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Towing capacity guesstimator after lift and 37" tires?

ShadowsPapa

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And yet the mojave got a 1k pound bump in capacity with no improvement in braking or reducing tire size by Stellantis themselves? Almost like the original 6k was underrated by 1k pounds minimum? Is the 7k also under rated? Is the 7,700 of the max tow under rated? Will a gladiator even lifted on 37s stop an 8k pound trailer just fine? I know the answer to that last question with 100% certainty but do what you're comfortable with. On one hand the extra weight of the mojave could be a detriment, but as far as controlling a heavy trailer a heavier tow rig has an advantage.
Cooling, most likely.
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ShadowsPapa

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They didn't upgrade the cooling on the mojave though, magic 1k pound increase or proof that the rating are overly conservative?
I mean the grill. It was changes for more air flow.
Really proves nothing other than they may have retested with the new grill design.
Can we say with absolute certainty nothing else at all was changed with the Mojave? Nothing? No frame mods or any other parts or features?
 

Zachanadandy

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I mean the grill. It was changes for more air flow.
Really proves nothing other than they may have retested with the new grill design.
Can we say with absolute certainty nothing else at all was changed with the Mojave? Nothing? No frame mods or any other parts or features?
I don't know about absolute certainty put the Mojave frame was already strengthened over the Rubicon and max tow to start with according to Jeep so why would it be the weak link? If the grill made the difference tab went didn't the Rubicon or max tow go up? We can pretend something changed, which is technically true as the rating went up by 1k pounds.
 

ShadowsPapa

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Well, it gets a whole lot more complex from there - if we want to get into the science of heat and engines.
 

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Zachanadandy

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Well, it gets a whole lot more complex from there - if we want to get into the science of heat and engines.
Definitely a complex topic, but the max tow, Rubicon, and mojave are all pretty equal in every aspect that matters. The rubicon and mojave even have the same sized tires. There's no logical reason they weren't rated the same, and with no changes they now are. That tells the whole story as far as I'm concerned. And if we are saying the cooling system is the limiting factor not pulling grades in 90⁰+ weather would further increase capability since that's how they were certified.
 

ShadowsPapa

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We are also leaving out the other factors, suspension/shocks, etc.
They test for understeer and so on - so a softer suspension can be problematic. The Rubicon suspension is different and likely to change the results of the SAE testing.

Minimum temperature of 100 degrees at the base of the grade.

Subtract the total weight of the tow vehicle (the TVTW includes the weight of the driver, passenger, and additional equipment) from the tested GCWR, the result is the SAE J2807-compliant Tow Weight Rating.

Braking matters - TIRES matter -
The J2807 standards also have requirements for the braking performance of the truck-and-trailer combination at its maximum GCWR. Combos with a maximum tow rating of more than 3,000 pounds are required to stop completely from 20 mph in 80 feet or less. During this stop test, the trailer must remain within an 11.5-foot-wide lane throughout the entire stop. In addition to the active testing, the parking brake must be able to hold the truck and trailer firmly in place both upward and downward on a 12 percent grade when it is at the maximum GCWR.

Suspension - weight shifting to the front, understeer, softer suspension might be problematic -
The truck-and-trailer “Combination Handling Requirements” of J2807 specify minimum performance for understeer and trailer sway response. The tests are designed to determine the limits of the weight carrying, weight distributing, and stability of a fifth-wheel/gooseneck trailer, with the combo at its maximum GCWR. Understeer (the opposite of fishtailing) is measured at three different levels of Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR), which is a calculation of how much the load on the front axle changes.

The test criteria doc is over 2 dozen pages.

A few of the tests -

Jeep Gladiator Towing capacity guesstimator after lift and 37" tires? 1754774537059-2s


Lifts and bigger tires are really going to screw with much of that, especially the STOPPING and understeer testing, sway test and such because so much has changed about the vehicle.
 

Zachanadandy

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We are also leaving out the other factors, suspension/shocks, etc.
They test for understeer and so on - so a softer suspension can be problematic. The Rubicon suspension is different and likely to change the results of the SAE testing.

