Pappa Sally USMC
Member
- First Name
- Robert
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2021
- Threads
- 0
- Messages
- 10
- Reaction score
- 35
- Location
- Palmer, Alaska
- Vehicle(s)
- 2020 Jeep Gladiator Rubicon
- Occupation
- Military Engineer
Let me preface this dissertation with the recommendation of reading the (90's) English Government study on driver habits with modern vehicles equipped with ABS. Short answer is vehicle crashes did not go down with the introduction of ABS. People simply drove more aggressively, with the believe that ABS would compensate. Same holds true for today's vehicles with Traction Control Systems (TSC) and Vehicle Stability Control (VCS).
For what it is worth, I live in Palmer, Alaska in the Matanuska-Susitna Borough (aka "Southcentral" bounded by Pacific Ocean to south-west, Arctic Interior to north and Harding Ice field to the east). Our weather changes hourly, and alternates between sub-zero temps as low as -35F (-33C) with light, fluffy snow (over ice), to near 32F (0 C) and freezing rain (over ice). Once winter sets in (for 7 months), our few paved roads more resemble hockey rinks (and yes we do play pond hockey on real skates in the street). The majority of the rest of our roads are frozen. compacted gravel and mud (icy in winter, mud slick in fall/spring and dusty in summer). Today we have sunny, -5F and 50 MPH winds gusting to 70 that are polishing the 2-3 inches of clear water ice on the roads and causing concrete hard snow drifts. I mention this, because I also own a 2020 JT. Mine is a Rubicon with auto stick, front and rear axle E-lockers, and all the driver assist/safety features on un-studded 33 inch M/Ts. I use the JTR to pick up large items. Otherwise I drive a stripped down, slightly lifted '96 Cherokee XJ with manual tranny, Detroit Locker rear (permanently engaged locker) and Trac-Loc Limited Slip front on 10 year old 31 inch un-studded A/Ts. Because I am old school (I am 58 and started driving officially at 14 on a farm license), I drive the Glad 99.8% of the time in 2WD, with all driver safety assistance features (VSC, TCS, etc except for ABS) turned off. I have had too many bad experiences with modern VSC/TCS systems not reacting in time or over-reacting and causing loss of steering input, PUTTING me in a ditch (VSC/TCS controls wheel spin through use of braking system, which when one wheel starts to lose grip and VSC/TCS activates, it can have a cascade affect on the grip loss of all other tires, causing ABS to activate, which then fights with VSC/TCS until you suddenly find yourself in the opposite lane or in a ditch). And YES, driver habits do contribute. So I run with these systems turned off, so I can get better road and vehicle dynamics feedback; thus modulating driving style accordingly. That means I need to back-off on my enthusiasm sometimes, as my throttle response and/or loss of tire grip exceeds conditions. If I have issues with wheel spin starting out at intersections or in parking lots, I either use light left foot brake (poor man's traction control) or switch 4-Hi on/off on the fly. It is old school habits, because I have to do the same thing in my Cherokee, since it has ZERO driver assist features (not even ABS) and was built for desert/rock-crawling which is the worst setup for Arctic/Sub-Arctic. As a sidenote, I also own a 2019 Toyota Tundra 4WD with E-Locker axles, and a 2021 RAV4 TRD. Great vehicles except for Toy's version of VSC/TCS. Unlike my Rubicon Glad which you can completely shut-down VSC/TCS without being in 4WD, in the Toys, you can only shut them off temporarily. Once vehicle (or wheel spin) hits 25 MPH, computer automatically overrides driver preference and re-engages these systems. That means computer will stop spinning wheels, just at the speed necessary to clear the treads of mud and snow. And yes, I can more completely turn these systems off with the Tundra, but that means engaging the axle lockers, which means vastly reduced steering control on city streets (I am sure this site has threads on why Lockers good for rock-crawling, but bad for snowy streets).
For what it is worth, I live in Palmer, Alaska in the Matanuska-Susitna Borough (aka "Southcentral" bounded by Pacific Ocean to south-west, Arctic Interior to north and Harding Ice field to the east). Our weather changes hourly, and alternates between sub-zero temps as low as -35F (-33C) with light, fluffy snow (over ice), to near 32F (0 C) and freezing rain (over ice). Once winter sets in (for 7 months), our few paved roads more resemble hockey rinks (and yes we do play pond hockey on real skates in the street). The majority of the rest of our roads are frozen. compacted gravel and mud (icy in winter, mud slick in fall/spring and dusty in summer). Today we have sunny, -5F and 50 MPH winds gusting to 70 that are polishing the 2-3 inches of clear water ice on the roads and causing concrete hard snow drifts. I mention this, because I also own a 2020 JT. Mine is a Rubicon with auto stick, front and rear axle E-lockers, and all the driver assist/safety features on un-studded 33 inch M/Ts. I use the JTR to pick up large items. Otherwise I drive a stripped down, slightly lifted '96 Cherokee XJ with manual tranny, Detroit Locker rear (permanently engaged locker) and Trac-Loc Limited Slip front on 10 year old 31 inch un-studded A/Ts. Because I am old school (I am 58 and started driving officially at 14 on a farm license), I drive the Glad 99.8% of the time in 2WD, with all driver safety assistance features (VSC, TCS, etc except for ABS) turned off. I have had too many bad experiences with modern VSC/TCS systems not reacting in time or over-reacting and causing loss of steering input, PUTTING me in a ditch (VSC/TCS controls wheel spin through use of braking system, which when one wheel starts to lose grip and VSC/TCS activates, it can have a cascade affect on the grip loss of all other tires, causing ABS to activate, which then fights with VSC/TCS until you suddenly find yourself in the opposite lane or in a ditch). And YES, driver habits do contribute. So I run with these systems turned off, so I can get better road and vehicle dynamics feedback; thus modulating driving style accordingly. That means I need to back-off on my enthusiasm sometimes, as my throttle response and/or loss of tire grip exceeds conditions. If I have issues with wheel spin starting out at intersections or in parking lots, I either use light left foot brake (poor man's traction control) or switch 4-Hi on/off on the fly. It is old school habits, because I have to do the same thing in my Cherokee, since it has ZERO driver assist features (not even ABS) and was built for desert/rock-crawling which is the worst setup for Arctic/Sub-Arctic. As a sidenote, I also own a 2019 Toyota Tundra 4WD with E-Locker axles, and a 2021 RAV4 TRD. Great vehicles except for Toy's version of VSC/TCS. Unlike my Rubicon Glad which you can completely shut-down VSC/TCS without being in 4WD, in the Toys, you can only shut them off temporarily. Once vehicle (or wheel spin) hits 25 MPH, computer automatically overrides driver preference and re-engages these systems. That means computer will stop spinning wheels, just at the speed necessary to clear the treads of mud and snow. And yes, I can more completely turn these systems off with the Tundra, but that means engaging the axle lockers, which means vastly reduced steering control on city streets (I am sure this site has threads on why Lockers good for rock-crawling, but bad for snowy streets).
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