Jeep Gladiator Handling Problem

[Gvsukids]

No sir, not a conversation to “manage expectations”. A conversation to educate, assist/help others, increase awareness, and very possibly improve the safety factor of the Jeep. I’m glad your rig handles well but mine did not because of a seemingly simple “kit”.

Why not take it to the dealership when you had these problems and have them sort it out?

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[SkyKing]

Why not take it to the dealership when you had these problems and have them sort it out?

they blew it off as… as many will say…
“It’s a Jeep what do you expect”…

The same dealership that changed the gearbox and left the steering shaft loose, put the gearbox on the left fender and scratched the crap out of it, had to tighten the gearbox mounting bolts after several months, replaced the batteries and scratched the right fenders all to hell… and there’s more.
Gearbox #2 self destructed internally. Tie rod from factory was not secure in mount… it borderline $hit show….

I simply want to raise awareness for others that might be experiencing a poor driving Jeep when the fix might be relatively simple.
A 2” lift will likely include new lower control arms but the “leveling kit” did not and nothing is mentioned. I’ve read that caster may vary between models or even in the manufacturing process of the axle/mounts.

 

[Gvsukids]

they blew it off as… as many will say…
“It’s a Jeep what do you expect”…

The same dealership that changed the gearbox and left the steering shaft loose, put the gearbox on the left fender and scratched the crap out of it, had to tighten the gearbox mounting bolts after several months, replaced the batteries and scratched the right fenders all to hell… and there’s more.
Gearbox #2 self destructed internally. Tie rod from factory was not secure in mount… it borderline $hit show….

I simply want to raise awareness for others that might be experiencing a poor driving Jeep when the fix might be relatively simple.
A 2” lift will likely include new lower control arms but the “leveling kit” did not and nothing is mentioned. I’ve read that caster may vary between models or even in the manufacturing process of the axle/mounts.

Should've found a different dealership. This would've been an easy fix.

 

[MPMB]

Bingo - keep them parallel to each other, and parallel to the ground. Yes.

Do people wonder why being parallel to the ground is important? It minimizes movement of the axle. If you have angled control arms, under movement they'll move more front to rear as the arm goes up and down through the arc. That creates funky angles and will move the axle sideways (yaw axis), which changes the direction of the vehicle.

That's why in racing we always squared the rear end when we moved the trailing arms as little as a 1/4 degree.

Yup - that's where the factory puts it. Even with the longer lower control arms you can't get over 5 degrees.

I'm a little rusty on geometry, but also - doesn't running a lot of caster make the vehicle easier to track straight, but the tradeoff is a lot more effort in turning? Going from 5 or even 6 to 8 degrees is a significant amount. Can't imagine the steering components like that.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Do people wonder why being parallel to the ground is important? It minimizes movement of the axle. If you have angled control arms, under movement they'll move more front to rear as the arm goes up and down through the arc. That creates funky angles and will move the axle sideways (yaw axis), which changes the direction of the vehicle.

That's why in racing we always squared the rear end when we moved the trailing arms as little as a 1/4 degree.

Get into facts, science, math or geometry and it's almost as if some Jeep folks would believe it even less...... but there's a reason the factory puts these out with parallel arms, parallel to the ground (well, as much as is possible or practical. There's also compromises that have to be made to get things to fit now and then)
And you'll have the "but but what about......" or "I didn't and mine is fine so you don't have to, either" crowd.
I guess I could pull out my college books on steering, suspension and geometry but I figure - why bother.

I'm a little rusty on geometry, but also - doesn't running a lot of caster make the vehicle easier to track straight, but the tradeoff is a lot more effort in turning? Going from 5 or even 6 to 8 degrees is a significant amount. Can't imagine the steering components like that.

Yes - makes it want to track straight more readily, but also harder to steer so it's a much larger load on the steering gear and requires higher pressures from the pump. That means anything connecting the steering gear to the wheels is under more stress. Bigger, wider tires mean larger footprint which means more friction between tire and road surface, then add too much caster and you are pivoting out a ways and lifting the truck while turning.
Too much also actually makes wobble more likely - caster wobble. It's real and if you go deep enough into the books, they'll talk of it. Caster wobble is more likely the more caster you have. So there's a sweet spot - enough to make it track true, but not enough to stress parts or risk caster wobble.
If you really love geometry and math - then add SAI, scrub radius and other factors in.

On a highway that's pretty flat with little to no road crown, I can let go of my steering wheel and it will track straight for quite a ways. I'm sitting under 5.
I could add some more caster, but frankly, it's fine how it is. I don't "need" more.
I don't see massive caster as a right of passage like a handful will.
If everything else was correct and proper and not a hodge-podge of parts tossed in without understanding why - only just to get it higher, then that much isn't needed.
It makes them feel good, though, and is a talking point.

