New 2024 grill insert experiment

[Gren71]

I ordered the new grill inserts to do a bit of a test since there is so much back and forth. Nearly all of which is absent of date.

Much like my past MPG experiment I have the same drive to and from work every day. It has mostly flat terrain with a bridge that will "tax" the engine a little (emphasize on the little)

I will update the main post with the new data as I go is its easier to see it all in once place.

Question:
+ Will the "new" plastic grill inserts make a difference with the 2020 JT grill? Positive OR Negative

Research:
-Random opinions that the inserts will/will not make a difference.

- https://racelouvers.com/content/Race-Louvers-Jeep-Wrangler-Hood-Vent-Wind-Tunnel-Data.pdf

-The last page of the above link is most interesting to me in that it specifically says "Lack of ducting or panels between the grill and front of the radiator allows air to bypass the radiator reducing cooling. Front ducting and hood extraction behind the radiator are key to maximizing cooling"
-A quick search into "automotive ducting" and I find a good bit of info regarding creating wind movement through the radiator, nut just at it. In the video below they talk about the dead space created by certain ducting setups and how it can change the airflow.



Most of the reading Ive done points to the need for a positive pressure space in front of the radiator that moves air through the radiator, and not around it. Since air moves similar to water in that it follows the path of least resistance, the grill needs to be set up to push it ito the radiator. This is created with the current JT grill set up with the foam pieces and spacers that isolate the space between the grill and the radiator its self. If it were just a matter of unregulated air flow the jeep would come without a grill entirely. Which leads me back to part of the original question, will the newer plastic grill inserts effect the JTs ability to cool?
I would like to be able to measure the airflow behind the radiator to be able to gather that as a baseline data point. But that seems to be either cost prohibitive or a metric I wont be able to gather by a reliable means.

Hypothesis:
+The inserts will make a small improvement in oil / coolant / trans temps.
+The cost / benefit will not "pan out" to be significant, if even measurable.

Experiment:
-I well drive to and from the same place during my regular work week. I will also gather data points while pulling my 6,000lbs travel trailer during the experiment to help prove or disprove any data I get.
-I will gather data from three temperatures
--Oil temp
--Trans temp
--coolant temp

-I will only gather data after the trans comes up to operating temp (185-190)
-I will record data at 3 "check points" along the route.
--The intent would be to show a more complete picture by capturing data early in the ride, in the middle, and at the end. Ultimately I intend to average the data points, but the middle CP will be a bridge and will represent the data points while "under load".

-All data gathered while towing will be separated to give a baseline for both daily driving and towing.

-Check point 2 (CP2) is the top of a bridge along my travel route. I measured the bridge recently using a MilGPS app and found it to have an increase in elevation of 40m over 0.8 miles. If I am doing the math right this gives me a grade of %3 (ish) for both the up and down slope of the bridge. Not a lot, but Im sure someone is curious about it.

Ill try to organize the data as best as possible.
Example:
Day 1 Trip 1
CP1--CT ### TT ### OT ###
CP2--CT ### TT ### OT ###
CP3--CT ### TT ### OT ###

Day 1 Trip 2
CP1--CT ### TT ### OT ###
CP2--CT ### TT ### OT ###
CP3--CT ### TT ### OT ###

Day 2 Trip 1
CP1--CT TT OT
CP2--CT TT OT
CP3--CT TT OT

control variable:
+fixed distance to and from work
+consistent RPM range (cruise control)
+no vehicle changes until experiment is over

Variables:
+Wind
-If wind is coming primarily from the north or south the days data will not be counted

+ambient temperature
-Data will be counted within the ranges of 75-85 F and 85-95f. Ill separate the data points to try and isolate high temperatures as an uncontrolled variable.

+Driving habits
-I will be using cruise control for the entire travel distance, barring unforeseen need to slow down

+road type
-I will only record data on the highway portion of my trip to try and keep this variable consistent.

+engine load
-I will record my data at two points in my travel. One during a largely flat drive, and the other at the precipice of the tallest bridge.
-I will not carrying any more than usual. If im hauling more than an additional 100lbs, that days data will not be counted.

