2020 Gladiator Towing (Overland)

bjohnsonmn

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Sorry, I may have read this wrong but when you say; "without filling the tanks and using a WDH", are you saying not filling the tanks but "yes" using a WDH or not using a WDH? I personally would not tow a 4500# TT without a WDH with a Gladiator. You could get by without one on a ton truck.
...
Thank you for chiming in on this! Yeah, I would trust about 25% of the RV sales people I have talked with about weights and real world towing performance... Most of them wouldn't know the math you need to do to figure this all out.





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gwpeaks

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Ok. I've been attempting to read about WDH's (again) but I'm still confused. If the dry hitch weight of a trailer is 456lbs does that weight go up when the trailer is loaded? I'm thinking it does based on other responses. Assuming it does, to say 490lbs, do I add ALL 490lbs when totaling cargo capacity or is that reduced by a WDH? I've seen and heard all sorts of responses from 50% to 30% to 0%.

Here is the scenario. My Gladiator has a cargo capacity limit of 1078lbs. (per the door sticker)If I add up the weight of all passengers, the dogs, the bed cover, and misc. crap, I'm at roughly 675lbs. Add the total 490lbs of hitch weight and I'm at 1165lbs. This is obviously over the max cargo capacity. Does the WDH take away from the 1165lbs or not? I'm 24 hours away from dropping $30k on a travel trailer and I simply cannot decipher whether my Gladiator is capable or not. Even if the WDH does not take away from the 490lbs at all I'm literally within 150lbs of being within the numbers. This is so frustrating because I run into the same issue regardless of how much smaller of a trailer I look at.

ANY insight is much appreciated as I have zero experience with this stuff.
 

tmcarr

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Piling on your thread a little, but adding a new question to the mix:

I am in a similar scenario, but have not picked the travel trailer yet.

Me: 2020JT Rubicon, 1112 Cargo Capacity on the sticker, 7000#/700# rated towing weights.

I am lifting theJT (2.5" Teraflex with fully adjustable control arms), going to 315/70R17 BFG KO2's (Truck weight (C) so long as the capacities match the door jam sticker weight capacity), I'm either putting the heavier RockHard belly skids or the lighter Arctec (only add 10# net). Keeping the stock shocks (advised trail and towing reports are they match well with this lift with the spacer in the front) Retaining the rear coils (The TF 2.5" uses a small spacer in the rear coils).

Long story short: We are planning on long distance tows, about 6 times per year. Likely only 2-4runs over mountain passes (I-70, I-90) each year, 1-2 real wheeling trips each year (CO Front Range, Moab).

Essentially, I figure our starting weights are:

Passengers + must have in cab items: 390# (That's figuring in a lot of stuff)
Full Fuel: 139#
Minimum "Maximum" Cargo on Cab: 529#
Net GVW remaining: 583#

583# - 10% of 450# of crap (We travel light, but I would move recovery gear to the trailer to reduce GVW of those items by 90%) = 538#

538# - Additional weight of armor (25# net) = 513# Max on the road Tongue Weight.

Does that all check? If it does, at that point with the appropriately set weight distribution hitch, tire inflation, brake settings, etc. would that be a comfortable tow? Figuring that we would likely be under 5000# total weight of the trailer with all of the model travel trailers we are looking at.

OR, am I being ultra conservative on this and pushing the loaded tongue weight to 550# would not cause issues for safety or comfort.
I like your term "comfortable tow"...a lot of people miss that point. If you push your weights to the max, you may be under what OEM says is safe, but is it a "comfortable tow" or a white-knuckle ride? ;-)
I must defer to the experts on here who have experience with using a lifted vehicle to tow with...I have none. It sounds like you will be under all the OEM ratings, providing the Teraflex parts have similar or beefier ratings. BFG's you cited are rated at 2535# ea, so you are good there (GAWR Frt 3100#, GAWR Rr 3750#).
My only concern is your final drive ratio. I am by no means an expert, but the stock Falken A/T or M/T LT285/70R17C roll at 617 revs per mile, the BFG's above roll at 604 revs per mile. I don't do math in public, but I am sure there are some folks on here that can tell you how that will effect your gearing. This won't be a capacity issue, but a performance issue...maybe, maybe not, just something to keep in mind. (You may also need an offset (dropped) hitch to compensate for the lift to keep your TT level).
 

tmcarr

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Ok. I've been attempting to read about WDH's (again) but I'm still confused. If the dry hitch weight of a trailer is 456lbs does that weight go up when the trailer is loaded? I'm thinking it does based on other responses. Assuming it does, to say 490lbs, do I add ALL 490lbs when totaling cargo capacity or is that reduced by a WDH? I've seen and heard all sorts of responses from 50% to 30% to 0%.

