8 speed fluid change-level the truck or level the trans?

[Stan H]

So much here one could unpack on the experimental table.

One needs to be able to try several ways to attack a whine including the moving of the cold side of the temp window from 87F (30c) to let’s say 84-85F and keep a close eye on the normal operating temperatures. Are we staying in the same range of what’s normal 188F (ish), does it climb, does it drop ? That’s going after the whine with more oil volume but we don’t want to submerge the part of the transmission we see when the pan is dropped and your looking at the solenoid section. This is where I tend to believe the engineers who set the “cold end” of the temp window to 87F or 30c, designed that oil level to still be safe with as much volume of oil as possible to be allowed,….or is there still some wiggle room for more??

Another option would be to be able to do a tear down and examine the parts and pump with experienced eyes like you. Internal parts can be purchased now to do your own rebuild as @StanH has in his possession.

I liked this thread as soon as it was posted because I struggled with the vagueness of what “level” meant and i too was on that OCD learning curve to understand and experiment …and i too had to know, does level mean transmission or frame??

I was on the hunt to solve the whine I had in 1 and 2 and was closely watching my analysis reports. The whine showed levels of iron on a steeper incline than the other metals. Something wasn’t right. I was comparing other numbers from Blackstone posted on YouTube from a pan drop done at 60k miles on a BMW SUV with a ZF tranny. All looked well according to the tech doing the pan drop so I compared those numbers with what I was seeing.

Another option would be to maybe try a thicker viscosity ATF as you mentioned maybe the thinner viscosity just isn’t lubricating. Is the whine oil starvation, plugged screen or is it simply tolerances are too tight or is a thicker viscosity needed or some other brand of ATF needed that has a different additive package??

Maybe it’s yes to all this but it’s a struggle to do what’s right for the transmission if there’s warranty or not to consider.

After I found out that The clutch disc and friction plates were supplied to Chrysler for the making of the 850RE that is found in all 3.6L units . I began to ponder things such as how many different auto makers are being supplied with parts from raybestos and how many are using the same fluid ? I say not all .
Now back to the fluid i then realized that this ZF 8 & 9 speed fluid isn't about the plates and disc its about the pumps and solenoids, ..
After seeing several on here switch to redline fluid . I want to know how those Units are reacting to fluid with different cold pour measurements and with fluids that supposedly meet that certain spec. But do not claim to be the exact spec.
As to "level" yes that is a weird thing.
However when one considers that a Stock unit has a Definant rake even on level surface this placing more fluid away from the plug hole in the rear passenger side of the transmission and seeing how when a Gladiator is leveled out to remove the rake for esthetics or trail running this places a higher amount of fluid toward the plug hole. So at 87°F when checked for " fulness" on the leveled trans will show before the raked transmission when both units are sitting on a completely level surface.
Could the whine be coming from a lack if fluid by just small margins.
Is it that finicky ?
Does age affect tolerances thereby precipitating the need for a "redline" or "Amsoil "type fluid ?
These are my thoughts.
I want guys who switched to other brands to speak up. How's about some information .

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[ShadowsPapa]

Now back to the fluid i then realized that thos ZF 8 & 9 speed fluid isn't about the plates and disc its about the pumps and solenoids, ..

Well, it's definitely about the disks, too.......... yes, that matters.
And as far as who makes what for who - the same manufacturer doesn't mean the same disks or disk material. They made a lot of brake material for many auto makers over the years - with differing specs, different Coefficients of Friction and so on.
You can't say because they make clutch disks for others that it means they are the same to the same specs or the same fluids.
Fluid matters - just ask Ford (they struggled with disks not holding up a few years ago - the fluid)

Could the whine be coming from a lack if fluid by just small margins.

Highly unlikely since these go into different vehicles and at different angles. As long as the pump intake has fluid, the rest of the level doesn't really matter. The intake must be submerged during all conditions. As long as it is, an inch higher or an inch lower won't matter.

I suspect like batteries, we're going off in all directions and speculating.

