Traction control on or off in snowy conditions?

[Wyofuy069]

The first thing we need to realize is that winter driving is different for all of us. Driving in town or on the highway I’d never turn anything off. Where I live there is a lot of open space and often a great deal of blowing and drifted snow. The snow you are going to get soon Papa is falling outside as I write this. I just felt the JT was fighting me with traction control on. I have about a mile of between 12-24 inches of snow to get through. If I slide a little that is ok as there isn’t much to hit out here. As winter got a late start this year I’m still experimenting with different modes. Have to say the Mohave is very sure-footed on ice with studded LT3 Hakkapeliitta’s.

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[MPMB]

The first thing we need to realize is that winter driving is different for all of us. Driving in town or on the highway I’d never turn anything off. Where I live there is a lot of open space and often a great deal of blowing and drifted snow. The snow you are going to get soon Papa is falling outside as I write this. I just felt the JT was fighting me with traction control on. I have about a mile of between 12-24 inches of snow to get through. If I slide a little that is ok as there isn’t much to hit out here. As winter got a late start this year I’m still experimenting with different modes. Have to say the Mohave is very sure-footed on ice with studded LT3 Hakkapeliitta’s.

I love the snow around the Rockies. Nice and dry, for the most part. I drove home to WA from Jackson one year and going up 15 north of Dillon I was going 70-75mph and getting passed by semis on mostly clear road. Around here, people would drive it 35mph.

We hit I90 and stopped for breakfast since a blizzard rolled in. Couldn't see any of the tall signs until you were 100ft from them. After breakfast we hit the road. Saw a few cars in the median that got sucked by the shoulder. These cars shouldn't even been driving in these conditions. One was an 80s Caddy or Oldsmobile. Door-to-door travel time was 19 hours, which included a detour because I90 in WA was closed from Vantage to Ellensburg - multiple spinouts up a long, windy hill.

Driving around town in Jackson was easy; driving through the park great. Going off on side roads over by Gros Ventre was entertaining (although I lost a spotlight that was mounted too low).

On one trip a handful of us piled into our rental Suburban and headed out pre-dawn for some sunrise shots. Driving out the middle of nowhere, going passed the snowpark and following a sled trail... well we found a spot to turn around before it got real hairy. For about 2 miles it was a crawl, but the speedo said 25-30mph. lol.

Went to West Yellowstone a few Thanksgivings ago. Drove the backroads to Jackson. Saw a moose and her kid on the way back. Wish I knew there was a cross country skiing event that weekend. So many Subawoos. Snow level was everything from bare and wet to compact snow and ice to 10-12" powder.

Our snow in WA is usually so wet after a few cars drive over it and compact it, it's slicker than snot. Then in freezes overnight. Melts in the day, the water freezes at night, and then you wake up to black ice. This past week we had good snow that was mostly dry, by our standards.

 

[alosix]

I've been pleasantly surprised that the nannies aren't too horrible in the snow for me so far.

The ABS still triggers as bit early to get enough weight transfer to turn at times.

That said, if I'm hustling up the 5 miles of mountain dirt road to my house.. Everything is off (a la tazer). The JT still has a habit of doing the opposite of what I want there. Thankfully the chassis tuning seems to have yielded a rather predictable vehicle with everything off.

Also 4wd can help in the snow:


But then, I'm used to that. The center and front diff tuning on the race car (ARA L4wd subaru) is setup to start locking the center diff and the 1.5 way in the front provides a slight lockup, greatly improving braking on loose surfaces. (granted on snow we'd probably swap in a one way and loosen the center up).

My go to config if its uber slick is everything off and front swaybar disconnected. Softening the front up a bit will help it turn (and without a center diff it really doesn't want to turn)

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Also 4wd can help in the snow:

They over-simplify things a bit IMO.........
Not all 4x4 systems lock the front and rear driveshaft solidly. There can still be a difference in rotational speeds on some transfer cases.
Odd that they contradict what others say on wanting those front wheels to lock or not. Other safety tips suggest you do want the front wheels to lock to decrease stopping distance.
You can lose directional control - but if distance is the key, leave it out of 4 wheel mode and don't let the antilock brakes work and you'll stop quicker.
Putting it in 4 wheel drive where you have a part time transfer case will keep the front wheels turning - but increase stopping distance according to multiple sites, even according to what some other forum members have posted in the past - the rock, sand, dirt, snow, forms a wedge ahead of the tires. The stopped tires are shoving against that wedge and building it up - stopping you sooner.
That video is suggesting you don't want that to happen.
Ice is a different animal - no soft material to form that wedge to help slow the vehicle, and you need to maintain directional control.