Any anecdotal findings will be recorded as AF# and will likely be added as a finding to track. I dont exactly anticipate any significant anecdotal findings, but things like MPG are always on my mind. So I may keep an eye on that to see if there is any fluctuation I cant explain away.

Im NOT a scientist and...im sure....i probably botched some of the basic writeup. So feel free to nitpick me friends.

*+*+*My setup for those wondering*+*+*
Iron rock off road 2in spacer lift with
Core 4x4 track bars
AEV steering stabilizer
MPP front and rear sway bar ends
MPP front LCAs
Front geometry correction brackets
Rear Drive shaft drop block(can’t remember brand)
Rear bump stop extensions (axle side)
Sumo springs bump stops all around
Rear track bar bracket
Air lift bags
255/75/17 Firestone Destination AT2
Jeep JLUR 17in rims
water wetter coolant additive
FuelOx Fuel additive with every tank
FuelOx Infinity Lube engine oil additive with every oil change

TEST:
Driving
Day 1 Trip 1 76F
CP1--CT 186 TT 194 OT 197
CP2--CT 189 TT 196 OT 196
CP3--CT 188 TT 196 OT 199

Day 1 Trip 2 81f
CP1--CT 186 TT 195 OT 196
CP2--CT 188 TT 196 OT 197
CP3--CT 190 TT 196 OT 199

Day 2 Trip 1 78f
CP1--CT 188 TT 186 OT 196
CP2--CT 195 TT 196 OT 197
CP3--CT TT OT (Didnt travel to CP3)

Day 3 Trip 1 80f
CP1--CT 195 TT 199 OT 192
CP2--CT 180 TT 185 OT 186
CP3--CT 203 TT 203 OT 197
Idling-- CT 210 TT 188 OT 206
**I was sitting in the parking lot at work talking with my wife and decided to check the temps. I was surprised by the numbers at idle**

Day 4 Trip 1 75f
CP1-- CT 190 TT 192 OT 185
CP2-- CT 192 TT 195 OT 190
CP3-- CT 195 TT 195 OT 199

Day 4 Trip 2 82f
CP1-- CT 188 TT 178 OT 186
CP2-- CT 195 TT 182 OT 192
CP3-- CT 198 TT 190 OT 198

Day 5 Trip 1 72f
CP1-- CT 195 TT 179 OT 196
CP2-- CT 194 TT 185 OT 200
CP3-- CT 195 TT 187 OT 202

Towing
Trailer Towing #1
13 miles of highway
75f
65mph
CT 220 TT 204 OT 235

Trailer Towing #2
13 miles of highway
85f
65mph
CT 221 TT 205 OT 238

Trailer towing #3
30 miles
86f
CP1-- CT 221 TT 213 OT 240
CP2-- CT 218 TT 216 OT 242

Trailer Towing #4
30 miles
84f
CP1-- CT 203 TT 217 OT 217
CP2-- CT 204 TT 212 OT 210
CP3-- CT 233 TT 240 OT 235

Sponsored

 

[@californiajeeping]

This has been tested at length on the ecodiesels that a grill does not improve cooling.

doubtful any results will be seen on the gas jeeps either.

 

[ShrimpHappens]

This has been tested at length on the ecodiesels that a grill does not improve cooling.

doubtful any results will be seen on the gas jeeps either.

The word has always been that airflow for engine cooling is the limiting factor for tow rating on these Gladiators, and IIRC the issue is not getting fresh air in but getting hot air out, which aligns with this.

 

[@californiajeeping]

The word has always been that airflow for engine cooling is the limiting factor for tow rating on these Gladiators, and IIRC the issue is not getting fresh air in but getting hot air out, which aligns with this.

I have vented the hood, fender liners, and removed a bunch of foam the airflow out would not be the issue at this point.

I wish it was as easy as a grill change!

 

[JarHeadLV]

Thank you for attempting to figure out the new vs old grill debate! On my Mojave, I have a bull bar and my winch on my front bumper - which both are blocking some of the airflow to my radiator, so now I'm THINKING since the new grill is smaller in height (the airflow area to radiator is higher than my grill) it could add more cooling to my particular setup because less airflow is being blocked.