 

[Stan H]

Well, it's definitely about the disks, too.......... yes, that matters.
And as far as who makes what for who - the same manufacturer doesn't mean the same disks or disk material. They made a lot of brake material for many auto makers over the years - with differing specs, different Coefficients of Friction and so on.
You can't say because they make clutch disks for others that it means they are the same to the same specs or the same fluids.
Fluid matters - just ask Ford (they struggled with disks not holding up a few years ago - the fluid)



Highly unlikely since these go into different vehicles and at different angles. As long as the pump intake has fluid, the rest of the level doesn't really matter. The intake must be submerged during all conditions. As long as it is, an inch higher or an inch lower won't matter.

I suspect like batteries, we're going off in all directions and speculating.

Okay so these friction disc aren't made in a singular friction type or quotient. Very interesting. It was sorta speculative on my part that they have just upgraded and modified across the board.
That basically nearly through everything I am thinking out the window with the dish water except valving solenoids and pumps.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

I suspect like batteries, we're going off in all directions and speculating

That’s all we have if we don’t have a couple transmission rebuilders with OCD, and attention to detail that would pull this transmission apart and critically examine it, then all we can do is grab our darts and hope we make a best guess calculated throw at what options we have to work with, that works best. What fixes a whine for one will be different for someone else.

So we know a “whine” in the forward gears can mean:
1. Low oil level
2. Defective parts or pump
3. Wrong viscosity or oil additive pack needs to be different
4. Tight tolerances that need to break-in more and spread out
5. Oil analysis will give wear metals report. Defective parts or pump will show elevated levels in wear metals that oil won’t fix. If viscosity is wrong, maybe something that’s .5 thicker might help?? If tolerances are too tight, could .5 or 1 part in viscosity thicker starve that part and make things worse??

 

[Maximus Gladius]

I remember back with transmission #1 when I had that whine at highway speeds and after I took an oil sample that found glycol contamination wear metals were through the roof and I chose to do a flush and put in AMSOIL,…after transmission tanked and the shit hit the fan because everyone panicked the oil was “red” and not “green”, AMSOIL senior manager asked me, “you didn’t put Amsoil in there hoping it would fix it did you”?

There’s some things new oil or a change in different oil just won’t fix.

 

[Stan H]

That’s all we have if we don’t have a couple transmission rebuilders with OCD, and attention to detail that would pull this transmission apart and critically examine it, then all we can do is grab our darts and hope we make a best guess calculated throw at what options we have to work with, that works best. What fixes a whine for one will be different for someone else.

So we know a “whine” in the forward gears can mean:
1. Low oil level
2. Defective parts or pump
3. Wrong viscosity or oil additive pack needs to be different
4. Tight tolerances that need to break-in more and spread out
5. Oil analysis will give wear metals report. Defective parts or pump will show elevated levels in wear metals that oil won’t fix. If viscosity is wrong, maybe something that’s .5 thicker might help?? If tolerances are too tight, could .5 or 1 part in viscosity thicker starve that part and make things worse??

One of the things I dont understand is some owners ( and its their prerogative)
Are putting oils that have different pour temps than the original juice.
Question:
Does anyone think that hurts these transmissions ?
Because I still see owners posting about doing fluid changes to Redline or some such.
1 owner mixed Amsoil and Redline or something together and stuck it in there.
Question 2 : Of all these oils are same specs then how can these be different pour points.

@Maximus Gladius & I was taking about this Level deal . How many have seen dealer use the tires to lift vehicle. ??

 

[ShadowsPapa]

@Maximus Gladius & I was taking about this Level deal . How many have seen dealer use the tires to lift vehicle. ??

You mean like a four post lift?
That's how I'd do it. In fact I hope to have such a lift some day.

I can't ever remember anyone ever doing anything with fluids other than "vehicle level" as if on level ground.

 

[Stan H]

You mean like a four post lift?
That's how I'd do it. In fact I hope to have such a lift some day.

I can't ever remember anyone ever doing anything with fluids other than "vehicle level" as if on level ground.

Yes 99.9% of us are going to use tires on the ground. And a level spot. Using the frame to lift it level not very many of us have that luxury
A 4 post lift is expensive and with that said. How many people have a 100% level spot.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

I was taking about this Level deal . How many have seen dealer use the tires to lift vehicle. ??

