Disappearing Coolant

[ShadowsPapa]

@BornCDN had 2 engine oil samples sent to FINNING for analysis and both are very telling that the internals are wearing at extreme levels.

Those of us with sound engines, please look at your own reports, compare and comment. I’m only going to highlight the metals.

The mileage ON THE OIL in both reports are:
Odometer 117344k km (73k miles)
-(1st sample) 4806k km (2986 miles) oil changed.

Odometer 121200k km (75k miles) oil not changed.
-(2nd sample) 3856k km (2400k miles)

-IRON 114, 56 (this should be around 15)
-CHROMIUM 12, 7 (should be 0.4)!!!
-ALUMINUM 20, 11 (should be 1)
-COPPER 6, 3 (should be 0.8 - 1)

Both analysis reports show glycol volume in the oil sample:
(1) .0017 (2) .0066

How was the sample taken? From the top through the dipstick tube, or opening the drain and taking the first bits that come out?
The first is good, the latter is not a good place to take a sample. If taking a sample out the bottom, let the oil run out a bit first. Never take the first oil that comes out. That will almost always show a much higher concentration of bad stuff than it what is in the oil in general.

Pros take it from the top or let the oil run out a bit to not catch what's in the bottom of the pan. The first first oil out and the very last oil out are not when to take a sample according to experts at places who do their own testing.

Chromium can be from rings, used in the hardening of gears and so on, but check the coolant being used as SOME coolants can contain sodium chromate as an additive.

I can't say if copper is used as a backing layer in the bearings in these engines or not - it used to be, but then these bearings are not like the bearings of 20 years ago.

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[Maximus Gladius]

How was the sample taken? From the top through the dipstick tube, or opening the drain and taking the first bits that come out?
The first is good, the latter is not a good place to take a sample. If taking a sample out the bottom, let the oil run out a bit first. Never take the first oil that comes out. That will almost always show a much higher concentration of bad stuff than it what is in the oil in general.

Pros take it from the top or let the oil run out a bit to not catch what's in the bottom of the pan. The first first oil out and the very last oil out are not when to take a sample according to experts at places who do their own testing.

Chromium can be from rings, used in the hardening of gears and so on, but check the coolant being used as SOME coolants can contain sodium chromate as an additive.

I can't say if copper is used as a backing layer in the bearings in these engines or not - it used to be, but then these bearings are not like the bearings of 20 years ago.

I know the first sample and oil change was done by the tech at the dealership. Not sure who or how second sample was taken.

The intention of the samples was to capture the first oils coming out to capture the highest concentration of coolant. @BornCDN mentioned the engine was consuming so I instructed to have the first oil captured. I can’t be certain when the tech captured the first one nor when the second one was done.

The FINNING lab tech commented “ELEVATED SODIUM AND POTASSIUM MAY BE RESIDUALS FROM COMBUSTED COOLANT ENTERING THROUGH THE CYLINDERS.”

We can know for sure the vehicle had run for some time on the first oil change because truck was driven there, it would have gone to their parking lot to wait then driven to the lift, right? So the sample was well mixed when the plug was pulled.

The second sample, I suggested pulling the plug in the morning when the coolant would have been the most concentrated at the plug. (I can’t say for sure if that was done)

 

[ShadowsPapa]

From experts who do this for a living -

Every resource I can find that is from people who either do the testing or who are in the business of maintaining equipment say the same -
Hot sample - run it, mix things up, hot oil
always through the dipstick tube
not from the bottom of the pan with cool oil.
You do not want that concentration because things settle to the bottom and can skew the numbers making things look a lot worse than they are.
the bottom of the pan is an accumulation of things over time - not what's in the oil currently.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

From experts who do this for a living -

Every resource I can find that is from people who either do the testing or who are in the business of maintaining equipment say the same -
Hot sample - run it, mix things up, hot oil
always through the dipstick tube
not from the bottom of the pan with cool oil.
You do not want that concentration because things settle to the bottom and can skew the numbers making things look a lot worse than they are.
the bottom of the pan is an accumulation of things over time - not what's in the oil currently.

