NPS cancels AWD vehichles ( probably always has). I agree with concept but not their verbiage . #Read

[Zachanadandy]

Last month I was in Colorado on Cinnamon Pass and got stuck behind a Volvo going down the switchbacks towards Animas Forks. He was dragging his hitch the whole way down and his trailer wiring harness was ripped off by the time he made it to the bottom. The annoying part was he was going less than 5 mph and wasn't getting over to let anyone pass him.

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I'll follow at a respectful distance until the trail plug passes the 1st opportunity to pull out of the way. At that point I follow close enough to make it obvious you're holding me up. Pass the next one and I'm close enough to make you nervous every time you touch your brake pedal. By this point they pretty much all get out of the way.

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[GeneralMaximus]

The OBX rangers aren’t concerned with my dog fetching a frisbee. It’s the asshole that doesn’t control his dog and it starts digging up endangered sea turtle’s eggs or harassing nesting terns. If people could be trusted to apply common sense or gave a shit about the common good, these restrictions wouldn’t exist.

Thats what I always say. Most rules are made for the lowest common denominator. Not everyone is an idiot, but the rest of us still have to follow the same rules they set for those said idiots.

 

[Geoarch]

https://jalopnik.com/national-park-service-will-cite-drivers-of-awd-cars-for-1851617315

I been wanting to drive one of these Cross Treks as a possible daily to help build and save mileage on my 23JT.

Content discusses Pros and Cons 4WD and AWD, but I think the writer misses a point that there are a heck a lot of "unelectable diffs" out there that are not too much dissimilar then some AWD. Fun short read.

I have colleagues at various National Parks and Monuments, and they said that management was tired of sending out people to pull the AWDs out of situations they shouldn't be in. Whether that's the case or not, I'm not sure.

 

[Geoarch]

It’s mostly not about AWD vs 4WD. It’s about clearance. They don’t want cars on trails, smashing their oil pans, requiring recovery and causing environmental damage. How many people on this forum wheel with a spill kit? Now how many Subi owners who randomly see a trail and say to themselves “hey that’ll be fun” carry one or any recovery gear at all. It’s probably close to zero.

Yeah, I’m sure you can find some hardcore Subaru owner with a winch mount and other nonsense but that’s the exception. That’s someone who really wanted to spend a lot of money on their inferior off road vehicle just to be different when they could have just used a stock 4Runner and saved money.

NPS didn’t do this in a vacuum. They did it because this has become a problem. NPS will always err on the side of restricting vehicle access, vs NFS, because of their charter. People need to stop taking commercials to heart. It’s like the guys who jump their stupid Ford Raptors exactly once because they saw it on TV. AWD cars come from shitty country lanes in France and gravel road racing. They’re great at what they’re designed for. They’re better in many conditions than a 4WD Jeep. They never were intended for Jeep trails and they have zero business on them.

You're right. I'm a geologist and use my JTR in the field, and I've only used my winch on 2WD pick-ups and AWD vehicles to pull them out of situations they never should have been in the first place. Having said that, we also have a Rav4 Prime AWD that I much prefer driving in NM mountains in snow and ice, even monsoon rains. I'd never take it where I have to work. My colleagues at NPS say exactly that: management was tired of having to send someone out to pull an AWD off a 4WD trail.

 

[Geoarch]

Last month I was in Colorado on Cinnamon Pass and got stuck behind a Volvo going down the switchbacks towards Animas Forks. He was dragging his hitch the whole way down and his trailer wiring harness was ripped off by the time he made it to the bottom. The annoying part was he was going less than 5 mph and wasn't getting over to let anyone pass him.

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Sounds like arrogance was its own reward for that guy.

 

[BourbonRunner]

Island Beach State Park in NJ is permit only, but allows AWD and 4WD to get permits. Last 4th of July wife and I got out there and noticed an awful lot of non-permitted vehicle trying to drive on the sand after we realized the permit checker ranger station was un-occupied.

Similar at Assateague. NPS requires a permit, only allows @140 vehicles on at a time and has nobody to check the permits at the gate. Sure, if you get caught without (and ive seen it happen plenty of times, usually its the stuck dumbass who draws attention and gets nailed) you're SOL. But there's only a few times in 20+ years of OSV use I've been checked. Most recently was a few years ago, and it was twice in the same day-- when I was setting up my awning and rods, and another coming off at the air station- ranger was behind me and filling his tires up and asking me about my truck's build, etc. Good dudes BTW.