Dealerships have lifts that are either 4 post or drive up on. Assuming their lifts are “level” side to side and front to back, I have no clue which way they are lifting.
I think it would be prudent to lift the frame and keep the vehicle level as some of us have certain suspension lean which would cause the “oil level” to also lean.

Will a suspension lean cause oil to drain out or cause extra to go in, when at 87F? Sure.

I think starting “level” as is instructed means, don’t perform this on a hill, don’t give your best guess, don’t do “good enough level” or close enough or when it looks about right level, or doesn’t matter level. Level means, pay attention, grab a 4 or 5’ magnetic level, slap it on the rock sliders and across the front and rear bumpers and level it.

If that means you need four jack stands or wood wedges under a tire , then use whats needed.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I think it would be prudent to lift the frame and keep the vehicle level as some of us have certain suspension lean which would cause the “oil level” to also lean.

Will a suspension lean cause oil to drain out or cause extra to go in, when at 87F? Sure.

You aren't going to get that much more out of or into with just 2 or 3" at either end. The middle doesn't change nearly as much as at the axle. A 2" level at the front of the truck won't change the transmission front end 2".
As far as draining out, what's left in there is int the valve body, clutch packs, torque converter, tilting it up an inch in the front won't change how much comes out of those parts.

Jeep lifts typically raise each end a similar amount. Only level kits change the rake a substantial amount, and then, you have the Overland with a lot of rake and the Mojave with pretty much none.

So just worry about either using 4 stands at equal height under the frame, or doing it wheels on the ground and stop over-thinking it.
If it was a critical or important thing, it would be out there.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

One of the things I dont understand is some owners ( and its their prerogative)
Are putting oils that have different pour temps than the original juice.
Question:
Does anyone think that hurts these transmissions ?

Risky. If I was going to do that I would first have majored in chemistry and can understand the base oils and additives to know I could do that. If doing something like that is because the marketing or design on a he bottles looks cool, then that just makes that person a gambler.

I watched a YouTube tutorial on someone filling their jeep’s transmission and the first push of the pump showed the typical green Mopar ATF going in, then the next pumps was something red followed by the last pumps being the Mopar green.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Risky. If I was going to do that I would first have majored in chemistry and can understand the base oils and additives to know I could do that. If doing something like that is because the marketing or design on a he bottles looks cool, then that just makes that person a gambler.

I watched a YouTube tutorial on someone filling their jeep’s transmission and the first push of the pump showed the typical green Mopar ATF going in, then the next pumps was something red followed by the last pumps being the Mopar green.

For me, it goes back to - don't mix chemistries (as Lake Speed Jr. has suggested as well as another SAE engineer) and why - when we know the MOPAR stuff works, no warranty issues and I don't get the thing there is out there for fancy colors or names.

It's like something that shows you know better than engineers when posting about it on the internet.
Gee, I used Uncle Bubba's magic fluid, 100% compatible with anything. I is smarter than engineers because friends use it and that makes me fit in. People who use the recommended stuff are so boring and unimportant.
(perhaps just a bit of sarcasm in there, whatever)

 

[Maximus Gladius]

So just worry about either using 4 stands at equal height under the frame, or doing it wheels on the ground and stop over-thinking it.
If it was a critical or important thing, it would be out there.

I worried you were going to say my interpretation of “level” was going to wreck something. So what you’re saying is there’s wiggle room to have less or more oil in there depending on which jack is sinking in the ground as long as they all start off at the same hight.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I worried you were going to say my interpretation of “level” was going to wreck something. So what you’re saying is there’s wiggle room to have less or more oil in there depending on which jack is sinking in the ground as long as they all start off at the same hight.

There is a bit more curve to the earth in Canada.
That jack might easily sink into the tundra. Do your floor jacks have tundra tires?

 

[Maximus Gladius]

There is a bit more curve to the earth in Canada.
That jack might easily sink into the tundra. Do your floor jacks have tundra tires?

The earth is flat up here and yes, our jacks come with tundra tires! You win the internet award for the day!

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