Yes, this is correct. I’ve always done mine maybe 15-30 min after engine is shut down.

We know the first sample, the engine was running, oil well mixed and driven on to the lift at the dealership. Glycol volume in that sample reads .0017.

The second sample focus was to capture MAX concentration of coolant which would have fallen to the plug. That’s what is needed and the glycol volume reads .0066.

Now all that’s needed is a clear read on how much coolant is being consumed from having to repeatedly fill the bottle.

 

[RaleighRubicon]

Dealership just notified me of low coolant. 37k Miles, of course.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Dealership just notified me of low coolant. 37k Miles, of course.

That leaves a lot to be interpreted. Low coolant as in it's just now after 37,000 miles low enough to add? If that's the case, no big deal. If you can go 37K without adding and only have to add after that, it's extremely well sealed. Normal to lose some in the normal court of things since they DO vent now and then.

If it was low before, topped off, and it's low again now, that's different.
But if it's needing coolant now, say to the tune of 8 ounces and this is the first time - It's hard to say you have a "problem". I've added coolant at less miles than that and accepted that now and then you need to add coolant because if the pressure reaches about 16 psi and it vents that pressure, you lose a a bit of coolant in the process. Do that every so often and pretty soon it gets low.

This is why I put a tiny black mark on the coolant tank on mine after a couple of drives and letting it cool off. (about 100 miles). That way I can track the coolant levels over time. So far, mine has 13,000 miles and I did add some shortly after getting the truck as it wasn't up to where I normally keep it, but it's stayed there since then give or take 1/16" from that dot.

I added about 8 ounces to my 2020 inside of 27,000 miles. It was a tad low, not worrisome, but I wanted to keep it in the middle before a long trip. That's not bad - 8 ounces in 27,000 miles, totally normal.

 

[RaleighRubicon]

That leaves a lot to be interpreted. Low coolant as in it's just now after 37,000 miles low enough to add? If that's the case, no big deal. If you can go 37K without adding and only have to add after that, it's extremely well sealed. Normal to lose some in the normal court of things since they DO vent now and then.

If it was low before, topped off, and it's low again now, that's different.
But if it's needing coolant now, say to the tune of 8 ounces and this is the first time - It's hard to say you have a "problem". I've added coolant at less miles than that and accepted that now and then you need to add coolant because if the pressure reaches about 16 psi and it vents that pressure, you lose a a bit of coolant in the process. Do that every so often and pretty soon it gets low.

This is why I put a tiny black mark on the coolant tank on mine after a couple of drives and letting it cool off. (about 100 miles). That way I can track the coolant levels over time. So far, mine has 13,000 miles and I did add some shortly after getting the truck as it wasn't up to where I normally keep it, but it's stayed there since then give or take 1/16" from that dot.

I added about 8 ounces to my 2020 inside of 27,000 miles. It was a tad low, not worrisome, but I wanted to keep it in the middle before a long trip. That's not bad - 8 ounces in 27,000 miles, totally normal.

I took it in to the dealership for an oil change today and they mentioned low coolant and low power steering fluid. They wanted $200 to diagnose the low coolant, which I declined until I had a chance to do some research on the forums. I’ll read through this thread again when I get home to see where I need to start investigating. Or would I be better served to have the dealer investigate?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I took it in to the dealership for an oil change today and they mentioned low coolant and low power steering fluid. They wanted $200 to diagnose the low coolant, which I declined until I had a chance to do some research on the forums. I’ll read through this thread again when I get home to see where I need to start investigating. Or would I be better served to have the dealer investigate?

Oil Sample - Blackstone labs.
That will tell you if it's going into the combustion chambers or crankcase (or should tell you)

Depending on who has checked the coolant and when, maybe it was low last time and it's just a tiny bit lower this time and someone else caught it and it's a non-issue, but it's worthwhile, IMO, to get an oil sample sent in.
They will send you a sample kit for free - you can pull oil out the dipstick tube to save making a mess out the drain plug. But drive it a while with the new oil otherwise it will simply show up as good clean oil - give it time to contaminate the oil IF it's going to.

