Clayton Springs On Bricks/Cobblestones

[kevman65]

If your springs are overly stiff, a shock can NOT soften the ride.

You want to start with softer springs, and as I always say, get adjustable shocks so you can change the settings with the weight or terrain.

Everyone that goes with stiffer springs for the load, is always going to have a stiff ride.
Yes you can play with air in tires and adjust your shocks, but you can't make it softer than the springs installed.

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[Gizmo]

I have found over years of trying to get a good ride its hard to beat Metalcloak Duroflex bushings. Their control arms alone will soften the ride of a stock Jeep. My MOPAR lift springs with a combo of Core front lowers and track bar with JJ's and MC front uppers and rear lowers and Eibach feels like it did before I touched a bolt on this rig .Upper rears next . I used MC on many previous Jeeps and never found a better set of replacement arms ride wise.

 

[chorky]

Everyone that goes with stiffer springs for the load, is always going to have a stiff ride.
Yes you can play with air in tires and adjust your shocks, but you can't make it softer than the springs installed.

I dont know that I would entirely agree with this. Yes a higher spring rate will mean more stiffness, but unless your spring rate is 10 times that of your needs, it's a little misleading saying stiff springs equal a stiff ride.

I have 'stiff' springs. AEV HD's just swapped in a few weeks ago. As expected it is more stiff, but still fully flexes. But is it uncomfortable stiff? Not at all. For the weight I am at it is pretty darn perfect - better adjustable shocks will really dial it in.

Not trying to push buttons, just saying - 'stiff' is subjective without quantifiable data.

 

[kevman65]

I dont know that I would entirely agree with this. Yes a higher spring rate will mean more stiffness, but unless your spring rate is 10 times that of your needs, it's a little misleading saying stiff springs equal a stiff ride.

I have 'stiff' springs. AEV HD's just swapped in a few weeks ago. As expected it is more stiff, but still fully flexes. But is it uncomfortable stiff? Not at all. For the weight I am at it is pretty darn perfect - better adjustable shocks will really dial it in.

Not trying to push buttons, just saying - 'stiff' is subjective without quantifiable data.

And you missed the point, if you have stiff springs then SHOCKS can in no way soften those springs.

Whatever your springs are, is the softest the ride will be.

 

[chorky]

I have found over years of trying to get a good ride its hard to beat Metalcloak Duroflex bushings. Their control arms alone will soften the ride of a stock Jeep. My MOPAR lift springs with a combo of Core front lowers and track bar with JJ's and MC front uppers and rear lowers and Eibach feels like it did before I touched a bolt on this rig .Upper rears next . I used MC on many previous Jeeps and never found a better set of replacement arms ride wise.

I think this is a bit of a placebo effect here. Metacloak duroflex bushings have a harder durometer than the factory bonded rubber bushings. Their JJ's also are basically metal on metal, they might have a small poly sleeve or something, which transmits NVH much more than a bonded rubber bushing of the stock arms. A control arm lift changes geometry away from a factory spec and transmits more NVH into the frame due to the steeper angle of the control arm. Thus it actually reduces NVH. But, with a better quality shock than the stock option - which is almost every shock out there, then it may feel smoother. So I would argue that the ride quality change is due to the shock's (and paired spring rate) alone and not the control arms. I have currie JJ's on my TJ and it is the worst riding vehicle I have ever owned. Meanwhile sitting next to it is the same year LJ (granted wheelbase is 9" longer) on stock springs, stock control arms, stock shocks (yep 18 years old) and it rides almost as plush as the JT.

 

[Desert_Gladiator]

Not trying to push buttons, just saying - 'stiff' is subjective without quantifiable data.

Huh? 'stiffness' is a result of spring rate, shock valving, and vehicle weight - it's absolutely quantifiable.

Now, somebody's differing *perception* of what a firm or soft ride is, or a person's lack of understanding of what's going on under their tush, or their lack of appropriate vocabulary to describe the sensations they experience are different problems entirely.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I dont know that I would entirely agree with this. Yes a higher spring rate will mean more stiffness, but unless your spring rate is 10 times that of your needs, it's a little misleading saying stiff springs equal a stiff ride.

