Wandering Wheel on a Stock 2023 JT Rubicon?

[RubyLu]

Friends, we really appreciate any advice you can offer on an ongoing sloppy steering issue with our new 2023 Gladiator Rubicon with 6K miles. The issue has been there since our JT was purchased new. This JT has not been modified, except to the Rubicon trim level at the Jeep factory, which included a slight lift on Dana 44 wide front and rear axles. Stock tires are Falken Wildpeak all-terrain LT285/70R17C 33” with pressures at 37/37 PSI factory spec. Initial symptom was that the Jeep would constantly wander back and forth in its lane like a slalom skier. It was very difficult to keep it in its lane, particular at highway speeds. If one drove over a bridge expansion joint or bump at speed on a curve or with a crosswind, a brief shimmy was evident in the steering wheel and the Jeep definitely felt unsafe, but no death wobble yet. On longer highway trips, constant work became very tiring with constant steering wheel inputs to try and keep the Jeep centered in its lane. This 2023 model had the newer steel steering box.

Several trips to the Jeep dealer resulted in an inspection and replacement of the steering damper, which made no difference, of course. Since the dealer stopped responding to me when I requested to be put in contact with the Jeep regional rep, and since my wife was growing increasingly uneasy driving her Gladiator with winter approaching here in the Northeast, I took it upon myself to install the Steer Smarts Yeti sector shaft reinforcing brace/track bar mount and also their Yeti heavy duty track bar. This improved the steering to a safer feeling drive, with less need for steering input correction. But the truck still wandered noticeably, particularly at highway speed and especially in bumpy and windy conditions.

Since these Yeti parts were installed we also has a set of four new studded Copper Discover Snow Claw LT285/70R17 33” snow tires mounted (same size as stock tires). Tire pressure still at factory spec 37/37 PSI and the ride feels a bit softer, but with the exact same wandering wheel. While turning the steering wheel, it does not seem to want to return itself to center, so I did a quick alignment check. Toe-in is approx 1/8”, caster is -3 to -4 degrees from 90, and pinion angle is +3 degrees above level.

My guess here is that when the Jeep geniuses added a couple of inches of lift for the Rubicon trim level, they ignored the increased steering load for the heavier axles and change in geometry, creating our sloppy steering. My next step is to have a professional check the front-end alignment and see if there is any way to increase the negative caster slightly. I could fine no info nor see anything on the factory control arms which would indicate this adjustment is possible. If not, I’m considering swapping in a set of adjustable lower control arms to get 5 to 6 degrees of negative caster, which I believe may be the factory spec for the sport trim level. Though I am concerned about bringing the pinion angle closer to level and less straight with the front drive shaft.

I am also aware of the steering backlash adjustment, but the wheel itself seems to have very little play when inspecting Pitman arm movement. Potential electronic reprogramming of the electric steering pump response has also bee noted, but I prefer not to go there until I rule out alignment. My question to you, friends, is am I on the right track to dial-in our steering? Would you recommend an increased negative caster angle to help the steering wheel return, and reduce the wandering? If so, how much negative caster? Is there a particular lower control arm I should be looking at it came to that? Many thanks!

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[ALT2870]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but the Rubicon does not have a factory installed lift. Sure the shocks and springs may be different from say a Sport or Willys but I've never noticed a significant difference in height between all the trims that are stock. There is the Mopar 2" Lift that the dealer can install but the factory doesn't do that.

I would do what you said near the end and have a shop check the alignment.

The Mojave and Max Tows also have the wide 44's and don't have issues granted the Mojave suspension is more heavy duty so I'd probably eliminate that as a possibility for now.

 

[Lunentucker]

The last new torque wrench shipped to the Toledo plant was made of wood.
Dealers love that $35 Stabilizer as the "calling it fixed" quick and dirty.

Lower the tire pressure to 33.
Toe OUT slightly. Assuming you're measuring at the outer edges of the tires, try 1/16" toe out.
You want positive caster - 5-6 degrees of it.
You cannot adjust caster without adjustable control arms, longer control arms, or geometry correction brackets.

Check the ball joints, sector shaft nut, tie rod ends, swaybar link bolts, wheel bearings, and every other steering and suspension-related fastener. Control arms need to be torqued with tires on the ground under the full weight of the vehicle.

Death Wobble, DW, Death Wobble, DW, Death Wobble, Shimmy, Wander, Drift, Bump Steer | Jeep Gladiator Forum - JeepGladiatorForum.com

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/?-2020-2023-jt-gladiator-torque-values-all-of-them-in-one-place.67915/

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/toe-in-vs-toe-out.66290/

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/going-digital-on-toe-settings.66231/

 

[Lunentucker]

The Mojave and Max Tows also have the wide 44's and don't have issues

The Mojave comes with drift and wander as standard factory equipment.

 

[Hootbro]

My guess here is that when the Jeep geniuses added a couple of inches of lift for the Rubicon trim level, they ignored the increased steering load for the heavier axles and change in geometry, creating our sloppy steering.

