3.6 Engine Tick

[ShadowsPapa]

Well that suggests an oiling issue doesnt it?

It makes me wonder.
However, "oiling issue" should mean phaser troubles, lash adjuster issues, chain tensioner issues and so on since it comes from the same source. The oil gallery feeds the camshaft bearing journals via hole in the front end of the shaft, and the followers and cam lobes through the lash adjusters.

Something would have to cause a lack of oil to the head and it's a fairly large passage.
I'd want to run something through the passages in the heads to be sure of how clean and open things were. But I know most will just throw new shafts and followers on the head and move on.

I'd be interested in what oil was used, the viscosity, age/miles and so on, as well.

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[BrawnyBen]

I have a 2020 JT, I had a tick under load that was fairly faint but noticeable. I scheduled it with my local dealer expecting them to say it was nothing but they told me I had a keen ear and ordered right bank cams. The parts are a couple weeks out so I'm driving it in the meantime because its not bad yet. I was pleasantly surprised by their response to be honest.

2020 JTR with 47K miles.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

My take on such wear -
If I was put into a situation where I knew the cams were bad or going bad, and I saw or suspected some of the physical and visible damage that exists on some of the cams in images presented on these forums over the years - my Jeep would sit.

On one hand, it shouldn't matter as any metal or wear bits resulting from the damage should be filtered out and only clean oil moving through the engine.

Yes, but............ the oil filter is only good for so many microns, plus, oil filters do have a bypass system. If the filter gets plugged (from debris - or a combination of debris and heavy oil on a cold start) the oil filter is pushed aside and oil is allowed to bypass the filter. The idea being that some oil is better than no oil, and shredding an oil filter isn't any good in itself.
Oil filters have bypass valves.

Debris from the front cam journal, should that one wear, can travel to the phaser and chain tensioner via the channel cut in the head to allow oil to go to multiple locations from that point.

Debris from the other cam journals should simply wash out of the journal area and drop back into the oil pan/sump where it will be picked up and collected in the oil pump. Cool, now you have debris from the cam lobes, followers, whatever, down in the sump and being pulled up into that complex dual displacement oil pump with that pivoting vane which could get stuck in low volume mode leaving you with reduced oil volume/flow and lower pressure at higher speeds.

I'd be torn, but I usually lean toward "let it sit" when there's stuff floating around that shouldn't be. I'd also opt for, once it was "fixed", insisting they do a full oil change right after they replace the parts and before they even start it, and then 100-200 miles later, doing another oil/filter change.

 

[seven30]

It makes me wonder.
However, "oiling issue" should mean phaser troubles, lash adjuster issues, chain tensioner issues and so on since it comes from the same source. The oil gallery feeds the camshaft bearing journals via hole in the front end of the shaft, and the followers and cam lobes through the lash adjusters.

Something would have to cause a lack of oil to the head and it's a fairly large passage.
I'd want to run something through the passages in the heads to be sure of how clean and open things were. But I know most will just throw new shafts and followers on the head and move on.

I'd be interested in what oil was used, the viscosity, age/miles and so on, as well.

Right what could bleed off nearly all head pressure? I'd like to see the other bank. Hard to imagine only one head lost oil supply. Hard to imagine only heads lost pressure. Whats the bottom end looks like?

 

[Charles 236]

It makes me wonder.
However, "oiling issue" should mean phaser troubles, lash adjuster issues, chain tensioner issues and so on since it comes from the same source. The oil gallery feeds the camshaft bearing journals via hole in the front end of the shaft, and the followers and cam lobes through the lash adjusters.

Something would have to cause a lack of oil to the head and it's a fairly large passage.
I'd want to run something through the passages in the heads to be sure of how clean and open things were. But I know most will just throw new shafts and followers on the head and move on.

I'd be interested in what oil was used, the viscosity, age/miles and so on, as well.

That head is for a "Classic" Pentastar, without Variable Valve Lift. There is a third oil passage in the VVL Pentastar heads. It is possible to have VVL issues without any problems in the Variable Valve Timing system. Oil gallery plugs can be loose or missing on any of the three passages in the head. I always check for the plugs and make sure they are tight.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

My take on such wear -
If I was put into a situation where I knew the cams were bad or going bad, and I saw or suspected some of the physical and visible damage that exists on some of the cams in images presented on these forums over the years - my Jeep would sit.

On one hand, it shouldn't matter as any metal or wear bits resulting from the damage should be filtered out and only clean oil moving through the engine.

Yes, but............ the oil filter is only good for so many microns, plus, oil filters do have a bypass system. If the filter gets plugged (from debris - or a combination of debris and heavy oil on a cold start) the oil filter is pushed aside and oil is allowed to bypass the filter. The idea being that some oil is better than no oil, and shredding an oil filter isn't any good in itself.
Oil filters have bypass valves.