Here is the scenario. My Gladiator has a cargo capacity limit of 1078lbs. (per the door sticker)If I add up the weight of all passengers, the dogs, the bed cover, and misc. crap, I'm at roughly 675lbs. Add the total 490lbs of hitch weight and I'm at 1165lbs. This is obviously over the max cargo capacity. Does the WDH take away from the 1165lbs or not? I'm 24 hours away from dropping $30k on a travel trailer and I simply cannot decipher whether my Gladiator is capable or not. Even if the WDH does not take away from the 490lbs at all I'm literally within 150lbs of being within the numbers. This is so frustrating because I run into the same issue regardless of how much smaller of a trailer I look at.

ANY insight is much appreciated as I have zero experience with this stuff.
I understand your dilemma. Doing the towing math can become a quagmire of numbers. We haven't even discussed the drag coefficient of the rated square footage of the towed trailer frontal area. Just kidding...kinda.
The WDH will redistribute the weight burden to the axles...it will not reduce the total weight (laws of physics still apply), but it will allow you to relocate some of the weight. How much? Theoretically, as much as you want (or until something breaks). However, more realistically, you want to stay at that 10% of total TT weight. The WDH takes some of the drive axle weight and moves it forward (to steer axle) and backwards (to TT axle(s)), not exactly equally, because the steering axle and the TT axle is not the same distance from the hitch/drive axle and some TT have single axle some tandem. I said all that to say this, the only way you will know for sure is to physically weigh it. I understand that you can't do that until you spend your $30k. So, will a WDH allow you move 150# forward or backward...probably. Remember, whatever weight is moved forward is still on your TV and will be calculated as TV GVWR. You can only subtract the weight the WDH moves rearward (to TT) from your TV GVWR. (Not sure I did a good job of explaining that, but Papa posted a real good graphic earlier in this thread). I don't typically give advise, but $30k is a lot of money to me and based on some of my past purchases, I, like you, would want to be sure I can tow it comfortably.
IMHO, if you are 150# overweight on your calculated tongue weight, you should be able to adjust that much weight off your tongue. This can be accomplished by; relocating some of the referenced "misc. crap" to the TT (not an option for the passengers unfortunately), using a WDH will relocate some weight to TT axle, re-adjusting some of the TT load to behind the TT axles (which by Archimedes principle will remove some of your tongue weight). By my math this should get you under OEM payload/tongue weights. But remember, any weight you physically relocate to your TT increases it's total GVWR and 10% of that weight needs to go to the tongue weight. Good luck with your purchase, the fact that you are concerned and asking questions leads me to believe you will make a good, informed buying decision.
 

bjohnsonmn

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I like your term "comfortable tow"...a lot of people miss that point. If you push your weights to the max, you may be under what OEM says is safe, but is it a "comfortable tow" or a white-knuckle ride? ;-)
I must defer to the experts on here who have experience with using a lifted vehicle to tow with...I have none. It sounds like you will be under all the OEM ratings, providing the Teraflex parts have similar or beefier ratings. BFG's you cited are rated at 2535# ea, so you are good there (GAWR Frt 3100#, GAWR Rr 3750#).
My only concern is your final drive ratio. I am by no means an expert, but the stock Falken A/T or M/T LT285/70R17C roll at 617 revs per mile, the BFG's above roll at 604 revs per mile. I don't do math in public, but I am sure there are some folks on here that can tell you how that will effect your gearing. This won't be a capacity issue, but a performance issue...maybe, maybe not, just something to keep in mind. (You may also need an offset (dropped) hitch to compensate for the lift to keep your TT level).
Thanks!
So a few items: The Teraflex parts are VERY beefy. And, with them being adjustable, I can dial in the geometry to be in the highest performing position (safe).
Good to hear someone else validate what I thought of the BFG's for capability.
I ran the exact same wheels and tires on my 2012 JKU with 3.73 gears. I found it serviceable, but had plans to go up to 4.58's (4.10 would have likely been OK, but that was a stock non-rubicon T-case and the 2012 transmission). I will bet that the 4.10 with this transmission will do well, but re-gearing is on the table. I believe it won't hurt to try the 4.10s, but I may not get the top level of performance going up the hill on I-70.
On the hitch, I'll be doing an adjustable drop/weight distribution hitch. With only going up 1" in the back, it won't be as bad as say going up 3.5" in front and back.

Question remains: Does the cargo sticker on the door take into account a full tank of gas? OR, does the 134# of full fuel reduce the sticker's 1,112# cargo capacity...
 
