Delete push button start, go back to keyed ignition? The rfid brick has to go...

  1. OP
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    Jt-wrx

    Jt-wrx Well-Known Member

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    And further to that ramble...when we allow others to have access to operating that machine via thin air(satellite or ability to shut down via radio frequency) etc. then in my mind the ownership of operating that vehicle has been lost. Now you have anyone can connect to you via satellite hack or radio frequency and shut you down at 80mph on freeway, or shut down hundreds or thousands of people? A keyed ignition(read mechanical connection from operator/owner) and would sure simplify things, we had it right from the beginning, now we've gone and facked it all up. Combined with this...the appropriate abilities for the actual task at hand...piloting 2 ton machines at speed through public space, we take this far too lightly now. It's not a right, earn the privilege. When you get behind the wheel, be equipped to do so, max engagement and skills appropriate. Prius drivers...you listening? Not a chance lol.

    I digress...all this because of that damn fob, way to go FCA. ;)
     
  2. busstees

    busstees Well-Known Member

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    I don't get what you're saying about rights vs. privilege . Last I checked we still need a license to drive that requires passing a test. It does not require a test to be a passenger though which is what automated vehicles would provide. They'd be no different than busses other than the fact that only a few people would fit in each one and they could take you directly to your destination rather than a bus stop. As for someone hacking into everyone at once I think you may be watching too many movies or listening to too much Alex Jones. If someone wanted to shut down cars an EMP would knock out even the cars with key fobs....unless you drive a really old car with zero electrical components. You've gone from talking about a simple keyless pushbutton all the way to doomsday scenarios.

    Also, I have a 420hp car that is manual transmission. You'd think people in high powered sports cars would be fully focused at all times, but trust me, it's just as easy to get distracted in those as well. We're humans. We make mistakes.
     
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  3. OP
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    Jt-wrx

    Jt-wrx Well-Known Member

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    #78 Jan 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
    If that's how they are marketed and used then right on, some company will own them, like uber, miniature automated public transit or more likely private transit initially, either way...the corporation's insurance, liability and ownership, whew!

    I was thinking people might be buying these automated cars themselves and owning them, while someone else operates them. I can chill now Mr. Anderson, emp...that IS from the movies, red pill or blue pill? You said it not me. ;)

    We're far enough down the slippery slope that we've already lost sight of what operating motor vehicles actually is and requires. To the point in fixing it we have to go full circle and take the control away from the majority who have no interest in becoming proficient enough at it to think about the rest of the people on the road and drive accordingly. We need to build in as much safety net as possible now, lane departure, blind spot monitoring (easy fix with some stick on convex mirrors lol...cheap af, dead reliable but just another classic example of our helplessness)....Actually lets dig into that...it's a perfect example of what i'm talking about here...blind spot monitoring. Really? The mechanical solution we've had forever(and all professional drivers use...bus, transport trucks etc.) requires no electronics, no radar, no nothing to break down or malfunction, not even by emp. ;) A simple convex mirror, to relieve having to shoulder check, safer driving. But no...lets put bells whistles beepers radars everywhere and bubble wrap too, for everything because no one wants to realize they are piloting 2 tons of death potential through public spaces. We humans are frightening af. The fact that we need to do all this IS the problem...as i said, if everyone had to pass the same tests i did, half the people currently driving wouldn't have a license, and or, there would be a whole bunch of them determined enough to gain the actual skills to participate at the levels they should and appropriate for the task, win or learn. Earned privilege federally granted ...not a god given right, serious stuff we've trivialized to no end. Get good enough or get there another way. Rolling hazards to everyone. Make their incompetence everyone's problem? Not right, not fair either.

    Yes we make mistakes, and now because of how trivial driving has become and the false sense of security we keep trying to add to the vehicles to try and compensate for our laziness and unwillingness to treat it properly(distracted driving etc.), it's infinitely worse. Distracted driving is the new norm. Let's keep trying to make it easier and safer through vehicles and tech and it will just keep increasing the amount of distracted driving through complacency and trivialization of reality...never mind address the real problem...us, the driver with the license. We want less engagement in something that requires more engagement than most things in life, and for good reason.