Minimum temperature of 100 degrees at the base of the grade.

Subtract the total weight of the tow vehicle (the TVTW includes the weight of the driver, passenger, and additional equipment) from the tested GCWR, the result is the SAE J2807-compliant Tow Weight Rating.

Braking matters - TIRES matter -
The J2807 standards also have requirements for the braking performance of the truck-and-trailer combination at its maximum GCWR. Combos with a maximum tow rating of more than 3,000 pounds are required to stop completely from 20 mph in 80 feet or less. During this stop test, the trailer must remain within an 11.5-foot-wide lane throughout the entire stop. In addition to the active testing, the parking brake must be able to hold the truck and trailer firmly in place both upward and downward on a 12 percent grade when it is at the maximum GCWR.

Suspension - weight shifting to the front, understeer, softer suspension might be problematic -
The truck-and-trailer “Combination Handling Requirements” of J2807 specify minimum performance for understeer and trailer sway response. The tests are designed to determine the limits of the weight carrying, weight distributing, and stability of a fifth-wheel/gooseneck trailer, with the combo at its maximum GCWR. Understeer (the opposite of fishtailing) is measured at three different levels of Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR), which is a calculation of how much the load on the front axle changes.

The test criteria doc is over 2 dozen pages.

A few of the tests -

1754774537059-2s.png


Lifts and bigger tires are really going to screw with much of that, especially the STOPPING and understeer testing, sway test and such because so much has changed about the vehicle.
I've found the stock springs on every Jeep too soft. Same with the stock shocks even on a Rubicon. The mojave is the only factory shock that feels like it's adequate for even stock tires. Every lift spring is firmer and so is every aftermarket shock. For all of those reasons I'm not sure you'd see as much difference as you think after a lift. Yes the cog is higher and tires are larger but dampening and sway control are often improved over stock in my experience. The larger tires will increase braking distance for sure, but short of testing or at least knowing how close the stock setup was to the 80' limit I wouldn't assume it would fail that test after a lift and tires. I'm not certain it would fail any of them for that matter having towed heavy with my lifted truck. Add in the other mods and in my opinion it handles better and is more stable than it was stock empty.
 

ShadowsPapa

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OK, whatever........... I guess we can ignore engineers and all of the videos out there about it just based on how one feels.

And no, not every lift spring is firmer. Go check the specs. Some are longer, some are the same rate as factory with an added second rate.
 

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If it's a stock truck, manufacturer limits apply. Pretty simple really.

If the truck is modified, factory spec's do not apply any more.

I guess the bottom line is;

Are you comfortable exceeding your truck manufacturer limits? If the answer is yes, then do it

If your not comfortable exceeding the manufacturer limits, then don't do it.

Trying to justify it by asking others isn't going to change anything. Rules are rules and laws are laws for a reason.
 

Zachanadandy

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If it's a stock truck, manufacturer limits apply. Pretty simple really.

If the truck is modified, factory spec's do not apply any more.

I guess the bottom line is;

Are you comfortable exceeding your truck manufacturer limits? If the answer is yes, then do it

If your not comfortable exceeding the manufacturer limits, then don't do it.

Trying to justify it by asking others isn't going to change anything. Rules are rules and laws are laws for a reason.
And ratings aren't either. They are suggestions at most.
 

ShadowsPapa

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So if a vehicle passes the SAE testing and comes up with a particular number, the manufacturer isn't going to use that number as the tow rating, even though the SAE testing takes the vehicles to their limits of steering, braking, cooling systems and so on? It's just a recommendation?
That testing is crazy intense and rigorous, and it would seem to me that towing over the number they earn is asking for some serios trouble.

Talking of springs - stiffer springs can cause understeer - in other words, the vehicle won't turn where you want it to go in an emergency. So it's ok if you put on heavier springs and now it can't meet the SAE steering while towing requirements

Increased ride height increases body roll and understeer.

So bigger tires reduce your ability to stop - meaning you may no longer meet those SAE test numbers.
Stiffer springs, sometimes used in lifts - increases understeer. That means in a turn it no longer goes where you want it to go but will likely swing wide.
Taller springs can do the same - increase understeer .

