Loose Steering?

[JET_83]

Maybe yours have, but it's not a solid axle thing and there's no reason for them to.
Not if camber and caster are set correctly and the split is correct and the correct direction.

If that was the case, every Grand Cherokee prior to the WK2 platform would pull. And they just didn't. We never had any pull on any of our Grand Cherokees. Even the one I had until last year with over 128,000 miles on it would track straight down the road.
There's no science behind the solid axle pulling and the IFS not. Not if the factory jigs set things correctly.
It's likely the Wrangler is a different situation because of its purpose.

When I look at the angles on mine I can see why it would lead to the right when in the right lane - but you can't adjust camper and caster split is also welded in.

It's not the axle design, it's the angles, caster split, camber and camber difference left to right, and other angles that most don't check or don't know how to check, and that can't be changed on these, or even most vehicles (but are more easily controlled on IFS)

ZJ, WJ, both solid axle, no pull or lead to the side.

My Mojave does with all of that set correctly and still can’t figure out what the culprit is

Sponsored

 

[ShadowsPapa]

The pull definitely isn’t normal nor just a Jeep thing either and it can be corrected

Not necessarily. Not if it's due to camber, or caster split. You can't change camber - not without replacing parts.
If there is a camber difference, it will lead or pull to the side with more camber. So if the left is - 1/2 and the right is - 1/4 it can pull to the right.
Similar for caster - if there is a difference, it will lead to the side with least caster. So if there's 5 on the left and 4.5 on the right, it will lead or pull right.
A pull can also be caused by uneven power assist - valving bad, etc. so faulty steering gear can cause it, steering gear that is adjusted too tight can cause it (so be careful changing that over-center adjustment)

It's not normal, but it's not always easily corrected, or even corrected at all without parts swapping. You can't change camber, and caster split is set on these by welds.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

My Mojave does with all of that set correctly and still can’t figure out what the culprit is

Possibly steering gear. The original TSB even mentioned "pull" as a possible complaint and reason to replace the steering gear. Uneven assist, valving issues in the gear, etc.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I'm particularly speaking about pulling away from the grade on a road and different tires and tread patterns will do it more than others. A M/T will grab ahold of a groove in the road and pull you with it compared to a regular street tire or A/T. It's also does it worse on Solid axle vehicles compared to IFS vehicles. On level smooth road it should drive straight as a arrow though. All I'm saying is some misinterpreted vehicles pulling with them getting into grooves on a particular road, not saying that it's the case with all, but a lot can be corrected with different tires and some don't understand that.

Yeah, that's not a pull at all.
That's tramlining.
Over-inflating tires, wide tires, tires with straight tread and grooves, tires with a low sidewall profile, do it worse.

 

[JET_83]

Possibly steering gear. The original TSB even mentioned "pull" as a possible complaint and reason to replace the steering gear. Uneven assist, valving issues in the gear, etc.

I had that replaced, bud, still no fix

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I had that replaced, bud, still no fix

Mine was replaced twice.
Looking at my alignment specs, I can see why mine may want to lead to the right when in the right lane, caster off just a tad. Camber is perfectly equal, though.
But our roads all have quite a crown except for some of the newer interstates. They want snow melt, ice, rain, and whatever, to move off to the side of the road fast, so there's a lot of crown here.

 

[Oneshotlucky]

The M151 was a Ford, it was fully independent suspension front and rear. My Dad has stories about about several medevacs he did in Germany for severe rollover injuries from the crappy suspension in McNamara's "jeep". NOTHING to do with solid axle JL's or JT's, or any other real Jeep.

I stand corrected! Thanks. Still was all over the place tho! But it did go places a Billy Goat could!

 

[Lunentucker]

It's somewhat entertaining to see all of the various excuses offered up for bad handling in these threads. My old Tacoma didn't wander, wobble, drift, crab, or anything else. Nor does any other vehicle I own or have owned.
I had a 1976 Scottsdale stepside that was lifted 4 inches and had 36 inch mudders on it, and I could drive that solid axle vehicle down the highway, crown and all, with one hand, and it would stay where it was pointed. Ditto for a nearly worn our and rusted out 72 Blazer. I did tighten the steering gearbox on that one a tad to remove the slack.

