Stock LCAs to Mopar Extended LCAs - Caster Change

[VA6489]

Cost or performance.... Most that claim cost really don't understand how good the on road performance can be. Going back to the days of boxing in the factory GM rear control arms on my Chevelle so that it would handle better. Today we throw out the stamped steel stuff in favor of thick wall tubing or biller equipment.

Just got finished gutting the ACCUAIR suspension from my rig. flimsy tubing poor quality bushings all contribute to a horrible on road ride. Current set up is Clayton adjustable control arm with big good quality joints and a forged track bar. Ride quality is much better but still not where it needs to be.
Next evolution is a set of Artec long arms with 7075 links. In the past 4 jeep I have owned nothing rides better on or off the road than proper suspension geometry. Looking forward to one finger drivability again. 6-7 degrees of caster is a sweet spot for most solid axle suspensions, last rig I ran 9.5 degrees on 40 inch rolling stock. Handled like a sport car on and off the road.

But I digress, budgets are what they are and those who spend a bit more always get a bad wrap. Good quality stuff can be had for a reasonable price that is to say not breaking the bank. But if the decision comes down to the difference between $87.00 and $97.00 and you go with the lower....you get the lower quality and longevity.

To get a great ride out of a OEM Jeep Quality Ball joint, (Dynatrac,) Forged Track Bars, aluminum tierod/drag link and aftermarket quality control arms. Crank in 6-7 degrees of caster and enjoy for a long time. PS all of this stuff has serviceable ends (read grease fittings).


Flame on....

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[D_JT]

Cost or performance.... Most that claim cost really don't understand how good the on road performance can be. Going back to the days of boxing in the factory GM rear control arms on my Chevelle so that it would handle better. Today we throw out the stamped steel stuff in favor of thick wall tubing or biller equipment.

Just got finished gutting the ACCUAIR suspension from my rig. flimsy tubing poor quality bushings all contribute to a horrible on road ride. Current set up is Clayton adjustable control arm with big good quality joints and a forged track bar. Ride quality is much better but still not where it needs to be.
Next evolution is a set of Artec long arms with 7075 links. In the past 4 jeep I have owned nothing rides better on or off the road than proper suspension geometry. Looking forward to one finger drivability again. 6-7 degrees of caster is a sweet spot for most solid axle suspensions, last rig I ran 9.5 degrees on 40 inch rolling stock. Handled like a sport car on and off the road.

But I digress, budgets are what they are and those who spend a bit more always get a bad wrap. Good quality stuff can be had for a reasonable price that is to say not breaking the bank. But if the decision comes down to the difference between $87.00 and $97.00 and you go with the lower....you get the lower quality and longevity.

To get a great ride out of a OEM Jeep Quality Ball joint, (Dynatrac,) Forged Track Bars, aluminum tierod/drag link and aftermarket quality control arms. Crank in 6-7 degrees of caster and enjoy for a long time. PS all of this stuff has serviceable ends (read grease fittings).


Flame on....

Yup I understand and do agree with that. My TJ is on a Clayton long arm. 3 link front, triangulated rear. 3.5" triple rate Rock Krawler springs. 35" Nittos, dirty life bead locks and it'll cruise 80+ with one finger on the wheel no problem, zero bump steer or wobble. Rides great for a short wheelbase Jeep. Buy once. Cry once.

BUT. My Gladiator Rubicon and my wifes JL Rubicon is just fine with $87 2" mopar lower control arms. I understand the perks of $400 control arms but it's just not needed for a stock or near stock set up. My JT and JL ride way nicer than my TJ.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

You are getting into caster wobble territory that high - it's TOO high and yes, there is such a thing!

Interesting that some folks laugh in the face of facts. They likely have zero alignment experience and aren't well-read.

Caster "shimmy" or "flutter" is a real thing. It's not the cause of DW, but can actually make it WORSE and not better.

Laugh all you want - but I do my homework before stating such things - and others here have agreed in other threads.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Yup I understand and do agree with that. My TJ is on a Clayton long arm. 3 link front, triangulated rear. 3.5" triple rate Rock Krawler springs. 35" Nittos, dirty life bead locks and it'll cruise 80+ with one finger on the wheel no problem, zero bump steer or wobble. Rides great for a short wheelbase Jeep. Buy once. Cry once.

BUT. My Gladiator Rubicon and my wifes JL Rubicon is just fine with $87 2" mopar lower control arms. I understand the perks of $400 control arms but it's just not needed for a stock or near stock set up. My JT and JL ride way nicer than my TJ.

Exactly - for the bulk of owners, even many with small to medium lifts - they aren't going to notice a difference because they aren't taxing the MOPAR LCAs.

When someone is talking the stresses of 37s or 40s, that's a different animal. But to suggest that you will feel a difference on most lesser setups, naw......... Of course when one spends massive amounts of money, it's got to be justified to others who don't spend as much, and some will be a placebo effect.
If you aren't buying the high quality things I'm using, you are missing out.
Ok, sure.

 

[VA6489]

Interesting that some folks laugh in the face of facts. They likely have zero alignment experience and aren't well-read.

Caster "shimmy" or "flutter" is a real thing. It's not the cause of DW, but can actually make it WORSE and not better.

Laugh all you want - but I do my homework before stating such things - and others here have agreed in other threads.

I am sure somewhere in you vast expanse of knowledge this is true.

120,000 miles of drive with 9.5 degrees of caster on a long travel JKURR says different. but you are the authority.

LOL

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I am sure somewhere in you vast expanse of knowledge this is true.