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gwpeaks

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I understand your dilemma. Doing the towing math can become a quagmire of numbers. We haven't even discussed the drag coefficient of the rated square footage of the towed trailer frontal area. Just kidding...kinda.
The WDH will redistribute the weight burden to the axles...it will not reduce the total weight (laws of physics still apply), but it will allow you to relocate some of the weight. How much? Theoretically, as much as you want (or until something breaks). However, more realistically, you want to stay at that 10% of total TT weight. The WDH takes some of the drive axle weight and moves it forward (to steer axle) and backwards (to TT axle(s)), not exactly equally, because the steering axle and the TT axle is not the same distance from the hitch/drive axle and some TT have single axle some tandem. I said all that to say this, the only way you will know for sure is to physically weigh it. I understand that you can't do that until you spend your $30k. So, will a WDH allow you move 150# forward or backward...probably. Remember, whatever weight is moved forward is still on your TV and will be calculated as TV GVWR. You can only subtract the weight the WDH moves rearward (to TT) from your TV GVWR. (Not sure I did a good job of explaining that, but Papa posted a real good graphic earlier in this thread). I don't typically give advise, but $30k is a lot of money to me and based on some of my past purchases, I, like you, would want to be sure I can tow it comfortably.
IMHO, if you are 150# overweight on your calculated tongue weight, you should be able to adjust that much weight off your tongue. This can be accomplished by; relocating some of the referenced "misc. crap" to the TT (not an option for the passengers unfortunately), using a WDH will relocate some weight to TT axle, re-adjusting some of the TT load to behind the TT axles (which by Archimedes principle will remove some of your tongue weight). By my math this should get you under OEM payload/tongue weights. But remember, any weight you physically relocate to your TT increases it's total GVWR and 10% of that weight needs to go to the tongue weight. Good luck with your purchase, the fact that you are concerned and asking questions leads me to believe you will make a good, informed buying decision.
Thanks so much for the informative answer. I've figured the weight INSIDE of the truck conservatively (adding pounds for kids as they grow as well as myself and my wife). By my figures, we can load 400lbs to the TT (excluding water tanks which we won't fill) and be within all the manufacturer numbers IF I am able to shift around 150lbs from the hitch to the TT using the WDH. I have VERY little wiggle room though. If we go above the numbers I've estimated than I will most likely be ready to upgrade vehicles at that point.

The sales people at all the dealerships we've visited (numerous) all indicate that a WDH would work but I do not trust them. I just want to be sure that we can camp comfortably and be safe to and from the sites we visit.
 

tmcarr

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Thanks!
So a few items: The Teraflex parts are VERY beefy. And, with them being adjustable, I can dial in the geometry to be in the highest performing position (safe).
Good to hear someone else validate what I thought of the BFG's for capability.
I ran the exact same wheels and tires on my 2012 JKU with 3.73 gears. I found it serviceable, but had plans to go up to 4.58's (4.10 would have likely been OK, but that was a stock non-rubicon T-case and the 2012 transmission). I will bet that the 4.10 with this transmission will do well, but re-gearing is on the table. I believe it won't hurt to try the 4.10s, but I may not get the top level of performance going up the hill on I-70.
On the hitch, I'll be doing an adjustable drop/weight distribution hitch. With only going up 1" in the back, it won't be as bad as say going up 3.5" in front and back.

Question remains: Does the cargo sticker on the door take into account a full tank of gas? OR, does the 134# of full fuel reduce the sticker's 1,112# cargo capacity...
Sounds like you are on top of the performance and hitch aspect.
My understanding is that the Payload Capacity takes into account everything that the vehicle came with from the factory and including a full tank of fuel.
 

tmcarr

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Thanks so much for the informative answer. I've figured the weight INSIDE of the truck conservatively (adding pounds for kids as they grow as well as myself and my wife). By my figures, we can load 400lbs to the TT (excluding water tanks which we won't fill) and be within all the manufacturer numbers IF I am able to shift around 150lbs from the hitch to the TT using the WDH. I have VERY little wiggle room though. If we go above the numbers I've estimated than I will most likely be ready to upgrade vehicles at that point.

