Ford Losing Billions on EV’s

[ZoMojave]

I can smell a ban coming.

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[Rusty PW]

They really just need to fix charging infrastructure and charging speed. It’s better than ICE in every other way. I was not on board until I rented a Tesla during my Canadian vacation. The fucking torque is just nuts. Can’t even explain it in words.

I was pretty skeptical but hell, now I’m hoping they release a 4xe Gladiator. I’m tellin ya, EVs will be the norm in this country 20 years from now whether we like it or not. EVs can be a huge win for the domestic natural gas industry which is another plus. It wouldn’t surprise me to see major energy companies like CenterPoint, Duke Energy, and PG&E lobby for it as a matter of fact.

The ethics of its resources are another story though.

Edit: I couldn’t care less about the environmental effects. Not because I don’t care about the environment (I do), but because I know there’s no such thing as “clean energy” in the way we consume it.

I retired from a Duke Energy natural gas power plant that was sold to Dynergy as a senior control room operator.

 

[TroutFishingInAmerica]

But how about we stop throwing stones…it’s getting the already derailed thread nowhere

@Gren71 you wrote the most intelligent here.

 

[dcmdon]

Electric automobiles have been under a certain level of development since the 80's, maybe earlier. Here's an interesting article about GM's Silver Volt that ran on lead acid batteries. The article helps to illustrate how much progress has been made over the past 40 years.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1117716_the-first-volt-from-gm-was-also-a-plug-in-hybrid-but-it-was-built-in-1980#:~:text=Chevrolet's Volt wasn't the,years before the GM EV1.

No real significant progress towards a practical BEV was really made until Tesla came on the scene. If it weren't for Tesla, BEVs would still be "in the future" for better or for worse.

In my not at all humble opinion, given the current state of the art and the status of most charging infrastructure, the electric vehicle sweet spot is currently PHEVs. (Plug-in hybrid Electric Vehicles)

If you are lazy, you just fill it up like any other car and it runs like a regular car. Except it's quicker and gets better fuel economy. If you feel like plugging it in at nigh, then great. It's even quicker if you run it as a hybrid, or you can run it in EV mode and get between 25 and 70 miles of electric range. Plenty for most commutes.

The other great thing about PHEVS is their appeal in a SHTF scenario. Since they can run on only gas, only electric, or any combination of the two. If you have solar on your house, you can literally run indefinitely provided the EV range meets your needs.

 

[Lunentucker]

I can smell a ban coming.

Know your quarry better than it knows itself.

 

[dcmdon]

They really just need to fix charging infrastructure and charging speed. It’s better than ICE in every other way. I was not on board until I rented a Tesla during my Canadian vacation. The fucking torque is just nuts. Can’t even explain it in words.

I was pretty skeptical but hell, now I’m hoping they release a 4xe Gladiator. I’m tellin ya, EVs will be the norm in this country 20 years from now whether we like it or not. EVs can be a huge win for the domestic natural gas industry which is another plus. It wouldn’t surprise me to see major energy companies like CenterPoint, Duke Energy, and PG&E lobby for it as a matter of fact.

The ethics of its resources are another story though.

Edit: I couldn’t care less about the environmental effects. Not because I don’t care about the environment (I do), but because I know there’s no such thing as “clean energy” in the way we consume it.

This is the holy crap moment. Ha. I drove a neighbor to the airport In his Tesla Model S long range, not even the hot rod version, and after I dropped it off I floored it.

All the stuff in the center console flew back and ended up in the rear seat. ha.

When I got home, I researched it. 800 hp. 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. Quarter mile in 11.3.

And this is NOT the performance version.

BEVs just drive better. Period.

But like I've said before, for many people, they aren't ready for prime time. Long trips are unpredictable and generally more trouble than they should be. So if you need to put in 500 mile days on ar regular basis. Or don't have another car for trips, it's less than ideal.

If you have a garage to charge in overnight, a BEV is actually more convenient because you won't ever have to go to a gas station in day to day use.

As far as an all around vehicle for use that includes long trips, it's not that the range isn't enough. Most BEVs have more range than our Glasiators.

The problem is that
1) charging infrastructure isn't reliable enough and there isn't enough of them
2) charging time is too long.

When you can pull off an exit and expect to find a charger just like you can expect to find a gas station and the charger works and can bring you from 20% to 80% charge in 5 minutes, then there won't be anything stopping any one from buying a BEV. Except for maybe nostalgia.

Right now, BEVs with huge range numbers are just trying to put a bandaid on the real problem which is charging infrastructure and charge time.

 

[PlayfulBird]

anything stopping any one from buying a BEV

Except that there won't be enough resources to build that infrastructure, a few minutes super high capacity charge will be a huge problem for batteries and the grid, and there won't be the resource for all of the people buying the EVs.
Eventually private ownership and operation of vehicle will be a luxury

 

[AustinL911]

Except that there won't be enough resources to build that infrastructure, a few minutes super high capacity charge will be a huge problem for batteries and the grid, and there won't be the resource for all of the people buying the EVs.
Eventually private ownership and operation of vehicle will be a luxury

I have to laugh every morning I come to work (hospital). I park in the garage with about 600 other cars. There are 5 EV charging spots. There are waaaay more than 5 EVs in the garage. So, I've watched as this cold war has developed amongst the owners as they battle it out everyday for a spot. Its lead to certain combatants showing up earlier and earlier everyday in an attempt to beat out others to secure a spot. Then, as I walk by them on the way into work, they're ALL sitting in their cars, playing on their phones, killing time before their start time, because they got there so much earlier than they needed to.