Debris from the front cam journal, should that one wear, can travel to the phaser and chain tensioner via the channel cut in the head to allow oil to go to multiple locations from that point.

Debris from the other cam journals should simply wash out of the journal area and drop back into the oil pan/sump where it will be picked up and collected in the oil pump. Cool, now you have debris from the cam lobes, followers, whatever, down in the sump and being pulled up into that complex dual displacement oil pump with that pivoting vane which could get stuck in low volume mode leaving you with reduced oil volume/flow and lower pressure at higher speeds.

I'd be torn, but I usually lean toward "let it sit" when there's stuff floating around that shouldn't be. I'd also opt for, once it was "fixed", insisting they do a full oil change right after they replace the parts and before they even start it, and then 100-200 miles later, doing another oil/filter change.

Do you think there is any value in dropping the pan and cleaning it out? Just like removing diff covers for the same reason.??

Does anyone know if the engine pan gasket is reusable?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

That head is for a "Classic" Pentastar, without Variable Valve Lift. There is a third oil passage in the VVL Pentastar heads. It is possible to have VVL issues without any problems in the Variable Valve Timing system. Oil gallery plugs can be loose or missing on any of the three passages in the head. I always check for the plugs and make sure they are tight.

Yes, correct, you can tell even just by the followers being all roller for all valves, not just exhaust.
The solenoids that control oil flow to the lash adjusters to either shove the follower lock pin back to unlock the high lift portion and put it in low lift mode. That's another channel that leads to that portion of the intake-only lash adjusters.
The oil for that comes from the main oil supply so any problem with oiling in general will impact the 2-stage follower, keeping it in high lift mode. It's oil pressure that puts the follower into low lift mode unlocking the center section. Loss of pressure allows the lock pin to be pushed out by the spring and lock the follower into high lift mode.
There are 4 VVL solenoids, one each end of the head with the front ones being mounted in the valve covers and controlling only the front cylinder on that bank.

If there was pressure loss to impact oiling to the cam journals, I'd expect the valves to be in constant low lift mode because it takes pressure to keep the followers in high lift mode.

Right what could bleed off nearly all head pressure? I'd like to see the other bank. Hard to imagine only one head lost oil supply. Hard to imagine only heads lost pressure. Whats the bottom end looks like?

Possible if there were an oil gallery restriction on that side (not so likely with modern production methods) or if a gallery plug was loose. Like in years past, the oil galleries are drilled and then plugged on the end. Not sure what types of plugs are used today, but it used to be pipe plugs and it was EXTREMELY rare if you saw one missing or loose. It just didn't happen back then.
Very possible for the top end to lack adequate oil but the bottom end be ok - not ideal, but ok, not impacted.

Frankly if something like this happened to mine - I'd be pulling the pan and cleaning stuff out. Maybe even more than once.

When I rebuild engines - =
I'm a stickler for clean internal parts. I keep a bag of 24" long stainless steel white pipe cleaners in my shop. I pressure wash all oil galleries when I rebuild an engine and I run pipe cleaners through until they come out white. I remove all pipe plugs and run through every oil gallery, bar none.

Like I said somewhere else here- when my 73's 360 got flooded by a 5"/hour rain, I changed oil 3 times in that thing. I ran sticks with cloth tied to the end down into the oil fill tube and I didn't stop with that engine until that came back with 0 signs of any water.
I scrape out differential housings after pulling the cover and literally clean out the bottom of the housing until it comes out totally clean, using lint-free shop rags.
Over-kill? Perhaps - but I've never had a come-back.

 

[pbrevo64]

I'd be interested in what oil was used, the viscosity, age/miles and so on, as well.

I can add some info here. First four oil changes were under the Jeep Wave, and all oil changes since were done when the oil change percentage reached 5% (Going forward I will be performing them every 5k). Oil used after the Jeep wave changes expired has been Pennzoil premium full synthetic 0W-20, and Mopar filters. Build date of April 2019, so just turned four (I bought it in July of 2019). Currently has 67,800 miles, I started noticing the tick around 67,250.

I had two previous oil issues, at 28,600 I brought it in for an oil leak, they replaced a core plug on the cylinder block under warranty. Brought it in again at 59,300 for another oil consumption/leak, as it was 1.5qt low at an oil change. The dealership replaced all four cam actuator seals, both valve cover gaskets, PCV, and oil filter adaptor under warranty.

After replacing the rockers, lash adjusters and bank 1 intake cam, it ran fine for a day, but then started misfiring and throwing lean codes. But that is a different discussion for a different place, as I don't want to derail this thread.