I don't get why we're making excuses and accepting a very widespread and well documented issue on $50-$60-$70,000 brand new vehicles, and buying expensive aftermarket things to try to make them driveable.
Apparently Jeep gets some right, so it's doable.
THEY need to figure out what's right on those and what's wrong on the others, and offer up some real solutions.

@JeepCares - care to weigh in with something other than, "Take it to your dealer and listen to them tell you there's nothing wrong."?

 

[JET_83]

Mine was replaced twice.
Looking at my alignment specs, I can see why mine may want to lead to the right when in the right lane, caster off just a tad. Camber is perfectly equal, though.
But our roads all have quite a crown except for some of the newer interstates. They want snow melt, ice, rain, and whatever, to move off to the side of the road fast, so there's a lot of crown here.

If everything is within spec on mine, why couldn’t anything that’s been tried fix it?

 

[JET_83]

It's somewhat entertaining to see all of the various excuses offered up for bad handling in these threads. My old Tacoma didn't wander, wobble, drift, crab, or anything else. Nor does any other vehicle I own or have owned.
I had a 1976 Scottsdale stepside that was lifted 4 inches and had 36 inch mudders on it, and I could drive that solid axle vehicle down the highway, crown and all, with one hand, and it would stay where it was pointed. Ditto for a nearly worn our and rusted out 72 Blazer. I did tighten the steering gearbox on that one a tad to remove the slack.

I don't get why we're making excuses and accepting a very widespread and well documented issue on $50-$60-$70,000 brand new vehicles, and buying expensive aftermarket things to try to make them driveable.
Apparently Jeep gets some right, so it's doable.
THEY need to figure out what's right on those and what's wrong on the others, and offer up some real solutions.

@JeepCares - care to weigh in with something other than, "Take it to your dealer and listen to them tell you there's nothing wrong."?

?? that’s no joke, that’s what they always say, just take it to the dealer and we’ll follow up and repeat the cycle.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

It's somewhat entertaining to see all of the various excuses offered up for bad handling in these threads. My old Tacoma didn't wander, wobble, drift, crab, or anything else. Nor does any other vehicle I own or have owned.
I had a 1976 Scottsdale stepside that was lifted 4 inches and had 36 inch mudders on it, and I could drive that solid axle vehicle down the highway, crown and all, with one hand, and it would stay where it was pointed. Ditto for a nearly worn our and rusted out 72 Blazer. I did tighten the steering gearbox on that one a tad to remove the slack.

I don't get why we're making excuses and accepting a very widespread and well documented issue on $50-$60-$70,000 brand new vehicles, and buying expensive aftermarket things to try to make them driveable.
Apparently Jeep gets some right, so it's doable.
THEY need to figure out what's right on those and what's wrong on the others, and offer up some real solutions.

@JeepCares - care to weigh in with something other than, "Take it to your dealer and listen to them tell you there's nothing wrong."?

LOL - really, Jeepcares? All they can do is coordinate service, get people together, and send info to the correct teams. They can't - and won't comment on something they don't even know about. They are first level help desk type that don't have any tech info or even access to same.

It's widespread and documented on the web, that's where people with sick things gather to complain to each other. but the majority, and I mean majority, have no issues. The internet makes it look like it's widespread and if you buy a Jeep you WILL experience this and that's just not the case.
They get most right, some are the exception.
My brother has constantly owned Jeeps since the CJ7 and 8 - and he's not had a year without a Jeep in his garage for the last couple of decades, he's had no problem.
Mine doesn't wander, it's not sloppy. It's not a quick ratio, it's not rack and pinion, but when I move that wheel, the truck responds with a yes, sir.

I'd bet that if you compare the steering linkage and other aspects of the front end of your old Chevy to Wrangler and Gladiator, you'd see some differences.

As far as Blazers, I've worked on enough of those to know your experience was not always typical. Didn't take a lot to make them loose on the highway. (we had to test drive every vehicle we worked on, that means I test drove many hundreds of vehicles of all types, sizes and ages) They used to be really common around here.

You are gathering in grief support groups and wondering why every person is so sad.