Rubicon suspension is just that, a Rubicon suspension and not a "lift" as you like to call it. Sure it rides a bit higher than a Sport, but they engineered it properly to account for it. Currently on my second Gladiator Rubicon and other than adjusting the tire pressure down from the 42 PSI they ship with to factory specs, I have had no wandering issue and about all Rubicon owners do not have it either.

I am not discounting you have a issue, just it is not a flawed engineering issue of the Rubicon model like you infer.

 

[Lunentucker]

If one drove over a bridge expansion joint or bump at speed on a curve or with a crosswind, a brief shimmy was evident in the steering wheel and the Jeep definitely felt unsafe, but no death wobble yet.

THAT is your clue to check every component and every fastener, including ball joints.

And this would've been a wiser choice on the brace, IMO.
https://metalcloak.com/sector-shaft-brace-jl-wrangler-jt-gladiator.html

 

[jjdustr340]

Drop about $90 on the LCAs from the Mopar lift kit and enjoy the improvement.
I found out about them in the JL Forum as a type of "fix" to the wander for the wife's 2020 JLU. Made a massive improvement, then when Jeep finally did the TSB to replace the aluminum gear box, that combined with the Mopar LCAs made for hell of a nice ride.
I ended up putting a set on my 80AE JT and that drove better than any Jeep I've ever driven. Better believe I'm putting a set in the Mojave JT I just purchased.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Friends, we really appreciate any advice you can offer on an ongoing sloppy steering issue with our new 2023 Gladiator Rubicon with 6K miles. The issue has been there since our JT was purchased new. This JT has not been modified, except to the Rubicon trim level at the Jeep factory, which included a slight lift on Dana 44 wide front and rear axles. Stock tires are Falken Wildpeak all-terrain LT285/70R17C 33” with pressures at 37/37 PSI factory spec. Initial symptom was that the Jeep would constantly wander back and forth in its lane like a slalom skier. It was very difficult to keep it in its lane, particular at highway speeds. If one drove over a bridge expansion joint or bump at speed on a curve or with a crosswind, a brief shimmy was evident in the steering wheel and the Jeep definitely felt unsafe, but no death wobble yet. On longer highway trips, constant work became very tiring with constant steering wheel inputs to try and keep the Jeep centered in its lane. This 2023 model had the newer steel steering box.

Several trips to the Jeep dealer resulted in an inspection and replacement of the steering damper, which made no difference, of course. Since the dealer stopped responding to me when I requested to be put in contact with the Jeep regional rep, and since my wife was growing increasingly uneasy driving her Gladiator with winter approaching here in the Northeast, I took it upon myself to install the Steer Smarts Yeti sector shaft reinforcing brace/track bar mount and also their Yeti heavy duty track bar. This improved the steering to a safer feeling drive, with less need for steering input correction. But the truck still wandered noticeably, particularly at highway speed and especially in bumpy and windy conditions.

Since these Yeti parts were installed we also has a set of four new studded Copper Discover Snow Claw LT285/70R17 33” snow tires mounted (same size as stock tires). Tire pressure still at factory spec 37/37 PSI and the ride feels a bit softer, but with the exact same wandering wheel. While turning the steering wheel, it does not seem to want to return itself to center, so I did a quick alignment check. Toe-in is approx 1/8”, caster is -3 to -4 degrees from 90, and pinion angle is +3 degrees above level.

My guess here is that when the Jeep geniuses added a couple of inches of lift for the Rubicon trim level, they ignored the increased steering load for the heavier axles and change in geometry, creating our sloppy steering. My next step is to have a professional check the front-end alignment and see if there is any way to increase the negative caster slightly. I could fine no info nor see anything on the factory control arms which would indicate this adjustment is possible. If not, I’m considering swapping in a set of adjustable lower control arms to get 5 to 6 degrees of negative caster, which I believe may be the factory spec for the sport trim level. Though I am concerned about bringing the pinion angle closer to level and less straight with the front drive shaft.

I am also aware of the steering backlash adjustment, but the wheel itself seems to have very little play when inspecting Pitman arm movement. Potential electronic reprogramming of the electric steering pump response has also bee noted, but I prefer not to go there until I rule out alignment. My question to you, friends, is am I on the right track to dial-in our steering? Would you recommend an increased negative caster angle to help the steering wheel return, and reduce the wandering? If so, how much negative caster? Is there a particular lower control arm I should be looking at it came to that? Many thanks!

There is NO lift installed at the factory. Period.
There is no reprogramming to be done, either - not sure where that came from, but it's bogus "info".
The "wide axles" are standard under Rubicon, Mojave, high altitude, and Sport with max tow. It's not an upgrade.

In short, you stated out with a basic stock Gladiator Rubicon. No big deal, not particularly special.

The steering adjustment is not backlash. it's preload. If there's no play in the steering gear, there's no need to touch it. There should be 0 play.
Don't mess with the pinion angle.
Not sure where you got your information, but you need to pretty much ignore everything you think you know - other than perhaps an increase in caster with longer LCAs.

