Wandering Wheel on a Stock 2023 JT Rubicon?

[Jimko71]

It won't add so much as to be bad. Had them on my 20 and now on my 22 and definitely not too much.

I have a 2022 HA. So you think I would be ok to install them? No lift.

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[High Alextude]

I have a 2022 HA. So you think I would be ok to install them? No lift.

I have the same. Fine with no lift. But, even with a small spacer lift, I would recommend adjustables. Night and day difference, with mine at least. I put on the 1.5 Teraflex spacers with the mopar LCAs and the ride quality wasn’t ideal until I added the alpine IR LCAs. So, if you plan on lifting in the future, invest in adjustable arms - my .02 cents.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I have a 2022 HA. So you think I would be ok to install them? No lift.

I did the work on mine in stages - I added the MOPAR lower control arms to my 2020, then Rubicon springs, then spacers, and got up to about a 1" "lift" after all of the extra stuff was bolted on (winch, bumper and so on) so that truck had them with factory springs and height, and with all the stuff and other springs added. It was fine. (stock caster was on the low side of specs anyway)
For the 2022, similar - added things a bit at a time - so it's had the MOPAR longer lower control arms both with and without taller springs. And when I have the snow plow on it, it settles back to stock height if not a bit below so I can say it's fine stock height or with about 1.25" of lift on it.
If I was going over 2", I'd go adjustable, but my JTs have been fine with these. Since mine have started out on the low side of specs I'd not mind a bit if they ended up on the top end if not just out of spec on the high end of caster. I don't want "too much" as it can lead to other issues, but I can't see 0.25" of length changing that much.

I put on the 1.5 Teraflex spacers with the mopar LCAs and the ride quality wasn’t ideal until I added the alpine IR LCAs.

Control arms won't change ride quality - they only change steering/handling.
Ride will be the same as the springs and shocks control the ride (as well as the angle of the control arms leaving the axle and going back to the frame as jolts get transmitted back to the chassis - that's where brackets matter - ride quality, brake dive and so on)

 

[High Alextude]

Control arms won't change ride quality - they only change steering/handling.
Ride will be the same as the springs and shocks control the ride (as well as the angle of the control arms leaving the axle and going back to the frame as jolts get transmitted back to the chassis - that's where brackets matter - ride quality, brake dive and so on)

Ride quality and steering are the same in my mind, but sure, my mistake, the steering improved greatly, which made the driving experience much better.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Ride quality and steering are the same in my mind, but sure, my mistake, the steering improved greatly, which made the driving experience much better.

Perfect way to put it!

 

[Jimko71]

I did the work on mine in stages - I added the MOPAR lower control arms to my 2020, then Rubicon springs, then spacers, and got up to about a 1" "lift" after all of the extra stuff was bolted on (winch, bumper and so on) so that truck had them with factory springs and height, and with all the stuff and other springs added. It was fine. (stock caster was on the low side of specs anyway)
For the 2022, similar - added things a bit at a time - so it's had the MOPAR longer lower control arms both with and without taller springs. And when I have the snow plow on it, it settles back to stock height if not a bit below so I can say it's fine stock height or with about 1.25" of lift on it.
If I was going over 2", I'd go adjustable, but my JTs have been fine with these. Since mine have started out on the low side of specs I'd not mind a bit if they ended up on the top end if not just out of spec on the high end of caster. I don't want "too much" as it can lead to other issues, but I can't see 0.25" of length changing that much.


Control arms won't change ride quality - they only change steering/handling.
Ride will be the same as the springs and shocks control the ride (as well as the angle of the control arms leaving the axle and going back to the frame as jolts get transmitted back to the chassis - that's where brackets matter - ride quality, brake dive and so on)

Thank you! Looks like I have a new little project to work on now.

 

[jjdustr340]

Does your wife's JLU have any type of lift? I though adding the Mopar LCA on a non lifted JT/JL will put too much caster on it? I bought them for my JT and was told by people on this forum not to install them if I never lift the front end.

No lift, stock Willy's.
Again, before Jeep acknowledged an issue with the aluminum gear box, folks over in the JL Forum figured out the Mopar LCAs helped. Supposedly they believed the stock JL didn't have enough caster from the factory.
As Shadows mentioned, they don't add a ton of caster, but it is just enough to make a difference.

 

[RubyLu]

You changed parts. Ok. Have you even thought about checking parts first?