Not sure if this matters and I don't think anyone has brought this up yet, but the new grill has angled edges to (possibly) direct airflow to the radiator where the 2023 and earlier grills are completely flat. The article the OP posted I believe talks about directing air to radiator " The Jeep from the factory lacks any kind of ducting or panels between the grill and front of the radiator. These gaps allow air to go around the radiator instead of thru it significantly reducing differential pressure across the radiator and significantly reducing cooling"

Maybe the new grill is built in mind to direct more air to radiator?

 

[Gren71]

I changed the parameters of the experiment a bit.

While driving and thinking this whole thing through I wanted to eliminate the chance for a variable load on the engine during the trans warm up portion of the drive. In my mind gathering data when the trans is at operating temp ensures the engine isnt maintaining higher RPMS while using cruise control or anything unforeseen while I rely on the computer to maintain my speed. No idea if there is any validity to this thought process, but it made sense to me.

I also added a section on how I am going to gather the data using check points and an example key of how I will be listing the data.

Additionally, I put my JT next to my wife's JLU and noticed an immediate difference between the grills. The JT grill on my max tow has "black out" (my description..no idea what theyre called) panels on both outer most slots. These black out panels have a small cut out in them that looks like it directs the air flow. Specifically on the passenger side the cut out directs air into the engine air intake vent. My wifes JLU doesnt have the same panels.

Not sure if this is just part of the "max tow" package or not. Ill take some pictures later today so anyone interested can see what I am talking about. Id appreciate it if some one with a rubi / sport / mojave could take a similar snap of your OEM grills just for comparison. Im curious if there is a difference.

I also added the additives I use with links to each.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I ordered the new grill inserts to do a bit of a test since there is so much back and forth. Nearly all of which is absent of date.

Much like my past MPG experiment I have the same drive to and from work every day. It has mostly flat terrain with a bridge that will "tax" the engine a little (emphasize on the little)

I will update the main post with the new data as I go is its easier to see it all in once place.

Question:
+ Will the "new" plastic grill inserts make a difference with the 2020 JT grill? Positive OR Negative

Research:
-Random opinions that the inserts will/will not make a difference.

- https://racelouvers.com/content/Race-Louvers-Jeep-Wrangler-Hood-Vent-Wind-Tunnel-Data.pdf

-The last page of the above link is most interesting to me in that it specifically says "Lack of ducting or panels between the grill and front of the radiator allows air to bypass the radiator reducing cooling. Front ducting and hood extraction behind the radiator are key to maximizing cooling"
-A quick search into "automotive ducting" and I find a good bit of info regarding creating wind movement through the radiator, nut just at it. In the video below they talk about the dead space created by certain ducting setups and how it can change the airflow.



Most of the reading Ive done points to the need for a positive pressure space in front of the radiator that moves air through the radiator, and not around it. Since air moves similar to water in that it follows the path of least resistance, the grill needs to be set up to push it ito the radiator. This is created with the current JT grill set up with the foam pieces and spacers that isolate the space between the grill and the radiator its self. If it were just a matter of unregulated air flow the jeep would come without a grill entirely. Which leads me back to part of the original question, will the newer plastic grill inserts effect the JTs ability to cool?
I would like to be able to measure the airflow behind the radiator to be able to gather that as a baseline data point. But that seems to be either cost prohibitive or a metric I wont be able to gather by a reliable means.

Hypothesis:
+The inserts will make a small improvement in oil / coolant / trans temps.
+The cost / benefit will not "pan out" to be significant, if even measurable.

Experiment:
-I well drive to and from the same place during my regular work week. I will also gather data points while pulling my 6,000lbs travel trailer during the experiment to help prove or disprove any data I get.
-I will gather data from three temperatures
--Oil temp
--Trans temp
--coolant temp

-I will only gather data after the trans comes up to operating temp (185-190)
-I will record data at 3 "check points" along the route.
--The intent would be to show a more complete picture by capturing data early in the ride, in the middle, and at the end. Ultimately I intend to average the data points, but the middle CP will be a bridge and will represent the data points while "under load".