The sales people at all the dealerships we've visited (numerous) all indicate that a WDH would work but I do not trust them. I just want to be sure that we can camp comfortably and be safe to and from the sites we visit.
GW, I was able to shift approx 200# using WDH on a JLUS, Andersen WDH and a 3100# TT. I'm guessing you may be able to make it work.
Upgrade to what??? They don't make a Trail Rated, 1-ton Dually convertible. ;-)
 
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gwpeaks

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GW, I was able to shift approx 200# using WDH on a JLUS, Andersen WDH and a 3100# TT. I'm guessing you may be able to make it work.
Upgrade to what??? They don't make a Trail Rated, 1-ton Dually convertible. ;-)
Ha ha, I meant upgrade to a Rubicon. I've been a Jeeper for a long time and don't plan on changing.....
 

tmcarr

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Ha ha, I meant upgrade to a Rubicon. I've been a Jeeper for a long time and don't plan on changing.....
I was being facetious.
Upgrade to Rubicon or possibly downgrade to S with Max Tow depending on whether your rock crawl or tow mostly (S-Max Tow has higher towing/tongue weight specs). If you do either, don't forget the diesel is coming.
 
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I was being facetious.
Upgrade to Rubicon or possibly downgrade to S with Max Tow depending on whether your rock crawl or tow mostly (S-Max Tow has higher towing/tongue weight specs). If you do either, don't forget the diesel is coming.
Out of curiosity, did you have to factor in the weight of the WDH itself against your payload? I'm reading through a different forum on the subject and it's making my head spin. If I can alleviate the payload by 150lbs than I will be within all the recommended numbers UNLESS the weight of the hitch itself has to be counted. I don't know what they weigh but I don't have any wiggle room with all of this.
 

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Out of curiosity, did you have to factor in the weight of the WDH itself against your payload? I'm reading through a different forum on the subject and it's making my head spin. If I can alleviate the payload by 150lbs than I will be within all the recommended numbers UNLESS the weight of the hitch itself has to be counted. I don't know what they weigh but I don't have any wiggle room with all of this.
Yep, everything has to be counted. I used an Andersen hitch. It uses chains instead of a heavy bar and provides anti-sway without the friction piece. It is much lighter than standard Blue Ox and the like.
 

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Yep, everything has to be counted. I used an Andersen hitch. It uses chains instead of a heavy bar and provides anti-sway without the friction piece. It is much lighter than standard Blue Ox and the like.
I am just curious (because that's how I am) - how does an anti-sway hitch work sans the friction or brake type material and plate that slides between the friction pads?
I don't neede such a thing with a car hauler - just wondering.
 
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Yep, everything has to be counted. I used an Andersen hitch. It uses chains instead of a heavy bar and provides anti-sway without the friction piece. It is much lighter than standard Blue Ox and the like.
Ugh. So just so I'm clear the weight of all passengers and cargo, plus the hitch weight of the trailer (10% of the total trailer weight loaded), and the weight of the hitch itself gets subtracted from my max cargo capacity (1078lbs)? In my case that puts me over by around 250lbs. Based on your post earlier, am I to understand the excess weight can be distributed back to the trailer to bring me under the 1078lb limit? I read somewhere that a WDH would distribute the hitch weight across the two axles of the vehicle as well as the axles of the trailer. I just can't wrap my brain around how that affects payload (cargo capacity).

I hate asking these questions because I feel dumb. I just want to feel comfortable before I hit the road with my wife and kids in the vehicle.
 

bjohnsonmn

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Ok... So more clarity.

I weighed my rig today at a CAT scale with a fully topped gas tank (Went from the pump to the scale, Me not in it because those scale intercoms are setup for semi's not JTs!)

The results:

Steer Axle: 2,700#
Drive Axle: 2,460#
GrosVW: 5,160#

GVWR: 6,250#

So, true cargo and people capacity with a full tank of gas of my exact rig is: 1,090#

Now, here's my math if someone wants to make doubly sure that my assumptions are all correct:

Curb weight with a full tank: 5,160#
Me and the Mrs.: + 350# (Includes clothes, purse according to Mrs.)
Crap that needs to be in the bed or cab: +40# (Laptop, camera bag, etc)
New Curb Weight: 5,550#
Available Tongue Weight (max): 700# (Well now isn't that a coincidence)

Then, there's more:
Weight of all aftermarket parts: +50# (Swaps, etc. based on experience and manufacturer conversations)

Realistic New Curb Weight: 5,600#
Realistic Available Max Tongue: 650#
GCWR: 12,450#
Realistic Available Max Trailer Weight: 6,850# (This is not realistic due to the 10% rule on Tongue)

SO, bottom line. In my specific case: I can legally tow with the above assumptions:

6,490#GTW and 649# Tongue.

I would then estimate that my comfortable towing level to be:

5,900# GTW and 590# Tongue (but with a bias toward moving the tongue weight to 12-13% of GTW)

Does that math check out? If so, I will also make a new post with the process flow here because I believe there are a LOT of new JT owners that would benefit from this very level of detail.

Cheers!
B
 

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