Ford Escape: stuck at the entrance. 2 WK/WK2 GCs: stuck at the entrance. A handful of pilots and highlanders and whatever elses: stuck at the entrance. Meanwhile every truck, JL, 4runner, etc we saw with permits was fine.

What did they all the people stuck have in common? 1. They were all AWD. 2. They all weren't permitted. 3 They all had curiously well inflated tires.

If i were to guess which was the most significant contributing factor i'd guess #3. I think it all comes down to preparation. There's something about AWD just being automatic that makes the false confidence that comes with it automatic though. Sure there were plenty of AWD vehicles on the beach not stuck, but i didn't see a single 4x4 that was stuck.

That's the issue, and others are noting it, too- just because your vehicle has AWD doesn't mean it's capable of trails/sand. The people above are usually the same people that fly down the road with a light coating of snow or don't adjust speed during heavy rain and wonder why they landed in a ditch shiny side down.

FWIW I've seen just as many mall rated Wranglers with all their color-coordinated bolt covers and baubles and Bro Dozers with their 8" vertical smoke stacks in the bed get jammed up right at the entrance as I have Audis, Hyundais, Kias, BMWs and Teslas. Lack of skill and preparation is the common denominator.

I just hope that the NPS can start posting a ranger at the gate to check permits FIRST so we can avoid those idiots ruining it for the rest of us.

 

[Uparms]

Similar at Assateague. NPS requires a permit, only allows @140 vehicles on at a time and has nobody to check the permits at the gate. Sure, if you get caught without (and ive seen it happen plenty of times, usually its the stuck dumbass who draws attention and gets nailed) you're SOL. But there's only a few times in 20+ years of OSV use I've been checked. Most recently was a few years ago, and it was twice in the same day-- when I was setting up my awning and rods, and another coming off at the air station- ranger was behind me and filling his tires up and asking me about my truck's build, etc. Good dudes BTW.



That's the issue, and others are noting it, too- just because your vehicle has AWD doesn't mean it's capable of trails/sand. The people above are usually the same people that fly down the road with a light coating of snow or don't adjust speed during heavy rain and wonder why they landed in a ditch shiny side down.

FWIW I've seen just as many mall rated Wranglers with all their color-coordinated bolt covers and baubles and Bro Dozers with their 8" vertical smoke stacks in the bed get jammed up right at the entrance as I have Audis, Hyundais, Kias, BMWs and Teslas. Lack of skill and preparation is the common denominator.

I just hope that the NPS can start posting a ranger at the gate to check permits FIRST so we can avoid those idiots ruining it for the rest of us.

Assateague and Maryland deserve great praise for their daily vehicle limit! Delaware just wants to make cash. Tean years ago I would not fish June, July and August in Delaware. Even worse now.

 

[Jaxmax]

I don’t know been fishing Delaware beaches since 1978 and yes it has gotten crowded and more rude people but the annoying reservation system for weekends and holidays during the summer has made it better, sucks but still better then last couple years where people were stealing permits off trucks cause they were sold out. That said the beaches at Cape Henolopen fill the daily limit quickly, beaches farther away from Rehoboth and Lewes are not bad at all some days plenty of space to spread out. I still can’t figure out why if I am parked no where near anybody, can’t even make out brand of truck next to me , and I am fishing , and along comes a family parks twenty feet from us fires up the radio first get all there stuff out, stick one rod in the holder and all run into the surf and get in front of my rods , I just quit fishing , chill with the wife for a while , then after awhile if it’s early just move up or down the beach…..Jack
I do see a lot of AWD cars and SUVs on Delaware beaches, last weekend I was surprised with a Volkswagen AWD that looked so low, tires tiny and did not look lowered , but he was there ! He did get a six foot rod out the the back stuck it in rod holder and then hung out.

 

[SnazzGlad]

I live in flatland Illinois but all I see is commercials on tv and ads on streaming services showing sh*t box AWD SUV’s in the mountains getting by just fine in rough terrain. If I were a consumer nowadays I may think I could get my Kia through Moab

 

[Jefe1018]

I live in flatland Illinois but all I see is commercials on tv and ads on streaming services showing sh*t box AWD SUV’s in the mountains getting by just fine in rough terrain. If I were a consumer nowadays I may think I could get my Kia through Moab

Well when auto makers do stuff like this…



Well… you get birth to a great YouTube channel..



This is the video that got MORR started.