These also change sway characteristics greatly - meaning your lift can cause you to have different issues with trailer sway, perhaps even less ability to control it.

The Mojave wasn't available until into 2020, possibly didn't get tested with the others (virtual or physically). Also note the max tow numbers were changed later - perhaps some re-testing OR, the weights changed. If you note how the tow ratings are figured, any change to vehicle weights can impact the performance and results in the SAE J2807 testing.

Once testing has been completed and a truck model meets all of the criteria, the basic calculation for the SAE maximum Tow Weight Rating is: TWR = GCWR – TVTW. By subtracting the total weight of the tow vehicle (the TVTW includes the weight of the driver, passenger, and additional equipment) from the tested GCWR, the result is the SAE J2807-compliant Tow Weight Rating.

Change the vehicle weight, and you get different results.

Lifts, tires, vehicle weight - all impact the tow numbers.

So yes, those things do impact towing by REDUCING the numbers
How much?
Only taking it through the testing will tell that! There's no such thing as a calculator!

Again,

 

Zachanadandy

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So if a vehicle passes the SAE testing and comes up with a particular number, the manufacturer isn't going to use that number as the tow rating, even though the SAE testing takes the vehicles to their limits of steering, braking, cooling systems and so on? It's just a recommendation?
That testing is crazy intense and rigorous, and it would seem to me that towing over the number they earn is asking for some serios trouble.

Talking of springs - stiffer springs can cause understeer - in other words, the vehicle won't turn where you want it to go in an emergency. So it's ok if you put on heavier springs and now it can't meet the SAE steering while towing requirements

Increased ride height increases body roll and understeer.

So bigger tires reduce your ability to stop - meaning you may no longer meet those SAE test numbers.
Stiffer springs, sometimes used in lifts - increases understeer. That means in a turn it no longer goes where you want it to go but will likely swing wide.
Taller springs can do the same - increase understeer .

These also change sway characteristics greatly - meaning your lift can cause you to have different issues with trailer sway, perhaps even less ability to control it.

The Mojave wasn't available until into 2020, possibly didn't get tested with the others (virtual or physically). Also note the max tow numbers were changed later - perhaps some re-testing OR, the weights changed. If you note how the tow ratings are figured, any change to vehicle weights can impact the performance and results in the SAE J2807 testing.

Once testing has been completed and a truck model meets all of the criteria, the basic calculation for the SAE maximum Tow Weight Rating is: TWR = GCWR – TVTW. By subtracting the total weight of the tow vehicle (the TVTW includes the weight of the driver, passenger, and additional equipment) from the tested GCWR, the result is the SAE J2807-compliant Tow Weight Rating.

Change the vehicle weight, and you get different results.

Lifts, tires, vehicle weight - all impact the tow numbers.

So yes, those things do impact towing by REDUCING the numbers
How much?
Only taking it through the testing will tell that! There's no such thing as a calculator!

Again,

Again you're assuming the testing took the vehicle to any one of those limits? Like they are just out there for weeks adding weight until it fails one of the tests. The mojave gaining 1k pounds of capacity without any changes disproves that. The manufacturer picks the weight they want it certified for and runs all the tests. Pass them all and your certified and done. Would a max tow pass at 8k? Maybe. Did they test it at 8k? Maybe. If it failed where did it fail? We will never have all the info to say one way or the other.
 

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Have you liked at the door jamb sticker on the gladiator? No tow rating or gcwr to even try to extrapolate from. Everyone parrots the sane lawyer gear... and can't site 1 case. Again nobody is weighing your rig to see if you were a few hundred pounds over period.
So far yes you’re half right, only the payload rating is actually on the sticker. However as the driver it’s your duty and responsibility to not be ignorant about your vehicle and what it’s capable of. Hey you want to go out there and create a hazard for all the folks around you? That’s not right. Also that ignorance will provide the grounds for your insurance company to drop you, leaving you out to live with a huge financial mess. Good luck.
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