ABS actually increases stopping distances on snowy surfaces, as well as those covered in other loose materials, such as gravel or sand. Without ABS, locked tires dig into the snow and form a wedge in front of the tire by pushing it forward. This wedge helps bring the car to a stop even though the vehicle skids. With ABS, the wedge never forms and the skid is prevented. The driver may regain the ability to steer, but their stopping distance actually increases with the engaged ABS.

Ice: So long as the driver does not pump the brakes on partially icy roads, the ABS will aid the driver in both stopping and steering the vehicle. The driver only needs to keep the brake pedal depressed. If the entire road is coated in ice, the ABS won’t engage and will behave as though the vehicle is already stopped. The driver will need to pump the brakes to stop safely.

 

[mbush91]

Just a theory here - if it's in 4 wheel drive mode, since the front and rear drive shafts lock together (thus the part time only) if the truck is moving, all wheels would be turning at the same time. If you slip at the rear, you have to keep the same driveshaft RPM at the front, so I'm trying to figure out how it would detect spinning wheels and cut torque in deep snow when the transfer case is locked in 4H or 4L.
Won't you have the same driveshaft RPM front and rear - and especially if limited slip, about all that could happen is a front wheel spin faster than the other 3?
The only time I had problems moving in deep snow was last year I decided to not clear the driveway - and our driveway is up hill to get out (my 4x4 lawn tractor slips on it in the snow)
I got stopped 3/4 of the way up - was spinning all wheels and the engine never was cut back, likely because the traction control assumed since all 4 were spinning, I was moving.
I noticed at least on my Chevy, if one wheel started to slip the ABS kicked in and slowed that wheel, forcing the torque to go to the others. It never cut torque, it "walked" up the hill and through the snow.

Just thinking and wondering how would it work since both driveshafts are locked together so you get equal torque to each differential.......

I guess you do whatever works.
but I've not had my JT bog down in deep snow - it keeps moving until I spin more than one wheel then the idea is to NOT spin because if you get to a point of no return, you have dug a hole and piled up packed snow behind you, making it harder to back up and make a run. (I've watched a few silly drivers spin trying to get going and they simply make a hole and can no longer back up because of the wedge of packed snow behind them. One was a truck driver - should have known better!)

ABS, TCS, and ESC are braking features more than anything else. Your brake control module watches your wheel speeds/slip along with yaw, steering angle, throttle, and a bunch of other signals to determine how to apply brakes to keep you going the direction you want to go. In general, unless you want to do doughnuts in a parking lot you should never turn them off as they will detect slippage and start reacting long before you ever could.

If you really want to see what they do find and empty parking lot and try to spin out with everything on, then TCS off, then advanced traction off. You’ll see the difference and at high speeds that difference magnifies. Another fun one is to park on a large sheet of ice and try to get off it with everything disabled, then turn it back on and see how you crawl out.

-A Brake Controls Engineer

 

[ShadowsPapa]

ABS, TCS, and ESC are braking features more than anything else. Your brake control module watches your wheel speeds/slip along with yaw, steering angle, throttle, and a bunch of other signals to determine how to apply brakes to keep you going the direction you want to go. In general, unless you want to do doughnuts in a parking lot you should never turn them off as they will detect slippage and start reacting long before you ever could.

If you really want to see what they do find and empty parking lot and try to spin out with everything on, then TCS off, then advanced traction off. You’ll see the difference and at high speeds that difference magnifies. Another fun one is to park on a large sheet of ice and try to get off it with everything disabled, then turn it back on and see how you crawl out.

-A Brake Controls Engineer

Yup. Pretty much what I figured. The best donuts I ever did was with my AMX with limited slip. Man it was SO easy to go spinning in the old Sears parking lot after an ice storm (my first wife enjoyed such hijinks as well)

Proof of how well it can work was how my Silverado would walk up my icy driveway.
Evidence indicating it ain't working or works like crap on my Gladiator is that this truck gets stuck in my driveway without 4 wheel drive and I can hit the gas a bit firmly when an intersection is wet and make it swing sideways without the vehicle even responding. (I have to let up to recover)

(former brake/suspension/steering person from years ago....... during advent of ABS but not later )

 

[Eaglebob]

First major snow in california sierras, and the first pic they show is a Gladiator stuck in a snowbank. 4WD or not, “A man has got to know his limitations” Inspector Calahan or better known as Dirty Harry.