"Stiffer" is the better term.
unless you add weight to your Jeep, putting in springs of a higher rate will make it "stiffer".
Whether or not you feel it is going to vary with what people tolerate or are used to. (and the difference in the spring rate - how much difference there is from the original or take-outs)

But you can't possibly get around the fact that a higher rate spring is a stiffer spring and will not move as far on a bump of a given size vs. a lower rate spring and that push will transmit to the vehicle - if the vehicle's weight isn't increased.

It's suspension 101.

 

[Wheelin98TJ]

Huh? 'stiffness' is a result of spring rate, shock valving, and vehicle weight - it's absolutely quantifiable.

Now, somebody's differing *perception* of what a firm or soft ride is, or a person's lack of understanding of what's going on under their tush, or their lack of appropriate vocabulary to describe the sensations they experience are different problems entirely.

The person saying they had a stiff ride isn’t providing any of the variables.

 

[chorky]

Huh? 'stiffness' is a result of spring rate, shock valving, and vehicle weight - it's absolutely quantifiable.

Now, somebody's differing *perception* of what a firm or soft ride is, or a person's lack of understanding of what's going on under their tush, or their lack of appropriate vocabulary to describe the sensations they experience are different problems entirely.

Context Bill. My comment is regarding this specific quote, for which I already quoted above "Everyone that goes with stiffer springs for the load, is always going to have a stiff ride."

In other words, it revolves entirely around 'perception'. "A stiff ride" - determined by who? That is a highly subjective term. Stiffer - sure that is a better term. But it is still subjective without real world numbers to back it up. Stiffer by how much? Stiffer like put a cap on that beverage of yours, or stiffer like your fillings are going to fall out? Nowhere did I say it would not be stiffer or more stiff, or whatever word you want to use. But to say 'it will be a stiff ride' is misleading. To me, a 'stiff' ride means a very uncomfortable ride. To someone else it might mean a sports car like ride. Subjective.

Comprehension 101

is a result of spring rate, shock valving, and vehicle weight - it's absolutely quantifiable.

Now, somebody's differing *perception* of what a firm or soft ride is, or a person's lack of understanding of what's going on under

I don't think I said it was not quantifiable. But I doubt anyone has put any numbers to the variety of options of suspension types and lift types and varying speed over varying terrain at different times of the year with different temperatures and weather shocks are warmed up or cold or overheated into number values than then can be graphed and extrapolated over a range of differences to visually and mathematically calculate the differences. Unless you know of said numbers and graphs stashed somewhere?

And you missed the point, if you have stiff springs then SHOCKS can in no way soften those springs.

Whatever your springs are, is the softest the ride will be.

Nowhere did I say that it would - why put words in my mouth? It is subjective. How much weight will someone add? Who knows. 100 pound, 800 pounds? Maybe instead weight will be reduced by a rear seat delete and further enhanced in a negative way by heavy duty.

 

[kevman65]

Nowhere did I say that it would - why put words in my mouth? It is subjective. How much weight will someone add? Who knows. 100 pound, 800 pounds? Maybe instead weight will be reduced by a rear seat delete and further enhanced in a negative way by heavy duty.

Almost every person on this Board that complains about "ride" after changing springs wants to know what shock to use to soften the ride back up.

I explained exactly how and why that is NOT possible. You want to get hooked on semantics and muddy the information I am giving.

You can NOT put on a stiffer spring and soften it up with a shock. You CAN put on soft springs and stiffen them up with shocks.

 

[chorky]

Almost every person on this Board that complains about "ride" after changing springs wants to know what shock to use to soften the ride back up.

I explained exactly how and why that is NOT possible. You want to get hooked on semantics and muddy the information I am giving.

You can NOT put on a stiffer spring and soften it up with a shock. You CAN put on soft springs and stiffen them up with shocks.

Call it semantics all you want but using incorrect language purposefully is just as big of a disjustice. I have been screwed over by people doing just that, and worse, people have died using incorrect language be it purposeful or not. So it matters.

The details matter. If you dont agree, then good luck.