Why are you concerned about the Rubicon vs. Sport? There's no factory lift and the Rubicon all come out of the factory exactly as they should, no lift, just a bit higher spring rate to handle the weight and give it more "stance".
Stop comparing - just don't do it!

 

[Jaxmax]

Geeze Bill, give Adam a break, he just bought a 23 Rubicon and has an issue from brand new, he confirmed that there was nothing done on the truck, he assumes like most do that there are upgrades on a Rubicon which is not on other trims,there are. Others have assumed the Rubicon is a bit higher then a sport in suspension and tires, a Mojave is stated to be one inch higher then a Rubicon, I have assumed the Rubicon might be an inch higher. He detailed that the truck was bought new has been dealing with dealer for 6000 miles with no results and now has taken to adding things trying to fix it himself. Here’s advice, listen to Lunentucker either take it to another dealer as next step, have the factory parts you swapped in your truck in case they ask, psi at factory 37, and have them look at the suspension and steering tightness, let them say what the problem is and have it fixed under warranty as your selling dealer should have. If or when that fails take it to a good shop to have a look at it, it started out the gate , there is something defective or loose. It is not right and won’t get better but only worse….Jack

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Geeze Bill, give Adam a break, he just bought a 23 Rubicon and has an issue from brand new, he confirmed that there was nothing done on the truck, he assumes like most do that there are upgrades on a Rubicon which is not on other trims,there are. Others have assumed the Rubicon is a bit higher then a sport in suspension and tires, a Mojave is stated to be one inch higher then a Rubicon, I have assumed the Rubicon might be an inch higher. He detailed that the truck was bought new has been dealing with dealer for 6000 miles with no results and now has taken to adding things trying to fix it himself. Here’s advice, listen to Lunentucker either take it to another dealer as next step, have the factory parts you swapped in your truck in case they ask, psi at factory 37, and have them look at the suspension and steering tightness, let them say what the problem is and have it fixed under warranty as your selling dealer should have. If or when that fails take it to a good shop to have a look at it, it started out the gate , there is something defective or loose. It is not right and won’t get better but only worse….Jack

He's likely been TOLD or READ that bad info - perhaps by a dealer or whatever. But as long as he believes that stuff, he'll never get to where the real issue is.
Sounds like reading too many things on the internet - the bit about a software update or fix, etc. - all of that has to be totally forgotten and ignored.

Others have assumed the Rubicon is a bit higher then a
in suspension and tires

That's because it's true - the tires are taller on a Rubicon than a sport and due to the springs under the Rubicon it will sit a bit higher.
I've measured at other points, and the Rubicon does sit higher. I measured my receiver height and compared to Rubicons on a dealer lot and there was a difference - not just tires. (tires account for about 1/4")

Really, the best bet is ignore anything he came in here being told, hearing or reading (even if it came from a dealer) and start from scratch.

Toe-in is approx 1/8”, caster is -3 to -4 degrees from 90, and pinion angle is +3 degrees above level.

You can't change pinion angle without changing caster. Ignore the pinion angle and deal with caster.
Toe is fine, don't mess with pinion angle - the biggest thing is keeping the u-joints happy. Pinion angle won't do anything at all with handling or street/highway use. It doesn't matter.

Caster should be positive over 4.
How are you measuring caster? I hope you don't have negative caster. You need positive caster.

My guess here is that when the Jeep geniuses added a couple of inches of lift for the Rubicon trim level, they ignored the increased steering load for the heavier axles and change in geometry, creating our sloppy steering

Sorry, no. There's no increased steering load for the 'heavier axles". They are wider, but that's about it. wider axles don't increase steering load.
It also doesn't change geometry to the point of any steering wander. Caster is likely the issue - you need POSITIVE but say you have negative.

Would you recommend an increased negative caster angle to help the steering wheel return, and reduce the wandering? If so, how much negative caster?

No, you want POSITIVE caster and closer to 5 than 4.
Where did you see that you need negative? And how are you measuring caster at home to read negative that far?

Something smells off here................

 

[RJinPV]

I had a similar experience with wander on my new 2023 JTR, although maybe not quite as bad because I never thought it was dangerous. After a few months hoping it might be a tire break in issue I had the dealer check it out. The alignment was out and they readjusted it. That corrected my problem.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I had a similar experience with wander on my new 2023 JTR, although maybe not quite as bad because I never thought it was dangerous. After a few months hoping it might be a tire break in issue I had the dealer check it out. The alignment was out and they readjusted it. That corrected my problem.

Since all they can do at a dealership is set TOE, what did they do?

They can't align these without swapping parts.

 

[RJinPV]

Since all they can do at a dealership is set TOE, what did they do?

They can't align these without swapping parts.

No parts were swapped. They adjusted the toe settings.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

No parts were swapped. They adjusted the toe settings.

what was it originally and what was the result? Just curious.
They should have given you a printout...........

 

[RJinPV]

what was it originally and what was the result? Just curious.
They should have given you a printout...........

Dang. I just checked my files and I can't find that repair order. All I remember is the repair order stated that they adjusted the toe settings to spec.

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