I've had mine doing 90 on the interstate, all the way from Ames to home I was doing in the 80s while my wife yelled faster, faster, get around those guys - so we could outrun a record storm. and that was with winds 50-70 mph in our area, signs, barricades, parts of trees were blowing over the road and all around us. True as an arrow (or guided missile? ) Never felt loose, or dangerous, or risky (other than the risk of being blown off the road like was happening to some)
So, either I and my brother are the luckiest people alive, or, the internet is skewing reality because no one goes to every Jeep site ever known and tells everyone how great their Jeep handles, but let one thing go wrong, and we all know about it.

The NHTSA has some complaints, but given the sheer numbers of Jeeps out there, I'd expect a whole lot more complaints if it was a given that you'd get a bad one, or even if it was a better than 50% chance you'd get a bad one.

Oddly enough, I've experienced that wobble and other steering instability issues with my F250 - but not Jeeps. So I guess all Fords have a big problem.

One thing to keep in mind - make mods, change wheels, - set them out farther, change tire size/diameter, and you've changed the engineering, the angles, the way things work together to keep things stable.

"But I did it to my Chevy and it was fine". Yeah, many do it to their Jeeps and are fine, too, doesn't mean much, really.

I guess it's time to post the stuff from the engineers again.........

 

[ShadowsPapa]

If everything is within spec on mine, why couldn’t anything that’s been tried fix it?

I can't answer that without seeing said current settings (and a list of all things changed, done, looked at).
Being in spec doesn't mean a lot if there's a split that's wrong or one side or the other is closer to the edge of spec than the other side.
I spent an entire quarter in college in steering, suspension and brakes - there's more to it than a single "do this and it will fix it" or one thing fixes all - or even many. Stackup of tolerances, other factors.

If it was easy, I'd have been through all of my automotive training, HS, college and OJT, in a matter of weeks, not years. And to this day, I still find need to refer to something in my service bulletins and TSMs or other references.
The trouble is, most shops don't take that time, if it's not on that laminated flow chart card, they get lost, or are told don't spend more time on it.

 

[dos0711]

Someone mentioned(can't remember where I saw it) that increasing the toe in a tiny amount improved the wander problem. Seems like that would just wear the tires badly.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Someone mentioned(can't remember where I saw it) that increasing the toe in a tiny amount improved the wander problem. Seems like that would just wear the tires badly.

Too much toe is bad. It's not a fix for anything.
It toe is correct, then adding to it is simply masking things the person making the change doesn't understand. Too many DIYers with bad advice out there.
If there's not enough toe, then yes, making it CORRECT can help with stability - but if it's in specs, then they are only throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.


From tirerack -
Excessive toe settings often bring with them drivability problems, especially during heavy rain. This is because the daily pounding of tractor trailers on many highways leave ruts that fill with water. Since excessive toe means that each tire is pointed in a direction other than straight ahead, when the vehicle encounters a puddle that causes only one tire to lose some of its grip, the other tire's toe setting will push (excessive toe-in) or pull (excessive toe-out) the vehicle to the side. This may make the vehicle feel unsettled and very "nervous."

If there isn't enough toe-in -
Increasing toe-in will typically result in reduced oversteer, help steady the car and enhance high-speed stability. Increased toe-out will typically result in reduced understeer.

Too much toe wears tires and causes nervous steering on roads with wet or slick surfaces and causes increased tramlining. If one wheel loses traction a little bit, the one that retains traction will be aimed not straight ahead so will try to take the vehicle to the side. If the other front wheel loses traction, then it will want to go the other direction, so in cases where one front wheel loses traction, then the other and back and forth, it can make the thing real squirrelly as neither wheel is actually pointed ahead and when one loses traction, the one that still has traction will want to guide the truck to the opposite side. .
Ideally, once moving, the wheels are nearly straight ahead due to the drag.
Too much also means you lose toe-out on turns, which is necessary because the outer wheel swing or turns a much wider arc than the inner wheel on a turn. You lose cornering stability and increase tire wear and scrub.

There's no new fix, no one has discovered any new great, gee why hasn't anyone thought of this before trick. Youtubers all believe they are the next big thing and they've got it figured out but all they have done is helped with their own issues, usually having no idea how or why, just that it feels better.

Sponsored