 

[seven30]

That head is for a "Classic" Pentastar, without Variable Valve Lift. There is a third oil passage in the VVL Pentastar heads. It is possible to have VVL issues without any problems in the Variable Valve Timing system. Oil gallery plugs can be loose or missing on any of the three passages in the head. I always check for the plugs and make sure they are tight.

I wonder if oiling issues are at the heart of most of the cam/lifter issues.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I wonder if oiling issues are at the heart of most of the cam/lifter issues.

Doubtful because the earlier ones that were fixed simply had cam, followers, perhaps lash adjusters replaced. Heads stayed on. Nothing else done and they've been fine.
If it was oiling - we'd see repeats left and right.

 

[Charles 236]

I wonder if oiling issues are at the heart of most of the cam/lifter issues.

No signs of oiling issues on the ones I have had apart (I have lost count of how many I have worked on in the dealership). I have said before and still believe that there are issues in the hardening of the intake camshafts. If it was a design flaw it would affect all of the Pentastar upgrade engines. I have seen failure of the low lift lobes on these engines as well, but it is incredibly rare. I have installed the coils and sensors on the old Pentastar engines and run them without the valve covers, and there is a great amount of oil being sprayed around. One of these days I may do that on a Pentastar upgrade engine just to see how much oil is pumped to the head for lubrication.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

No signs of oiling issues on the ones I have had apart (I have lost count of how many I have worked on in the dealership). I have said before and still believe that there are issues in the hardening of the intake camshafts. If it was a design flaw it would affect all of the Pentastar upgrade engines. I have seen failure of the low lift lobes on these engines as well, but it is incredibly rare. I have installed the coils and sensors on the old Pentastar engines and run them without the valve covers, and there is a great amount of oil being sprayed around. One of these days I may do that on a Pentastar upgrade engine just to see how much oil is pumped to the head for lubrication.

My bet is "plenty". As long as the parts are kept wet, that's all that is needed. Even if only spray to the point of some run-off, that's plenty. They only need to keep a film of wet oil between the parts, and enough to get into the bearing area of the low lift rollers, and the valve stem area for added cooling.

The lash adjusters for the current rev of the 3.6 intakes of course has a second entry point for control of the 2-stage follower, but there has to be a lot of volume up there.

This would be more like the exhaust lash adjuster -

Looks like the exhaust lash adjuster sprays both directions - is that correct?

 

[Charles 236]

The exhaust rocker has an opening for oiling the exhaust cam, but on the right bank engine rotation slings oil toward the intake camshaft. Also, oil is delivered to the intake camshaft through the intake rockers. So there is actually plenty of lubrication, at least in theory, for the intake rockers on that side.

The left head doesn't have so much oil slinging from the exhaust camshaft onto the intake camshaft. But it seems to get enough oil through the intake rockers to keep it well lubed.

What makes this odd to me is that I have put in at least ten right intake camshafts for every left intake camshaft I have replaced.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

The exhaust rocker has an opening for oiling the exhaust cam, but on the right bank engine rotation slings oil toward the intake camshaft. Also, oil is delivered to the intake camshaft through the intake rockers. So there is actually plenty of lubrication, at least in theory, for the intake rockers on that side.

The left head doesn't have so much oil slinging from the exhaust camshaft onto the intake camshaft. But it seems to get enough oil through the intake rockers to keep it well lubed.

What makes this odd to me is that I have put in at least ten right intake camshafts for every left intake camshaft I have replaced.

And the reports mirror what you said - as well as documentation on replacement and so on. Right side it easily 10 to 1, if not more, over the left.

If anyone thinks that oil flung from a shaft isn't adequate, isn't going far, isn't very high volume, here's the bottom of the intake gasket from my 70 Javelin - those spots are where oil flung up from the camshaft several inches below hit it. This piece sits well above the block casting, the cam is below the block.

 

[Charles 236]

Just remembered that the last left intake camshaft I replaced was not for wear. The engine ran perfectly smooth until revved above 1800-2000rpm, then wouldn't run smoothly even at idle. I checked the timing in WiTech and found that the left intake camshaft was reported as being about 60 degrees out of time. I checked the phaser and verified that the cam was in time, yet the cam sensor read a 60 degree difference. When I checked the tone wheels on the left side, I found that the intake camshaft tone wheels had slipped and created the difference. Since the tone wheels are pressed on, I had to change the camshaft to correct the discrepancy. It was a shame that the tone wheel couldn't be put back in it's correct position, that camshaft was otherwise perfect. The right intake camshaft on that same engine had four out of six intake high lift lobes ground round.

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