Then, on top of that, those same 5 cars will be parked in those same spots ALL day, thereby preventing anyone else from charging.

The EV infrastructure is still a joke. Until damn near every spot has a charger, it's not a feasible option, IMO. And I can't even imagine the power input needed to charge 300+ EVs in a parking garage if this is indeed the plan for the future.

 

[Hootbro]

The whole EV discussion is leaving out the ripple effect of the secondary used car market and those who rely on that for having the means to purchase a vehicle.

Currently, EV's seem to average about a 7-10 year battery life before replacement is needed. Those on the secondary used market cannot afford that expense and the ICE vehicles that still will be made and coming into the secondary market will be fewer and priced higher due to demand for them.

It is going to make the divide between the haves and have nots that much more discernible. It is another byproduct of the govt. pushing the implementation at a unnatural artificial rate vs. letting the market actually drive the change that would give more time for these issues to sort themselves out.

 

[PlayfulBird]

The EV infrastructure is still a joke. Until damn near every spot has a charger, it's not a feasible option, IMO. And I can't even imagine the power input needed to charge 300+ EVs in a parking garage if this is indeed the plan for the future.

Imagine the electrical fire that would happen if only one catches.

 

[Rusty PW]

I have to laugh every morning I come to work (hospital). I park in the garage with about 600 other cars. There are 5 EV charging spots. There are waaaay more than 5 EVs in the garage. So, I've watched as this cold war has developed amongst the owners as they battle it out everyday for a spot. Its lead to certain combatants showing up earlier and earlier everyday in an attempt to beat out others to secure a spot. Then, as I walk by them on the way into work, they're ALL sitting in their cars, playing on their phones, killing time before their start time, because they got there so much earlier than they needed to.

Then, on top of that, those same 5 cars will be parked in those same spots ALL day, thereby preventing anyone else from charging.

The EV infrastructure is still a joke. Until damn near every spot has a charger, it's not a feasible option, IMO. And I can't even imagine the power input needed to charge 300+ EVs in a parking garage if this is indeed the plan for the future.

And playing the asshole who comes in late. Walks past the 5 EV's plugged in. And unplugs them.

 

[Rusty PW]

The whole EV discussion is leaving out the ripple effect of the secondary used car market and those who rely on that for having the means to purchase a vehicle.

Currently, EV's seem to average about a 7-10 year battery life before replacement is needed. Those on the secondary used market cannot afford that expense and the ICE vehicles that still will be made and coming into the secondary market will be fewer and priced higher due to demand for them.

It is going to make the divide between the haves and have nots that much more discernible. It is another byproduct of the govt. pushing the implementation at a unnatural artificial rate vs. letting the market actually drive the change that would give more time for these issues to sort themselves out.

How many people making $40,000 or less can afford an EV? Even a used one. Plus the future cost of a battery replacement.

 

[Hootbro]

How many people making $40,000 or less can afford an EV? Even a used one. Plus the future cost of a battery replacement.

Not many if at all.

I just did a cursory comparison using AutoTrader in my area to compare a 10 year old (2013) Tesla Model S and Toyota Camry with lets say 100K miles:

The average cost for the used Tesla Model S was $23K. Then you have to factor in that it may need a new battery at a cost of $13K. That is $36K invested to have it go maybe another 10+ years.

The average cost for a used Toyota Camry was in the $12-$13K range with an ICE engine if properly maintained, has another 200K miles left in it.

As EV adoption rates increase, there is less adjusted used car buyers value in ICE used vehicles when those supplies are constrained.

On the flip side, EV batter tech has to constantly evolved to give the ever increasing range demands that buyers are going to want. That bleeding edge tech will continue to make EV costs for both the vehicle and battery replacement very high for the foreseeable future in my opinion.

 

[redriderjf87]

Hah. The country bumpinks have been warning about "societal degeneration" since the civil rights movement.

Jimbo and Buck know that. They don't like it because they can't control it and it ain't a bout them, it's about others. But Jimbo and Buck are scared and afraid and lashing out. They like to 'other' others.

So, you haven't addressed your emotional bias yet. It sounds like you're angry or lashing out.

I've never seen free thinking populists have the conversation you made up, and have never seen them "lash out" to control others (I see many on the opposite spectrum do that).

Not sure who you're talking about.

 

[dcmdon]

How many people making $40,000 or less can afford an EV? Even a used one. Plus the future cost of a battery replacement.

None.

Just like none of them can afford a Gladiator.

If you make $40k/yr, you are buying a $10k car. Or at least that's what you SHOULD be buying. Most likely something like a Civic or a Corolla. You can get a decent reliable one of them for $10k.

Don't be like my idiot neighbor. He doesn't make much money and insists on buying a new-to-him used full sized pickup truck for in the area of 10k every couple of years. I swear he spends more on his vehicles than I do because he is constantly having it fixed and then after something huge fails he throws it away. Idiot.

I keep telling him to find a 100k mile Corola, suck up his redneck pride and save some money for his family. But no.

Sorry, I digress.

Older teslas are all old $100k cars. Nobody on a limited income should buy a 10 year old 100k mile car. It's just stupid. Though another friend bought his mom a 10 year old 100k mile Benz for his mom. She drives 3000 miles per year and can honestly afford a major repair. Though it's highly unlikely considering the miles she drives.

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