    As long as this movement to autonomous driving is simply a modern form of public/private transport i'm all for it. But like guns, don't try and take it away from those of us who engage and treat appropriately. Should be hunky dory world soon lol. With enough computer driven rides running around the cops will be able to catch all those prius drivers and yank those licenses no problem as they will have even more options to get around than the bus, taxi, bike or foot. One can dream.
     
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  4. Slapping_Rabbits

    Slapping_Rabbits Well-Known Member

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    Wow there's a lot here. The good thing is these self driving cars will have a manual mode and even though the car is driving you are supposed to be paying attention and take over if need be. I do agree that driving a manual makes you more engaged. Kids really should have those. It would keep them off their phones damnit. I also agree that people keep moving towards more comfort and I find that in my life more comfort makes me more complacent. I don't like it, but it seems like most people do and will pay for it so good luck fighting that progress.
    Part of the problem is we let ourselves get to this point where you need a car. Very few places exist in the US where you can be completely car free. This isn't western europe where there are trains everywhere and heated bike paths for the winter commuters. Look at the fight that ensued a few years back when they wanted to build trains all over the place and all these states said no. Although I've heard family members complain that the younger generation doesn't want cars and dealing with all that and I actually think this is a good thing and when those people get into office maybe we'll get some legitimate options for those who don't want to or can't or just shouldn't be driving.
    Also we have these much larger issues. The large number of car accidents with horrible injuries and fatalities that people don't perceive as a real risk. It is probably easier to take the human element out of the equation rather than find a way to make people less complacent. Then there is the pollution and other anthropogenic climate issues. I was reading some time ago about the large amount of deaths they can now attribute to air pollution. Its staggering and disturbing. If we can get these vehicles to go electric and have the electricity made in a cleaner way and have better batteries that aren't reliant on rare compounds mined out of places with terrible human rights problems, then maybe things will be better.
     
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  5. ShadowsPapa

    ShadowsPapa Well-Known Member

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    >>The mechanical solution we've had forever(and all professional drivers use...bus, transport trucks etc.) requires no electronics, no radar, no nothing to break down or malfunction,<<

    I laughed when I read that part - you obviously don't know modern buses or OTR trucks............
    Have you SEEN some of the technology of the last decades to hit semi tractors and city buses?
    We had people killed and injured by city bus drivers here - the result was to incorporate some of the technology used on buses in other cities.
    Guess what - several years, no injuries, no deaths. Amazing.

    In some places, the semi drivers have GPS driven large screens that help them see all around the truck - and know where the road is in front of them.

    Some folks were just born in the wrong century - good luck going backwards.
    The modern world is GLOBAL. So much of this comes from the EU and other places - majority desires and rules.
    Hate it all you want, rant about it all you want - you'll never change it, you'll exhaust yourself and make your whole like miserable and full of hate about what's going on.
    Choose your battles wisely - at least those you have a bit of a chance at winning.
    You could go live in Cuba, Nigeria, or some socialist non-modern country.
    The whole world is no longer ruled by the rules of Darwin - it's no longer survival of the fittest - it's survival of all, sometimes at the expense of the most fit. On the other hand - would you deny a person who is otherwise brilliant, useful, a great person, the ability to enjoy like as you do because of a single handicap or disability?
    That's in a way what's being hinted at - the perfect here have decided that those who have anything less than perfect don't deserve to enjoy the same things.

    I'd love for a couple of folks to live with EDS, ADHD, birth defects of the limbs, missing an eye due to a pistol whipping and mugging, or perhaps a birth condition, back or neck issues due to a life of HARD WORK, etc. even for just a week. But I doubt it would change perception of the rest of humanity for some.
    The perfect seem to wish the imperfect to be held back and prevented from having a full life.
    What some folks are suggesting is that many of the people I've known, worked with, lived with, and so on, be denied use of a vehicle, or even a job.
     