Ill try to organize the data as best as possible.
Example:
Day 1 Trip 1
CP1--OT ### CT ### TT ###
CP2--OT ### CT ### TT ###
CP3--OT ### CT ### TT ###

Day 1 Trip 2
CP1--OT ### CT ### TT ###
CP2--OT ### CT ### TT ###
CP3--OT ### CT ### TT ###

control variable:
+fixed distance to and from work
+consistent RPM range (cruise control)
+no vehicle changes until experiment is over

Variables:
+Wind
-If wind is coming primarily from the north or south the days data will not be counted

+ambient temperature
-Data will be counted within the ranges of 75-85 F and 85-95f. Ill separate the data points to try and isolate high temperatures as an uncontrolled variable.

+Driving habits
-I will be using cruise control for the entire travel distance, barring unforeseen need to slow down

+road type
-I will only record data on the highway portion of my trip to try and keep this variable consistent.

+engine load
-I will record my data at two points in my travel. One during a largely flat drive, and the other at the precipice of the tallest bridge.
-I will not carrying any more than usual. If im hauling more than an additional 100lbs, that days data will not be counted.

Any anecdotal findings will be recorded as AF# and will likely be added as a finding to track. I dont exactly anticipate any significant anecdotal findings, but things like MPG are always on my mind. So I may keep an eye on that to see if there is any fluctuation I cant explain away.

Im NOT a scientist and...im sure....i probably botched some of the basic writeup. So feel free to nitpick me friends.


*+*+*My setup for those wondering*+*+*
Iron rock off road 2in spacer lift with
Core 4x4 track bars
AEV steering stabilizer
MPP front and rear sway bar ends
MPP front LCAs
Front geometry correction brackets
Rear Drive shaft drop block(can’t remember brand)
Rear bump stop extensions (axle side)
Sumo springs bump stops all around
Rear track bar bracket
Air lift bags
255/75/17 Firestone Destination AT2
Jeep JLUR 17in rims
water wetter coolant additive
FuelOx Fuel additive with every tank
FuelOx Infinity Lube engine oil additive with every oil change

TEST:

Day 1 Trip 1
CP1--OT ### CT ### TT ###
CP2--OT ### CT ### TT ###
CP3--OT ### CT ### TT ###

Frankly, I can't see that you'd see any changes at all unless you actually tax that engine.
You have far more than adequate cooling ability on a drive, even on hills. It's never really "taxed" until you tow in the hills.
Your engine produces xx BTUs to accomplish a certain task.
It produces more BTUs to generate increased HP and torque for tougher tasks like towing in hills.
The cooling system is designed to keep the engine temps within normal operating perimeters while towing - it's capable of removing more BTUs of heat energy than your engine can generate unless it's really stresses. the cooling system isn't even breathing hard to keep it within those perimeters while not heavily loaded.
If the truck generates 100 while driving on hills and 150 while towing in hills, then the cooling system can remove 150+ while towing within the limits Jeep stipulates.
You'll only be generating 100 while the cooling system can remove over 150 - you won't see a difference. (numbers picked just at random for demonstration purposes only!!)
You don't even need better air flow on your daily drive - you aren't likely using even 75% of the cooling system's capacity unless you hook up a heavy trailer and hit the hills.
In other words, I can't see how you'll be doing anything as far as testing differences.

I'd bet the fan doesn't even run while on the highway without a load or on a hot day. That's the point - you have more than adequate air flow on the highway that a fan isn't needed so you save the HP of running a fan.
You'd need to see if the fan is running on a normal drive.

If you aren't using the cooling system to the max for your baseline, the changed grill won't mean a thing. You need to overheat that thing then see if the grill prevents that overheating.