When the arms aren't parallel or parallel to the ground, then each dip or rise causes the axle to move forward or backward more - and that moves the axle closer to or farther from the pitman arm on the steering gear among other changes
Lifts also mean the drag link from the pitman arm to that right knuckle is also operating at more of an angle - every rise and fall of that axle compared to the frame swings that drag link in an arc, changing the effective distance from steering knuckle to pitman.

Many of the steering problems with Jeeps are self-induced - by the owners.
It's either a massive rock crawler, or a fantastic daily driver and highway truck. Awfully hard to be both without some thinking and planning.

 

[Mad Mac]

Incessant wandering is making me hate my 2021 JTR
that I bought for $49,000 used in January with 15,000 miles on it.
Removed the leveling kit, traded 35s for stock wheels and tires,
snugged up the steering gear box and reduced steering wheel slack
from three inches to one inch.
And a front end alignment at a 4x4 specialty shop.
Better but still no joy.

Even used, it was the most I ever spent for a vehicle
and has been so disappointing.
I am not new to Jeep solid front axles.
My used 1998 TJ Sahara that I bought nine years ago
for $7000 with 115,000 miles on it
is a pleasure to drive relatively speaking.

Not expecting a solution.
I just needed to vent.

Ten years ago
my cousin bought a ragged out YJ.
I ordered a Quadratec catalog
to give to him as a joke
but I made the mistake of reading it first.
Big mistake.

 

[Lunentucker]

Never seen the castor @6 degrees off the factory line. Usually closer to 4.5 off the factory line. We know that castor is always an issue, especially as soon as you do any lift. Having castor at 5 degrees or higher fixes most of the issues with some people pushing more towards 5.5 to 6 degrees. and castor cant be set unless you install adjustable LCA's or drill the holes for cam bolts. Bigger and heavier tires add to the issue when castor is less than optimal. So the prognosis here is that by lifting, the ride issues was self induced.
BTW, I had a 2020 Overland and had a factory 2" lift installed. Even with the longer LCA's in the kit, the castor was less than optimal and I installed Teraflex adjustable LCA's and move the castor back out to 5-5.5. I didnt have any issues with my steering gearbox and it was the aluminum one. Maybe I was lucky.

 

[Lunentucker]

There's a German company that's putting together a full kit for Jeeps focused on better handling and correct geometry.
They were at SEMA, and they're in late stage testing.
I imagine it will be quite expensive.

I learned my lessons through research and trial and error.

My do-over would be something like this:

1-3 are day one of ownership. 4-5 are as needed.

1. Get a good torque wrench and whatever other tools needed, and go over every single fastener, front and back. Suspension, steering, brakes... everything. I don't think Toledo has a calibrated torque wrench in the entire plant.

2. DIY alignment, experimenting with slight toe out to slight toe in, at or just beyond factory specs.

3. Lower tire pressures. 37 PSI on the factory 33's is stupid. 32-34 warmed up is a good place to be.

4. Geometry correction brackets, front and rear, even if it's a factory Rubicon or Mojave. Adjustable control arms correct caster, and that's fine for a factory setup, but brackets keep your suspension properly aligned and reduce road and trail fatigue on your rig and you.

4. Tighten the steering box free play if need be.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

4. Tighten the steering box free play if need be.

That's supposed to be a preload - not free play.
It's a very small preload, measured in single digit inch pounds, but it's a preload non-the-less.

Think about what I said there - I'm sure you'll get it, what I'm saying.

2. DIY alignment, experimenting with slight toe out to slight toe in, at or just beyond factory specs.

If you've changed tire sizes beyond typical factory, or changes wheels (backset, etc.) then this can be a big player and the factory toe settings need to be tweaked.

Factory settings are for factory tire size range, (note that even factory specs have a +/- to them) and factory wheels and so on.

In other words, we're on the same page.

3. Lower tire pressures. 37 PSI on the factory 33's is stupid. 32-34 warmed up is a good place to be.

I run about 35 or so on my tires - and they are smaller than the factory 33s. Larger footprints suggest lower PSI.
My tires are now wearing perfectly even, no oddities, straight across, no feathering, no extra wear in the middle nor on the outer treads.

 

[Hootbro]

Spacer leveling kits have always been a crapshoot in my opinion. Ran the Teraflex 1.5" kit early on with my 2020 Gladiator JT and just made it feel like it was riding with no suspension travel at all. Quickly chucked it and and went with 2"/1" Eibach lift springs and adjustable lower control arms that made a night and day difference.

 

[MPMB]

It's either a massive rock crawler, or a fantastic daily driver and highway truck. Awfully hard to be both without some thinking and planning.

Suspension is the art of compromise.