  6. OP
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    Jt-wrx

    Jt-wrx Well-Known Member

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    50/50 there post to post, as i said, half the people will not like my big picture views, i'm all for safety. I'm also for accountability and proficiency, right tool for the job type stuff too, very elemental big picture stuff. I'm sure we both have valid points and lets not go down the road of making assumptions about each other, i'm not making assumptions about people, i understand us very well, you don't know my life and i don't know yours, i've had a long blue collar field career and nearly lost an eye at one point within it, just one example, i speak fluent adhd and a few other things at psychologist levels too, one or two stories in my novel. Well aware we all have stories, we all have novels, some more fortunate than others. Doesn't eliminate facts or realities. The requirements of pilots to fly us around are appropriate and well tested/regulated. We don't seem to apply the appropriate conditions to self piloting 2 ton machines. I'd say more people die in one state on the roads in one year than all flights combined globally...just a point, no idea actual stats. Agree we need solutions beyond buses/train/cabs/ubers for those that shouldn't be piloting vehicles, and there are far too many of those with fobs to 2 ton missiles as it is. ;)

    Adding an auto-pilot button to personal vehicles is a bad idea, will be tough to convince me otherwise. Give people the choice to transportation options more suited to their ability then yup and associate that cost appropriately...i'm all for that! You wouldn't want me running the software programming for nasa, wrong tool for the job, but proficient at piloting 2 ton rigs through public spaces at appropriate levels for the actual task at hand, you bet. Are you saying that 100% of the people with driving licenses right now earned them and still qualified to have them? It sure isn't what i see on the road everyday, this has nothing to do with being perfect btw, don't take my comments as personal attack. I'm sure you can find plenty of examples of wrong tools for the job in everyday life, i'm just pointing out how many have drivers licenses lol. Some day i won't be able to pass the tests and i'll probably have a pretty good idea when it's time to take myself off the road before that time anyhow, and use the alternatives. Accountability is a struggle for more than not. Here's a thought, so how do you buy a vehicle with an auto-pilot button if you can't be a qualified proficient driver without it? So how many people will do the bare minimum to pass a drivers test at the easiest (pay your way through) places people can find just so they can get their own car and then to use auto pilot most of the time and thank god they would...but when they have to drive then what? We are all at risk, big risk. Anyway, as long as they keep things separate should be good system. Can't drive you don't get a car, you ride the corporations smaller more personable auto pilot cars...but combining the two systems is not a good idea at all. We just ask for trouble, create more problems when we don't need to, to fix things we never needed to fix in the first place. Get the right tools for the right jobs.

    Aside from solving those issues, i'd like to have a key fob smaller than a pound of butter, and one that doesn't randomly attach to my vehicle by thin air with no physical home, no mechanical link to a very mechanical vehicle driven, by a persons very mechanical actions.
     
  7. ShadowsPapa

    ShadowsPapa Well-Known Member

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    #82 Jan 23, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
    Here's the whole bottom line -
    This thread was started and based on mistaken impressions, reading or assumptions.
    One is that others - many others, believe as you do that this is extremely risky, and that we are all at risk of having our vehicles stolen more easily due to the push button start and FOB.
    Another is that other people prefer physical keys you insert because you have to remember them - that's laughable in several ways - for me, it's experience seeing other people lose the key, forget keys, lock keys in vehicles, have keys COPIED by people like me. (it doesn't take any real complex tools or even skills do copy a key) The exceptions are those like GM uses with the "chip" in them that must also be in the lock.
    OR that keys are better for whatever reason. If that was the case then Ford would not have many years ago gone keyless for locks and ignition, It was studies, market studies, psychology (which I am a follower of since HS psychology classes)

    You base the whole thing on mistakes or YOUR personal feelings or views of these systems. You are a very small minority in this.
    You forget the many thousands who struggle with keys - getting them inserted into an ignition switch in an awkward place, or for other reasons (my wife HATES KEYS. She'd do away with any key you have to insert in a heartbeat if she could)
    I've been involved with people with disabilities for decades, vets, accident victims and others - and have had to modify quite a few vehicles to accomodate people who struggle with keys or it's on the WRONG side, yet they can push a button with ease - and can operate heavy equipment safely.
    Buttons are natural - they are everywhere.

    You are attempting to project your view of how things work, your hate of the technology, your preference for a physical key, onto the world, or at least the industry.
    When did Ford and others first move to this sort of thing? It wasn't pushed on us - it was asked for and what the majority want, the makers must provide or not sell vehicles.

