR flawed survey says they are.

Life is short and Jeeps are great sums it up for me. Thanks

 

[Geoarch]

As someone who sold cars I can tell you that that makes a HUGE amount of sense.

Someone isn't going to come in and tell you that the Gladiator is slower, 10k more expensive, and doesn't do as well in crash testing as the (Brand X) pickup.

The term is cross shopping. I don't think its happening much. Because by the numbers the Wrangler / Gladiator doesn't make much sense.

When I sold cars, I quickly learned that much of the sales training that they taught us was crap. Oh, they will cross shop the Saab convertible against the Infinity, Lexus, and Benz convertible, the sales trainers would say.

But in the end, I didn't lose sales to "competitive" cars. I often lost sales to cars that were nothing like the Saab convertible. I lost one deal to a Corvette. Another to an ESCALADE!!!.

When you have a vehicle that is primarily purchased based on WANTS not needs. There is no logic to the buying decision.

But we try, we try and rationalize, and in the end as you say: "I want it".

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