120,000 miles of drive with 9.5 degrees of caster on a long travel JKURR says different. but you are the authority.

LOL

One vehicle - proof for sure.

I take into account years of experience, reading, and research of many other builds, including what others have found (reducing their caster actually helped)
You are talking about one - and there's a lot more to that one than just caster. You have likely also dealt with scrub radius and many other factors. Changed wheels impact that, which can impact the toe needed so even toe isn't a one size fits all.

One needs to deal with the masses in such things, not just one build.

Gee, here's a guy who reduced his caster - and solved his wobble problem. So one size doesn't fit all.

You are going to argue with his success? One of many who have proven more isn't always better?
Yeah, you will.

 

[D_JT]

Also, from what I've experienced. The bushings on the 2" mopar lower control arms look to be similar to what you would find on Claytons Overland+ control arms and even Metalcloak's Duroflex control arms. I know there might be some push back on that statement, so... SIMILAR not identical.

 

[JTGuy]

Well, right now I have the Mopar 2 inch arms on the lower front that gave me 6.1 deg caster, laser measured. Then I installed the JKS geo brackets and my jeep alignment guy said I will probably have 7-8 deg and that will be ok. I guess I could just get it measured again but it does drive great. I have noticed that at freeway speed on a big G-out on the freeway That I do get a small amount of push on the steering wheel, not bad , just noticeable. The front suspension is much more active with the brackets so that could be it.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Also, from what I've experienced. The bushings on the 2" mopar lower control arms look to be similar to what you would find on Claytons Overland+ control arms and even Metalcloak's Duroflex control arms. I know there might be some push back on that statement, so... SIMILAR not identical.

Like most other parts - they are fine for stock, and there's always some fudge factor in these things - Jeep KNOWS you may do something non-stock with it. I mean - you can order some JLs with 35s, correct? And those have the same control arms. They have to be able to handle more than just mall crawlers with highway tires right from the factory. They sell 2" lift kits for them. That means they understand there will be larger tires put on - likely most don't do a 2" lift and leave stock 32 or 33 inch tires....

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Well, right now I have the Mopar 2 inch arms on the lower front that gave me 6.1 deg caster, laser measured. Then I installed the JKS geo brackets and my jeep alignment guy said I will probably have 7-8 deg and that will be ok. I guess I could just get it measured again but it does drive great. I have noticed that at freeway speed on a big G-out on the freeway That I do get a small amount of push on the steering wheel, not bad , just noticeable. The front suspension is much more active with the brackets so that could be it.

Keep in mind - no one said "WILL", Ihave only ever said "can" or "may" or "getting into that territory".
It also depends on many other factors. But it's a risk for some, and some have absolutely backed things off and had better results. Your other angles and settings come into play as well, either making that number ok, or worse.
Some report that too much results in LACK of returning to center.... again, that's "some" and no one ever reports their wheel size, backset, offset, tire size and all other things - they tend to only mention one thing and leave us all guess about the rest.
People seem to think it's all about 1 measure - but it's a whole system that must work together. If one thing is off..............

I rely on college training, factory training and more alignments than I want to recall.
My least favorite was the straight axle trucks. But I also work with street rod builders who almost always use a straight axle and that's actually fun. Some of these guys head across the salt flats at ludicrous speeds.

 

[HAMP]

And thats why when I did my Lift I got all that stuff in advance and changed LCA's Travk bars , springs , Tie rod and linkage and Never experienced any change except no more bottoming out . The Rubicon factory springs are way way too soft.

I forgot to add that I have switched out the AEV lift spacers for a set of springs from RockKrawler. Don't like spacers, however the AEV ones were probably the most comfortable ones I've ever run.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

however the AEV ones were probably the most comfortable ones I've ever run.

How can one spacer be more comfortable than another? You still keep the same spring at the same rate.

 

[HAMP]

How can one spacer be more comfortable than another? You still keep the same spring at the same rate.

I have run spacers on other vehicles, one being a '14 JKUR that had a "crap country" spacer kit on it that rode like absolute trash. I got rid of the AEV spacers for actual springs on the JT and so far have been skeptical. I think I got used to the softness of the factory Rubicon springs. Still getting used to the stiffer ones.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I have run spacers on other vehicles, one being a '14 JKUR that had a "crap country" spacer kit on it that rode like absolute trash. I got rid of the AEV spacers for actual springs on the JT and so far have been skeptical. I think I got used to the softness of the factory Rubicon springs. Still getting used to the stiffer ones.

But spacers don't change the ride.
That's my point.
You can't have one spacer that rides good and another that rides like crap - all you are doing is raising the vehicle. You keep the exact same springs.
There's no difference between the ride of spacer brand X vs. spacer brand Y.
Its a spacer.

Springs change the ride, depending on the rate of the spring, and not really much else.

 

[Stan H]

I have run spacers on other vehicles, one being a '14 JKUR that had a "crap country" spacer kit on it that rode like absolute trash. I got rid of the AEV spacers for actual springs on the JT and so far have been skeptical. I think I got used to the softness of the factory Rubicon springs. Still getting used to the stiffer ones.

Springs tend to be stiffer they tend to account for things like bumpers,winches bigger tires. So then what ya have to do is realize now it takes a deeper hole a deeper swoop to flex those spings. If you add to much weight out front you will end up with the bob Bob bobbin' along of the original Rubicon springs. It truly is stupid how soft they was and those fox shocks did nothing to prevent those bumpstops from getting a workout. I couldn't wait to get rid of mine.

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