1. Balljoints?
2. Did you have someone get in and turn the steering wheel back and forth to make sure there is no movement in either of the track bar bolts?
3. Did you check the pitman arm nut to ensure that it is torqued to 184 ft/lbs?
4. Maybe the four steering box bolts that are torqued to 99 ft/lbs?
5. Or make sure there are no other damaged or imporperly torqued steering/suspension components?
6. Tires?

I did a video on my YT channel about my jeep swaying. It was the pitman arm nut. It was finger tight. Torqued it to 184 ft/lbs and it was good to go. I did another video where where my steering box bolts were not properly torqued. A couple were around 80, one was around 50, and I think one was down in the 30s. Different vehicle suspensions (even different JTs) react different to specific tires. When I had my Ram, I had Nittos and I couldn't control it. Switched to K03s and complete opposite.

Take a look at those before replacing more parts.

Thanks Tyson,

I was told by two Jeep dealers that all the front end torque was tightened to spec. I later checked everything visually with my wife at the wheel, before and after I added the sector shaft brace and heavy-duty track bar. I found slight play between the steel steering box and frame, and in the bow of the factory track bar. That led me to adding/changing the parts id did. I torqued these new parts according to manufacturer's instructions, then had my tire shop double check everything and mark the nuts and bolts with red paint pen 100 miles later when they were mounting our new snow tires. Nothing feels loose - it just wanders, more so at highway speeds. I have an appointment with a front-end alignment expert with 40 years of experience to check everything visually and with his alignment lasers next Wednesday. I plan on riding with him on a test drive where I know I can duplicate the wondering wheel. My best guess at this point is not enough caster. I really appreciate everyone's comments and advice here. Great forum! - Adam

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Thanks Tyson,

I was told by two Jeep dealers that all the front end torque was tightened to spec. I later checked everything visually with my wife at the wheel, before and after I added the sector shaft brace and heavy-duty track bar. I could found slight play between the steel steering box and frame, and in the bow of the factory track bar. That led me to adding/changing the parts id did. I torqued these new parts according to manufacturer's instructions, then had my tire shop double check everything and mark the nuts and bolts with red paint pen 100 miles later when they were mounting our new snow tires. Nothing feels loose - it just wanders, more so at highway speeds. I have an appointment with a front-end alignment expert with 40 years of experience to check everything visually and with his alignment lasers next Wednesday. I plan on riding with him on a test drive where I know I can duplicate the wondering wheel. My best guess at this point is not enough caster. I really appreciate everyone's comments and advice here. Great forum! - Adam

it's amazing how things can change - and go - once you have some solid information to go by.
The sad thing is that Jeep, like other vehicles, has its share of really bad info, incorrect info, etc. - and too often, it outnumbers the good information.

I think Tyson is a cool, fun guy, and has been down the road many others have been down, but he shares more fact than conjecture, first-hand stuff. I enjoy his videos. I normally dislike Youtube for facts as anyone who owns a pair of pliers can make funky videos and get attention and dazzle people, he does it the right way.
He's on my short list to meet some day.

 

[dayusmc]

OP, here is my 2 cents. As you might have already figured out with your dealings with the dealer a lot of them (not all) will send you away if they can't figure it out quickly. So then what do we do, come here so the community can help. So you are on the right track by not just accepting what the dealer said and living with it .
I would personally buy a set of metelclock or steer smarts DIY alignment plates. You can easily set toe in or toe out yourself. That way you can try different settings yourself and see the results instantly. Why cheaper and saved a lot of time in the long run.
Your Jeep no matter what model should not wonder like that from the factory. As you have said, you have been in plenty that are fine. So something is definitely wrong. Personally I would start by re torquing all the front end components. Don't take any dealers word for it unless you were in the back watching them do it. I would loosen all the control arms and bars while the Jeep is on the ground and then torque them again. Also the steering box related components.
So with everything torqued and after you check toe in yourself with the DIY plates see if there is any improvement.
If there isn't, you most likely have a bad component...
It might be a tie rod end or possibly a ball joint. But you can check all of that yourself.
Be patient, you will figure it out ... But remember, it shouldn't handle like this from the factory. So instead of throwing aftermarket parts at it first try and figure out the root cause and fix it. Then throw tons of aftermarket parts at it for fun like the rest of us.
When I leveled my last Jeep (2" in the front) the longer front LCA did help the steering a lot. They are cheap enough, so that would be one thing I would do to even a totally stock Jeep.
Just my 2 cents. Don't get discouraged, you will figure it out. There are tons of extremely knowledgeable people on here helping out, just ignore the rest...