    As much as I dislike much that Apple has done, I know the company and I know that what they do and how they do it is based on extreme research based on real people. They create products not that they want us to use, but that we've told them we want them to make.
    As much as I hate to admit it - I'm an outlier there - same for you with vehicle technology, but you can't seem to accept that most people like, want and appreciate this technology and it's actually better for most, and more people have issues with and dislike keys than you would want to believe.

    I've been involved in security for years -first at Compressor Controls - building, and network - yes, building.
    Then at On With Life - I was the head of, among multiple other things, buildings and grounds, safety and SECURITY.
    Oh the hate of keys, the hate to have to remember another code or have another KEY with them. Key to this or that - the times I found things left open or unlocked that by law had to be locked and/or closed and locked.
    It was a real struggle to get professional people - nurses, doctors, therapists and others, to deal with KEYS and codes.

    Then at Principal - again, security, mostly IT, etc. - but as a very trusted employee (especially to the head of security there after I almost refused her entry to a restricted area - I didn't know her at the time) I had keys to the wiring closets, server spaces and other places. The number of times the doors were blocked open because people - professionals most of the , didn't want to deal with keys. People, including electricians and network people, hated them.
    Fast forward to the state - security - yeah, IT - but also I had access to places almost no other person had access to (a time or two I had to let my boss into some rooms) again - doors blocked open, things left unlocked.
    State cars not secured, digital recording devices left on the seats, notebooks, phones, lost, misplaced...... they hated keys.
    The receptionist almost every week had a set of keys at her desk people dropped, left somewhere.......

    So keys are better?
    Maybe for SOME, or a few, but obviously not the majority.

    Otherwise you'd have dozens jumping in to support you and join in with 'me too'

    Your fears about the technology are based only on proof of concept, nothing more. Anyone can break into and steal pretty much anything if the desire is there and the benefit is big enough for them.
    If they want to cause you trouble, they'll simply drive by with a baseball bat and bust out your windows or shoot at the windshield with a pellet gun. Ignore so much of what is out there about how easily hacked things are.

    Otherwise you're never going to want to leave home or drive and park anywhere but in your own garage, with a doberman sitting next to the truck and shotguns set as boobytraps and will need some little pills to relax.

    Might as well give it a rest - no one is really bothered by the technology.
    Your phone or computer or house is far more likely to be broken into.
    No one is going to be convinced or converted to the hate side of the technology.
    If they are convinced that easily, sorry, but they are gullible.
     
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  8. Slapping_Rabbits

    Slapping_Rabbits Well-Known Member

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    Hey i looked into what you said about bus technology over the years and wow i really learned something. I thought it had improved only slightly, but i had no idea. Its pretty great. Europe has really done some cool things with their bus systems. In they future they have some big plans for the buses too. It will be really interesting to see how that works out. I always liked the idea of a good bus system, but whereever i lived they always took 2 to 3 times as long as just bicycling there so it was rare that I took them. Hopefully that improves.
     
  9. ShadowsPapa

    ShadowsPapa Well-Known Member

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    People in this country resist public transportation, don't like choices and freedom taken away from 'em. But other countries rely on it, want it, expect it, prefer it.
    Take a visit to one of those other countries, go to Korea and check out their public transportation system - from trains to subways to buses - they are leaders. It's easy, it's cheap.
    Stupid to drive to Seoul when you can take the train.
    For all of the congestion over there, there are few accidents. People obey traffic laws - it's their society, their way. You do what's right.
    People here drive aggressively to beat out the other guy, to get one car length ahead - there, it's not that way - looks like it, but there's no intent. When you slip in, it's because you must - and others will let you in and out. Unlike here where people will prevent you from passing, there's no road rage or aggression sort of thing over there.
    Anyway, their buses, trains, subways - state of the art. Safe as heck. You can go anywhere any time of day or night and feel safe. The systems are pretty easy to use (uh, if you read Korean that is - but there's some English over there, too)
     
  10. busstees

    busstees Well-Known Member

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    Yep. Easy, cheap and saves you a good chunk of money in car payments, maintenance, gas, and insurance each month.
     