 

[dcmdon]

Let me just add this.
At least 80-90% of the vehicles I see here in the ditch on the highway are….AWD or 4WD.
Better traction….higher speeds….bigger loss of control when shit happens.
Of those vehicles in the ditch the majority are lifted full size pickups driven by younger, inexperienced, coal rolling, inconsiderate, road raging, punks.
I chuckle when I drive by.

4wd/awd doesn't help with stability, braking or turning.

People seem to forget that.

I know I'm beating a dead horse. But its all about the tires, tires, tires.

 

[Trippin01]

For me? Speed is the variable. If I'm going Highway/Interstate speeds (which to me is white knuckle driving conditions in a JT) I have it on. If I'm in Deep snow (6" or more) I have it off so I can spin the tires to clear the tread. Personally, I hate how the JT (I have a Sport MT) handles on slick roads over 45-40mph, compared to our 2018 RX450h Lexus, with snow tires ,which has far more slippery road finesse than any Jeep. Parents just got a 2021 Grand Cherokee, and the Lexus traction control will out perform it any day on slick/icy roads. I have the front wheel drive Hyundai VT and it is great on slick or icy roads, while I love the low center of gravity and the sure footedness of the VT, it does leave me feeling very vulnerable on those same slick roads as far as taking a hit & safety goes. JT is my favorite for the deeper snow, and no traction control at low speeds, but it feels like a drunk, lumbering, pregnant goat wearing roller skates on icy roads. JMO. Everywhere else I love it.

 

[dcmdon]

For me? Speed is the variable. If I'm going Highway/Interstate speeds (which to me is white knuckle driving conditions in a JT) I have it on. If I'm in Deep snow (6" or more) I have it off so I can spin the tires to clear the tread. Personally, I hate how the JT (I have a Sport MT) handles on slick roads over 45-40mph, compared to our 2018 RX450h Lexus, with snow tires ,which has far more slippery road finesse than any Jeep. Parents just got a 2021 Grand Cherokee, and the Lexus traction control will out perform it any day on slick/icy roads. I have the front wheel drive Hyundai VT and it is great on slick or icy roads, while I love the low center of gravity and the sure footedness of the VT, it does leave me feeling very vulnerable on those same slick roads as far as taking a hit & safety goes. JT is my favorite for the deeper snow, and no traction control at low speeds, but it feels like a drunk, lumbering, pregnant goat wearing roller skates on icy roads. JMO. Everywhere else I love it.

I don't quite understand. Did you say you had snows on the Jeep or that it wasn't anywhere near as good as your Lexus RX450, which has snows?

Its funny what you said about your Hyundai. My wife's Miata with a limited slip became a ball of fun in the snow once we put a set of Michelin Arctic Ice snows on it. . . . as long as you weren't in traffic. In traffic you felt very vulnerable. On a quiet road or at lower speeds it was like riding a dirt bike in the mud. Crank the throttle open and drift or feather the throttle and it reels itself in instantly.

 

[Trippin01]

I don't quite understand. Did you say you had snows on the Jeep or that it wasn't anywhere near as good as your Lexus RX450, which has snows?

Its funny what you said about your Hyundai. My wife's Miata with a limited slip became a ball of fun in the snow once we put a set of Michelin Arctic Ice snows on it. . . . as long as you weren't in traffic. In traffic you felt very vulnerable. On a quiet road or at lower speeds it was like riding a dirt bike in the mud. Crank the throttle open and drift or feather the throttle and it reels itself in instantly.

I have these 37's on right now;

Yokohama Geolander G003
but I have these on another set of wheels for my JT (33") which work better on slick roads, but not as good in deep snow.
the same tire for a winter tire on the Lexus, just a lexus size;

Cooper Discoverer AT3

 

[ShadowsPapa]

4wd/awd doesn't help with stability, braking or turning.

People seem to forget that.

I know I'm beating a dead horse. But its all about the tires, tires, tires.

Yeah, it "can" because I've seen people pull out of slides or bad situations by giving a little gas when that front differential can power the front wheels. Years ago my first wife's father gave a demonstration in his IH 4x4. Having trouble with a turn - give a bit of gas. Stability in some cases - yeah, I had trouble making a hill on I80 the rear end wanted to go to the side, pulled that lever, gave it some gas and pulled out of it. The problem is when you have rear wheels providing all of the power it's like pushing a rope up a hill. But add pull on the other end and it can help.
It's not a fix-all and should not be relied on like too many fools do - they go into 4 wheel stupid as one local taxi driver describes it.