Engine is drivetrain warranty and should be covered to 60K miles............
Tempting to remind them of that.

Coolant loss can also be an external leak - hose, thermostat housing, radiator, cooled EGR and so on so if it was mine I'd not get really worried yet - but would be looking for clues.
A pressure test is one thing that's easily done.
Some here have had EGR leak coolant, some have had hoses, some radiator, so a coolant loss isn't always engine - it's just one of a list of possible places it can go. And coolant can be lost without leaving a puddle on the ground.

 

[RaleighRubicon]

Oil Sample - Blackstone labs.
That will tell you if it's going into the combustion chambers or crankcase (or should tell you)

Depending on who has checked the coolant and when, maybe it was low last time and it's just a tiny bit lower this time and someone else caught it and it's a non-issue, but it's worthwhile, IMO, to get an oil sample sent in.
They will send you a sample kit for free - you can pull oil out the dipstick tube to save making a mess out the drain plug. But drive it a while with the new oil otherwise it will simply show up as good clean oil - give it time to contaminate the oil IF it's going to.

Engine is drivetrain warranty and should be covered to 60K miles............
Tempting to remind them of that.

Coolant loss can also be an external leak - hose, thermostat housing, radiator, cooled EGR and so on so if it was mine I'd not get really worried yet - but would be looking for clues.
A pressure test is one thing that's easily done.
Some here have had EGR leak coolant, some have had hoses, some radiator, so a coolant loss isn't always engine - it's just one of a list of possible places it can go. And coolant can be lost without leaving a puddle on the ground.

Thank you for your response, knowledge, and advice. I tend to jump to the worst-case scanario in my head. I will order an oil test kit like you mentioned. Is 500 miles on this fresh oil enough to see if the oil is contaminated?

 

[RaleighRubicon]

Oil Sample - Blackstone labs.
That will tell you if it's going into the combustion chambers or crankcase (or should tell you)

Depending on who has checked the coolant and when, maybe it was low last time and it's just a tiny bit lower this time and someone else caught it and it's a non-issue, but it's worthwhile, IMO, to get an oil sample sent in.
They will send you a sample kit for free - you can pull oil out the dipstick tube to save making a mess out the drain plug. But drive it a while with the new oil otherwise it will simply show up as good clean oil - give it time to contaminate the oil IF it's going to.

Engine is drivetrain warranty and should be covered to 60K miles............
Tempting to remind them of that.

Coolant loss can also be an external leak - hose, thermostat housing, radiator, cooled EGR and so on so if it was mine I'd not get really worried yet - but would be looking for clues.
A pressure test is one thing that's easily done.
Some here have had EGR leak coolant, some have had hoses, some radiator, so a coolant loss isn't always engine - it's just one of a list of possible places it can go. And coolant can be lost without leaving a puddle on the ground.

Should I go ahead and add some coolant in the meantime? (I read your note earlier on OAT vs HOAT coolant.)

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Should I go ahead and add some coolant in the meantime? (I read your note earlier on OAT vs HOAT coolant.)

I would keep that topped up.

 

[RaleighRubicon]

Topped it to the max last night. The coolant level was still at max this morning when cold. I ran a few errands today. Here is where the coolant level is afterward. What is going on with the fluid holding at the top of the reservoir?

 

[Vtur]

Topped it to the max last night. The coolant level was still at max this morning when cold. I ran a few errands today. Here is where the coolant level is afterward. What is going on with the fluid holding at the top of the reservoir?

That's normal. Unlike vehicles with the radiator cap, that tank is kinda like part of the radiator if you will. The closed thermostat air locked that hose. Lower coolant level will release it.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

That's normal. Unlike vehicles with the radiator cap, that tank is kinda like part of the radiator if you will. The closed thermostat air locked that hose. Lower coolant level will release it.

Yeah, what Vtur said. It's a semi-closed system. As the coolant expands in the cooling system it's pushed into this tank. As the system is cooled after a shut-down, the coolant contracts a bit and coolant pulled back from this tank - sort of a vacuum or siphon situtation.
100% normal.

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