  11. ShadowsPapa

    ShadowsPapa Well-Known Member

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    When my son first moved over there to teach, he didn't have a car - said there was no need (not to mention the expense, parking, etc.)
    Then when he got married they did end up buying a clunker from his wife's sister, but didn't drive it a lot.
    Now they do have a decent car over there, but she owns and operates two schools and his work had him going back and forth and all around a lot. But they still use public transportation a lot.
     
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  12. maxpower220

    maxpower220 Well-Known Member

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    So, has any attempted a conversion?


    Sorry to try to get on topic.
     
  13. OP
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    Jt-wrx

    Jt-wrx Well-Known Member

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    Some great info there. So can’t work keys but drive a two ton missile down our streets is no prob? Good to hear other places have it figured out, sounds like we’re behind. The other places have provided enough options for those with no interest or qualifications to drive and those left know what their doing. We should follow that, more public transit, more trains etc. Not a bunch of half transit half private cars. We’re already struggling clearly with not enough options for those who shouldn’t drive lol. Adding an auto button will not be a good idea. It either needs to be 100 auto or 100 manual driven by competent driver. You give both in same vehicle you must demand the driver be 100 capable manual and good luck with that.

    As for topic, I’ll attack this part of my build when I do the stereo alarm stuff, have the ajt fob to get me by till then. My build on instagram 2020_jt_yyc
     
  14. ShadowsPapa

    ShadowsPapa Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever heard of HANDICAPPED people who have an issue with a hand or hands but can likely drive better than you?
    Tell some of our vets that you believe they are not capable of driving if they can't easily manipulate a key into an ignition switch.
    I still don't get you equating a key to abilities or intelligence or memory or being able to handle a vehicle.
    Chances are I've driven more complex items than you'll occupy - but my right hand does have issues with trying to manipulate a key these days. (and yeah, I can run a 400hp race car down a track just fine)
    You seem to believe all people are or should be exactly the same and all have the same manual abilities- - and equate that with the ability to drive. If you can't handle a key you shouldn't be driving? Really? Wow.
    Glad to know there are perfect people, but sad to see that perfect people believe others who deal better with the electronics are somehow inferior. And yes, that IS what you are saying. And it's insulting.
    Good thing my wife can't read what you are saying otherwise she'd want to have a nice little chat - she's one who was born with a handicap and can't manipulate keys like my Chevy had - weird angle on the right side, and yet she'll drive circles around you - many miles, NO accidents, no tickets, VERY safe driver, but because God blessed her with fewer than the normal digits on each hand and an abbreviated right arm, she can't reach the ignition switch to insert a key easily. She LOVES the push button, loves the aids, and I'd bet money she's the safer, better driver.
     
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    Jt-wrx

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    #90 Jan 26, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
    I knew you were dangling a carrot there, and chose the suss out what I thought might be coming. Perhaps you’re trying to go down a different angle, trying to discredit what I’m saying a different way?

    I can imagine that there are probably other aids and modifications vehicles would need to adapt for needs like these, well over and above a button start. Will have to assume for discussion purposes that these needs weren’t being discussed. So a nice benefit in that case.✌️

    So, just picked up latest Car & Driver magazine showing a gladiator and c8 on cover with title “10 best vehicles of the year”. Page 16 has winners and losers, one of the losers was autonomy. “In the U.S., more pedestrians and cyclists died in 2018 than in any year since 1990...” it goes on to to a AAA study, pedestrian detection systems failings. Anyway there’s more but they seem to feel as I and many do. Nothing beats being an alert present engaged driver. One who recognizes they are piloting two tons of death potential, and further to that, that they are sharing the roads with others doing the same! That second point seems long lost in the training of half the drivers I see today, not looking out for everyone else, just assume the road is theirs and they just have to ignore everyone and everything else.

    I have no doubt that you and your wife drive alert, engaged, and with a clear understanding of what sharing the road means.

    Adding all this autonomy to personal vehicles knowing the nature of us is just a bad oversight. All or nothing, in between is going to show(is showing) exactly what I’m talking about.
     
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