 

[tysongladiator]

Thanks Tyson,

I was told by two Jeep dealers that all the front end torque was tightened to spec. I later checked everything visually with my wife at the wheel, before and after I added the sector shaft brace and heavy-duty track bar. I found slight play between the steel steering box and frame, and in the bow of the factory track bar. That led me to adding/changing the parts id did. I torqued these new parts according to manufacturer's instructions, then had my tire shop double check everything and mark the nuts and bolts with red paint pen 100 miles later when they were mounting our new snow tires. Nothing feels loose - it just wanders, more so at highway speeds. I have an appointment with a front-end alignment expert with 40 years of experience to check everything visually and with his alignment lasers next Wednesday. I plan on riding with him on a test drive where I know I can duplicate the wondering wheel. My best guess at this point is not enough caster. I really appreciate everyone's comments and advice here. Great forum! - Adam

I also should have noted that my pitman arm nut became loose after the dealership changed the steering box. Like yours, it should have been tightened to spec by them. But, it was not. And that also attributed to the steering box bolts not being torqued to spec as well. But, I think you are doing the right thing by taking it to a shop at this point. Where they can have their mechanics with decades of experience visually inspect every component for damage/wear. Sometimes things can be easily spotted like track bar bolt play when the steering wheel is moved and sometimes it's not.

I hope your shop gets it taken care of. I know firsthand that having it wander is not fun and aggravating as hell.

Good luck!
-Tyson

 

[tysongladiator]

it's amazing how things can change - and go - once you have some solid information to go by.
The sad thing is that Jeep, like other vehicles, has its share of really bad info, incorrect info, etc. - and too often, it outnumbers the good information.

I think Tyson is a cool, fun guy, and has been down the road many others have been down, but he shares more fact than conjecture, first-hand stuff. I enjoy his videos. I normally dislike Youtube for facts as anyone who owns a pair of pliers can make funky videos and get attention and dazzle people, he does it the right way.
He's on my short list to meet some day.

I appreciate that brother. Although I think your knowledge level far exceeds mine, I appreciate the comment.

I had someone try and check me once and call me out by asking me, "Am I a master mechanic or expert or something?" I quickly explained that I am neither. I'm just a guy that has been busting knuckles since I was a kid and have been fortunate enough to have friends that have done the same. So, any comment that I throw out there are either from my experience or from theirs. I try to constantly keep my mind in a state of learning.

And I try to keep it funny at the same times. That doesn't always work out that well though. Sometimes my wife is like, "Huh!"???

You're definitely on my short list brother. I actually want to make a trip your way for no other reason than to just say hello. And.... Summer is coming!!!?

 

[RubyLu]

Hey Friends, here's my (OP) update after having our JT checked today by Jeff, a front-end specialist with 4 decades of experience. We took turns at the wheel while looking and feeling underneath, and found no play anywhere. As I mentioned previously, I had already had the torque on all the front end components checked, even though this is a new vehicle. On the alignment rack, Jeff found the toe out of spec, with the left front wheel at 0.21" and in the right front wheel at -0.04" (alignment report attached). He straightened out the toe to 0.03"/0.04" well within the 0.80" spec, and advised we test drive. I did so and immediately noticed an improvement. The JT no longer is wandering back and fourth like a slalom skier that forces one to work to keep it in the lane! My wife says she is much more comfortable in that she does not have to keep both hands on the wheel anymore.

On a scale of zero to five stars, we bought our JT with 2-star steering. The Yeti sector shaft brace and HD track bar installation brought that up to 3-stars, and Jeff's expertise today delivered a solid 4-star steering experience. Jeff noted that although the caster is correct at the 4.5 degree factory spec, he has seen Jeeps with Dana 44 axles steer excellent with slightly more caster. I mentioned the 1/4" longer Mopar lower control arms that dayusmc mentioned earlier in this thread, and Jeff thought that might add another degree of caster, and suggested that if I want to dial this in further, maybe I could get the dealer to do them for me. Considering I had to solve this problem on a brand new Jeep myself and with your help, I think its worth pushing the dealer. What do you think?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

That tells me the steering wheel started out way off center so to go straight you had to have the steering wheel tilted a couple of degrees or so.
Toe was out for sure.
Caster is on the low side of the spec. Mine ran just fine at that caster number.
I did add the longer LCAs, but don't know where my caster sits now.


Sometimes I wonder if there's some confusion between " it won't go straight" with "steering wheel not centered when going straight".

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