 

[Minty JL]

Well I'm in for the win or support at least

 

[BAT]

Look forward to seeing your results and then will sit and watch with popcorn and drink as the fellow jeeps try to tear you apart (LOL)

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Look forward to seeing your results and then will sit and watch with popcorn and drink as the fellow jeeps try to tear you apart (LOL)

No one's tearing him apart - just being scientific about it.
If you are testing for a fix for a problem, you must generate the problem first then see if your theorized fix resolves it.
How do you know if a vaccine helps prevent a virus unless you put the person in a place with high instances of the virus?
His normal drive won't mean a thing - too many variables and the engine won't be producing BTUs the cooling system can't already remove.

so the only results that matter are with or while towing. Nothing else would matter.
Take cues from TFL - load the beast up, make it get hot, see if doing the same exact drive in the same ambient temps with the same load is improved with the other grill.
Grills can be swapped in moments and he doesn't even need to put all of the top fasteners back in. So he could do multiple tests in one day.
I'd concentrate on maxing out the towing - make it run hot.

 

[Shift Happens]

Would putting it on something like a dyno, increasing the resistance, and pushing a consistent amount of airflow into the vehicle do anything?
I don't even know if something like that exists but arbitrarily it seems that would be the most consistent way to measure to reduce external variables.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Would putting it on something like a dyno, increasing the resistance, and pushing a consistent amount of airflow into the vehicle do anything?
I don't even know if something like that exists but arbitrarily it seems that would be the most consistent way to measure to reduce external variables.

Dyno is one thing - but getting the same air flow as a trip on the highway would yield would be another. If it was other parts - maybe.
I think since he's got a max tow, already maxed out with the best alternator and fan, etc. and he can load the @#$% out of it and force it to run hot - he's in an ideal place to check out what a different grill may or may not due.
My comments are only that - on a highway drive he's not even coming close to being concerned about air flow, the fan is likely shutting off, etc. (he can use JSCAN to monitor that) and so on - he may as well skip the normal highway in the hills driving - but hey, he's doing it all and I have no doubts he'll do well.
He's a good one to be doing this, IMO. And I really hope his towing tests show at least something different. Most of us would never need such a thing, but with a diesel - hmmmmm.

 

[BAT]

No one's tearing him apart - just being scientific about it.
If you are testing for a fix for a problem, you must generate the problem first then see if your theorized fix resolves it.
How do you know if a vaccine helps prevent a virus unless you put the person in a place with high instances of the virus?
His normal drive won't mean a thing - too many variables and the engine won't be producing BTUs the cooling system can't already remove.

so the only results that matter are with or while towing. Nothing else would matter.
Take cues from TFL - load the beast up, make it get hot, see if doing the same exact drive in the same ambient temps with the same load is improved with the other grill.
Grills can be swapped in moments and he doesn't even need to put all of the top fasteners back in. So he could do multiple tests in one day.
I'd concentrate on maxing out the towing - make it run hot.

Not saying you will. Normally you have knowledge and background to advise. So my statement is just a general observation from long time on forum that there are many who are worse than old ladies fighting amongst each other when someone post some results or observations they may have come to. But that is what the forum is for and it makes for interesting reading

 

[Shift Happens]

Most of us would never need such a thing, but with a diesel - hmmmmm.

Thats what I'm most interested in....for selfish reasons since I have a diesel wrangler :P

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Not saying you will. Normally you have knowledge and background to advise. So my statement is just a general observation from long time on forum that there are many who are worse than old ladies fighting amongst each other when someone post some results or observations they may have come to. But that is what the forum is for and it makes for interesting reading

Honestly, I'm rooting for him.
So I'm hoping that this goes well. I'm hoping he shows a difference with a full load towing in heat and hills.

Pick on my 82 - with AC there are two different strips up by the radiator, without AC, those strips aren't there. Both had just a 2 row core radiator. The only good replacement I could find was a 3 row core and now I have trouble getting my car to warm up - had to put in a hotter stat and it hangs at that stat setting, never above, even in heat with the AC on.
My 70 had strips like the Jeep does - sealing the base of the hood against the radiator support top to prevent air from forcing over the top of the radiator up under the hood. Not there without AC.
There's a lot of resistance to air flow in a radiator - so directing that air and forcing it to go through the radiator is an art. Air wants to follow a surface so the shape of the grill slots will matter a lot in directing it.

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