For me? Speed is the variable. If I'm going Highway/Interstate speeds (which to me is white knuckle driving conditions in a JT) I have it on. If I'm in Deep snow (6" or more) I have it off so I can spin the tires to clear the tread. Personally, I hate how the JT (I have a Sport MT) handles on slick roads over 45-40mph, compared to our 2018 RX450h Lexus, with snow tires ,which has far more slippery road finesse than any Jeep. Parents just got a 2021 Grand Cherokee, and the Lexus traction control will out perform it any day on slick/icy roads. I have the front wheel drive Hyundai VT and it is great on slick or icy roads, while I love the low center of gravity and the sure footedness of the VT, it does leave me feeling very vulnerable on those same slick roads as far as taking a hit & safety goes. JT is my favorite for the deeper snow, and no traction control at low speeds, but it feels like a drunk, lumbering, pregnant goat wearing roller skates on icy roads. JMO. Everywhere else I love it.

For really slick my wife's Grand Cherokee is superior. I've not driven anything as stable as that thing. I don't even bother clearing snow for her vehicle and I don't worry (much) about her being out in bad weather with it. It's fantastic (I don't have a Lexus to compare to - and you mention the Lexus has snow tires? - well..........)
The WK2 has street tires, all weather tires so comparing to another vehicle with anything else shouldn't count.
The JT is not an ice truck, it's a typical 2 wheel drive rear wheel drive light truck when it's really slick.

 

[dcmdon]

My comparison with 4wd/awd cars and 2wd cars I had FWD more in mind. Not RWD.

A fwd car skidding is benign. A normal drivers instinctive reaction to lift off the gas and turn the wheel more is the correct reaction for a fwd car. But like you said, may not be the right thing to do for a rear wheel drive car.

But then again, for older guys like us this may have become second nature. But with modern stability control systems it doesn't really matter which end drives. The car will be stable.

In fact a RWD car without stability control is far less stable than 4wd or awd. So in that case I should have added the caveat that the RWD car has stability control.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

A normal drivers instinctive reaction to lift off the gas and turn the wheel more is the correct reaction for a fwd car. But like you said, may not be the right thing to do for a rear wheel drive car.

For FRONT wheel drive cars if you start to slide you actually apply gas to pull out of it.
"lift off the gas" not going to pull you out... Give it gas to pull you out of a slide.
Similar for 4 wheel drive in some cases. My former FIL demonstrated that on an open slick road. It was scary but he did a brilliant demonstration (maybe it was his military training, he knew how to handle 4x4s better than many people I knew)

For rear wheel drive you DO want to let off the gas. You are pushing a rope. Let off and let the car straighten out.

I learned two things from truck drivers - one of them my boss in the 80s who at that time ran wreckers. Keep it in as high a gear as you can - that helps prevent the engine from having enough torque to break the rear wheels loose, and avoid changing speed and direction. That's physics.
things in motion want to keep going in the same speed and direction.
Use physics - avoid changing speed and direction, and prevent the engine from breaking the wheels loose by staying in a high gear.

Start to slide or lose stability with front wheel drive - give it some gas and it should pull out of it.
Start to slide or lose stability with rear wheel drive - let off the gas, let the rear wheels regain grip.
(the latter I proved with my JT when it started to spin and slip sideways on the rear end last month - letting up it stopped sliding and I could feel it jerk and regain traction and I carried on forward)

 

[Trippin01]

For me? Speed & ice or snow are the variables. If I'm going Highway/Interstate speeds on ice/black ice (which to me is white knuckle driving conditions in a JT) I have it on. If I'm in Deep snow (6" or more) I have it off so I can spin the tires to clear the tread. Personally, I hate how the JT (I have a Sport MT) handles on slick roads over 40-45mph, compared to our 2018 RX450h Lexus, with snow tires ,which has far more slippery road finesse than any Jeep. Parents just got a 2021 Grand Cherokee, and the Lexus traction control will out perform it any day on slick/icy roads (Grand Cherokee is quite good tho). I have the front wheel drive Hyundai VT and it is great on slick or icy roads (little or no snow), while I love the low center of gravity and the sure footedness of the FWD VT, it does leave me feeling very vulnerable on those same slick roads as far as taking a hit & safety goes. JT is my favorite for the deeper snow, with no traction control at low speeds, but it feels like a drunk, lumbering, pregnant goat wearing roller skates on icy roads. JMO. Everywhere else I love it.

In a nut shell, Icy/slick roads=white knuckle driving for me(traction control on), Snowy roads = Awesome, even fun(traction control off).

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