 

[Blade1668]

I live in flatland Illinois but all I see is commercials on tv and ads on streaming services showing sh*t box AWD SUV’s in the mountains getting by just fine in rough terrain. If I were a consumer nowadays I may think I could get my Kia through Moab

Well there is a few hills in S. IL down near Shawnee N.F.
I heard something similar but stupid from a Kia Sportage owner. Hmmm, he was from Chicago.
So many times I've had stupid things said to me about not knowing what living in country. Almost everyone thinks that anyone from IL is from Chicago.
On topic "Gate keepers" helps but then jackasses do bypass them or try to. Certain groups are notorious for that along with f###ing up some trails deliberately.

 

[ZeeJay]

Oh can’t wait to tell park squirrels my latest ZJ project on a long arm set up and 35s still has a 249 in it….. that’s an AWD.

This isn’t a vehicle issue as much as it’s an operator issue with applied common sense, just because you have it doesn’t mean you should use it. An AWD vehicle is very capable within its limitations. The good news is I saved a bunch of money on car insurance by switching to Geico.

 

[Zachanadandy]

Oh can’t wait to tell park squirrels my latest ZJ project on a long arm set up and 35s still has a 249 in it….. that’s an AWD.

This isn’t a vehicle issue as much as it’s an operator issue with applied common sense, just because you have it doesn’t mean you should use it. An AWD vehicle is very capable within its limitations. The good news is I saved a bunch of money on car insurance by switching to Geico.

That's not even close to a legitimate comparison. An awd rav4 or the like doesn't have a center diff lock, the 249 does. It has a CVT that cuts all power when there's wheel slip, a ZJ does not. A stock ZJ probably has 2x the wheel travel, your long arm likely 4x that of these crossovers. They don't have 4Lo, the 249 does. That laundry list of limitations is too confusing and long winded to even explain to the average crossover buyer. Anyone that owns a ZJ/WJ/ or XJ that came with a full time high range mode knows full well that's not the AWD they are referring to. These are soft roaders at best and not intended for real 4x4 trails period. Can an experienced driver get one through most of these NPS roads on a day when the weather is good and they won't gave a lot of wheel slip? Of course. Throw some slick mud in the mix, wheel slip shuts the power down, and there's nothing any driver can do to combat that in some of these vehicles. Add in the fact that most of these buyers think AWD means they are ready for the rubicon trail and just telling them no is the smart move.

 

[LostWoods]

It'd be nicer if they defined "high clearance". Lifted Jeep, stock Jeep with 33s and Rubicon suspension, stock Jeep S with 32s and skid plates hanging down, or just how much ground clearance under the center?

They do, it's 8 inches at the lowest point which is why a lot of the Subie crowd is pissed about this. Thing is, a Subaru and Rubicon have fairly close specs in that regard. The difference is that for one, it's basically the entire undercarriage and the other, it's the bottom of the diff with basically twice that to the frame.

IMO the real issue is the lack of true 4wd or 4Lo more than clearance. A stock 4Runner's gas tank skid is only 10.5" off the ground (mine already looks like shit at 4k miles) but compared to Subaru, the added traction of actual 4wd means I'm stuck less and do less damage to the trails.

You can't write rules for the exception who throw arms and 31" tires on a Crosstrek, you have to write them for the glue sniffer in a rental Chevy who thinks Death Valley in July or some deserted pass in February is a good idea.

 

[DailyMoparGuy]

You can definitely take AWD SUVs to places that would surprise people. I did it all the time as a college student at West Virginia University and always got the “how the hell did you get here” conversations. Some schools’ students spend days in town, at the beach, etc…we hit the trails to get to waterfalls and swimming holes, and I did it in a 2007 Acura MDX (lots of solo trips too, bit of a loner ha).

I scuffed the shit out of the belly of that thing, and took routes where I knew I wouldn’t get high-centered. In the dozens of times I hit those trails, I only had to get recovered twice. Both were deep mud related.

All this to say, if you are a good driver, understand your vehicle’s limitations, and have a general understanding of physics, then a decent AWD SUV can take you on awesome adventures. Just don’t go trying to imitate a damn Wrangler or 4Runner, and know when to turn around.

People suck at driving basically and I don’t blame the NP for closing trails to less capable vehicles. Just wanted to give my 2 cents on the capability of AWD SUV/Crossovers since I have experience with pushing one to its limits. To be clear, a stock JT, even on street tires blows my old MDX out of the water, lockers or no lockers. No comparison.

Edit: Just to add on, my MDX had a good amount of trail damage that I was 100% okay with. There were definitely times that taking anticipated damage helped clear an obstacle. My front bumper was cracked and the plastic lip thing was ripped off. Mud flaps destroyed and pinstripes everywhere. Most people in brand new Subis, Kias, etc probably don’t want that and it will hinder their capabilities.

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