Things I remember from oval racing - we ran split caster, about 1/2 a degree, less on the left. 2.5 and 3. Made the car naturally turn left. When we went road-course racing, we had to take that all out.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Suspension is the art of compromise.

Things I remember from oval racing - we ran split caster, about 1/2 a degree, less on the left. 2.5 and 3. Made the car naturally turn left. When we went road-course racing, we had to take that all out.

You should see the guys try to get 8 degrees caster on an AMX for the drag strip. Those strut rods just don't have that many threads on them and to push the lower control arm that far is moving it into an angle that they just weren't made to deal with. Then of course they swing in on a horizontal arc and throw camber beyond any ability to adjust because the eccentrics only have so much pull or push to them.

 

[Idlethunder]

I’m writing to inform and share a piece of my Jeep story.

2020 Gladiator Overland.

Not long after I purchased my Gladiator I installed a Teraflex 1.5” leveling kit. I wasn’t thrilled by the factory stance. I understood the reason but felt a leveling kit and new tires would be the start of personalizing my Gladiator. I also ordered a ARE bed cap. I set my Jeep up to flat tow behind my motor coach

https://teraflex.com/jt-1-5-performance-spacer-leveling-kit-no-shocks.html

From the beginning I’ve experienced trouble with OEM steering components and bad gearboxes. I’m on gearbox #3.
I’ve installed SteerSmarts steering and suspension components and multiple aftermarket shocks but the Jeep never handled properly for me, especially at highway speeds. I upgraded the rear sway bar and all four sway bar links.

After almost four years, today I solved my handling problems.
I installed Teraflex adjustable lower control arms.

https://teraflex.com/jl-jt-alpine-short-control-arm-kit-front-lower-0-4-5-lift.html

I adjusted the new arms 3/8” longer than the OEM arms. This length will likely place the caster closer to 8°.

Now the Jeep is rock solid at 80 mph. No more wandering. Time will tell and today wind wasn’t a big factor.

I’ve been told, It appears the root cause of my handling problem was caster. Factory sets caster at approximately 6° by the length of the lower control arms. When I lifter the front end 1.5” it changed the caster on my Jeep enough to be a nightmare at highway speeds.

The tech support at Teraflex guided me to the solution.
Maybe this is common knowledge but might not be for the common Jeep owner. Now I know and I hope this information helps someone else!
Good luck and be safe!
JK

Additional mods to my Gladiator Overland.
SteerSmart:
Yeti HD Tie Rod
Steering Damper
YETI HD Drag Link with Griffin Attenuator
YETI HD Track Bar Front and Rear
Most important mod…
YETI XD™ JT SECTOR SHAFT BRACE WITH FRAME SIDE TRACK BAR REINFORCEMENT BRACKET

BRIDGESTONE DUELER H/T LT275/70R18 M+S

HELLWIG Rear Stabalizer Bar

CORE 4X4 Sway Bar Links Front and Rear

Soon will be installing four FALCON SP2 3.3 Fast Adjust Piggy Back Shocks

Glad to see you finally got it where you like it!

 

[Rob_R]

3. Lower tire pressures. 37 PSI on the factory 33's is stupid. 32-34 warmed up is a good place to be.

This was the magic elixir that allowed me to enjoy the ride in my '23 JTR. When I lowered the tire pressure on the factory 33s, not only did the wandering disappear, but the on-road ride quality improved dramatically. My JTR has 100% stock suspension and wheels/tires. 32 PSI hot seems to be the sweet spot for me. Mileage at 5500 miles is right at 18.X MPG combined with 32 PSI hot. I measured tire tread temperatures often in the middle of the summer and the temps were consistent across the width at approximately 118°F while running 32 PSI hot.

 

[Swordfish44]

Well be aware "simple" or "cheap" will yield those same results,

This is thread is on par with members that discuss the MPGs they get.

You bought a lower end model with over expectation of the the results of paying less up front and then throw the parts cannon at it.

Before you fire back with some smarty ass comment...........go drive a stock Mojave you didn't want to pay extra for up front. I'll wait for a non-bias response.

The money you have spent since then, WAY FAR surpassed what you would have spent for a Mojave on a 2" AEV spacer lift (under $600), Mopar LCAs (under $80) and Fox Ats steering stabilizer (about $400). So tally up the cost of parts/labor you've spent thus far with sub standard results.

My experience and many others will vouch for..........I have what I want, drives like a Cadillac at 80-90 mph and is a trail boss. Feel free to drop into the Mojave section and I'll be validated. I'm not talking shit, straight truth. I have nothing to gain from talking shit......because well I didn't waste money on unneeded shit in my build.

Just like buying stocks, bonds or crypto currencies........due dalliance is you money maker

What makes you think the Mojave is the best on road handling? LOL!!!! HIgh Altitude would be the correct answer. Or any base model like the sport.

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