In a somewhat similar but opposite situation, you cannot properly support a vehicle by taking improperly rated springs and slapping on stiffer shocks.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

"Everyone that goes with stiffer springs for the load, is always going to have a stiff ride."

In other words, it revolves entirely around 'perception'. "A stiff ride" - determined by who? That is a highly subjective term. Stiffer - sure that is a better term. But it is still subjective

Pretty much what I said - quoting myself below here - but it could actually be tested........... Believe it or not, there's equipment for just that.
But I did say in different words - it's going to vary by the person, whether or not it's "harsh" - but it will be a stiffer ride even if the person inside doesn't think so.

Whether or not you feel it is going to vary with what people tolerate or are used to. (and the difference in the spring rate - how much difference there is from the original or take-outs)

Higher rate springs put in a vehicle that is otherwise not at all modified will result in an increase in how the vehicle responds to bumps - the springs won't hold the tires down against the road on dips, and on bumps up, they will transmit more of the energy from the unsprung weight up to the vehicle.

 

[kevman65]

Shocks aren't there to "support the vehicle". Shocks are there to control the springs.

With that said, I'm finished with this because you are going to confuse people even more.

 

[tampahoosier]

Found it - this is why springs that are too stiff are a bad thing.............unless you are racing.

Nailed it!! I have the Clayton 2.5” Overland lift and the fox 2.5” performance elite shocks (2-3” lift height which don’t actually have enough travel, different story). Those fancy shocks combined with my 2.5” Clayton springs ride like garbage. WAY TO STIFF and at highway speeds if I’m hitting uneven highway you feel like is described above. It’s horrible.

I’ve since found out the Clayton springs are just incredibly stiff, probably too much so for most applications. I have heard they aren’t springs developed specifically for our JTs but it’s been from other manufacturers, some of them I trust though.

I have the standard 2.5” springs (so not even the HD or diesel spec springs) with the diesel motor, 10k synthetic winch and steel bumper/skid from LOD Off-road. I can’t make any adjustments to the dsc on the shocks, they remain on absolute softest setting, any tweaks up and it’s 10x worse. I can’t imagine the ride with the HD or diesel springs. CrazyCooter is doing revalving on my specific combo (Clayton and the fox performance elites) and I have heard amazing things around it. But if your building out better to go with a different setup.
I love my Clayton lift and so far rear springs SEEM fine but I have RK 3” springs being delivered Friday actually and will be swapping out my Clayton 2.5”.

It’s worth noting I will probably still need to re-valve my fox shocks as it’s also common knowledge they come from factory not dialed in for our platforms.

 

[Wheelin98TJ]

Nailed it!! I have the Clayton 2.5” Overland lift and the fox 2.5” performance elite shocks (2-3” lift height which don’t actually have enough travel, different story). Those fancy shocks combined with my 2.5” Clayton springs ride like garbage. WAY TO STIFF and at highway speeds if I’m hitting uneven highway you feel like is described above. It’s horrible.

I’ve since found out the Clayton springs are just incredibly stiff, probably too much so for most applications. I have heard they aren’t springs developed specifically for our JTs but it’s been from other manufacturers, some of them I trust though.

I have the standard 2.5” springs (so not even the HD or diesel spec springs) with the diesel motor, 10k synthetic winch and steel bumper/skid from LOD Off-road. I can’t make any adjustments to the dsc on the shocks, they remain on absolute softest setting, any tweaks up and it’s 10x worse. I can’t imagine the ride with the HD or diesel springs. CrazyCooter is doing revalving on my specific combo (Clayton and the fox performance elites) and I have heard amazing things around it. But if your building out better to go with a different setup.
I love my Clayton lift and so far rear springs SEEM fine but I have RK 3” springs being delivered Friday actually and will be swapping out my Clayton 2.5”.

It’s worth noting I will probably still need to re-valve my fox shocks as it’s also common knowledge they come from factory not dialed in for our platforms.

Your shocks don’t have enough travel and probably still need revalved, but your springs ride like garbage? How do you conclude this?

Have you ever rode in a Jeep with no shocks? Serious question.

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