Please Respond @jeepcares - Major Issue w/ 4xE Brand New

[WILDHOBO]

There is dedicated heating a cooling for the battery, the issue isn't the battery temp but the ice side of it requires certain oil temps and to be run long enough at those temps to remove gas from the oil.

Jeep will tell you to run hybrid mode in the colder temps and just let it do it's thing. It's designed/programmed to not run all electric at certain temps. This has been talked about ad nauseam on the jl 4xe forum but people really want it to work a certain way so they say there must be something wrong and won't accept that this is the way it was programmed.

The problem is that if it’s designed that way, due to a flaw in the combustion engine side of the drivetrain, it’s not advertised or documented that way. Jeep wants to surprise people with this problem after the sale. No ICE should allow gas into the oil system unless the rings are shot. Again, this is our fourth plug-in, in winter climates. We do understand how they work. This isn’t an electric issue, but an oil system issue. This is the first one with this problem. I do believe it’s a design problem they’ve tried to band-aid, but without being transparent with the buyers and owners.

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[WILDHOBO]

I was looking at the 4xe forums last week or so and saw that when it gets cold out it doesn't really use battery/electric to drive. As soon as it gets too cold it pretty much uses the ICE to get everything to a certain temp.

I see you're in CO, how cold is it there? I think the cab has to get above 60 at least and that HAS to use the ICE. Do you keep your 4xe in a garage? Heated? I've seen several people with this issue. Each instance I've heard the dealer says the same, 'it's how Jeep designed it'. Maybe it really is running the way it's supposed to, for shitty or not?

1 of the threads I saw in the 4xe forums had temps listed.

We pre start it connected to AC power for 15-30 minutes. The cabin is 70+ before we ever unplug it and drive away. It’s not a cabin temp issue.

 

[WILDHOBO]

Are you saying it won't use electric power in hybrid or just won't use the all electric mode? It's been documented and explained as working as designed that it won't use all electric in cold temps as the oil temperature needs to get up to working temps. People have found buying the cold weather grill cover helps keep the temps higher as it cools too well in the cold.

Both. Even when forced to hybrid mode, you can watch it live, and uses zero electric power. 100 percent ICE.

 

[bleda2002]

Both. Even when forced to hybrid mode, you can watch it live, and uses zero electric power. 100 percent ICE.

Sounds like the oil temp where it needs to reach a certain temp and be there for awhile to go electric first. Are you doing short quick trips?

 

[WILDHOBO]

Sounds like the oil temp where it needs to reach a certain temp and be there for awhile to go electric first. Are you doing short quick trips?

Arguing this is a trap, but I’ll respond anyway for some reason. Pure electric mode uses electric motors, hence no reason for warm oil. If the drivetrain is designed to require warm motor oil when using electric propulsion, that’s incredibly dumb. But if it is, the manual should document the fact that electric mode can’t be used below a certain temperature. Since it’s not, we have a problem. Please, if someone has first hand knowledge of this drive train, I’d love to hear your thoughts. Otherwise, trolls can go home. If anyone would like to explain my issue to me, please make sure you know as much about it as I do. People that know me, understand that I do my research. If I’m posting this to get Jeep cares involved, it’s because I already have, extensively. Please refrain from “helping”, if you’re not a Jeep 4xE EXPERT. I truly love this forum, but sometimes it can be frustrating. I reply to posts where I have knowledge that can help the OP, but try to refrain if I have nothing to add. Thanks.

 

[bleda2002]

Arguing this is a trap, but I’ll respond anyway for some reason. Pure electric mode uses electric motors, hence no reason for warm oil. If the drivetrain is designed to require warm motor oil when using electric propulsion, that’s incredibly dumb. But if it is, the manual should document the fact that electric mode can’t be used below a certain temperature. Since it’s not, we have a problem. Please, if someone has first hand knowledge of this drive train, I’d love to hear your thoughts. Otherwise, trolls can go home. If anyone would like to explain my issue to me, please make sure you know as much about it as I do. People that know me, understand that I do my research. If I’m posting this to get Jeep cares involved, it’s because I already have, extensively. Please refrain from “helping”, if you’re not a Jeep 4xE EXPERT. I truly love this forum, but sometimes it can be frustrating. I reply to posts where I have knowledge that can help the OP, but try to refrain if I have nothing to add. Thanks.

I can't say I'm a 4xe expert anymore than you are, but I do own one and have read about this “issue". I can't explain why jeep programmed the drive train to respond as it did, but these are not full electric like a Tesla.

There are 2 electric motors, 1 is connected to the transmission in place of the torque converter, the other is an accessory belt on the engine so there is a need for oil and fluids to warm up and be at a reasonable operating temp.

Does yours state fuel and oil refresh mode? Here is the post by jeep cares on the 4xe forum.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

There is dedicated heating a cooling for the battery, the issue isn't the battery temp but the ice side of it requires certain oil temps and to be run long enough at those temps to remove gas from the oil.

Jeep will tell you to run hybrid mode in the colder temps and just let it do it's thing. It's designed/programmed to not run all electric at certain temps. This has been talked about ad nauseam on the jl 4xe forum but people really want it to work a certain way so they say there must be something wrong and won't accept that this is the way it was programmed.

So I get this right - in order to preserve the life of the oil and engine, it requires the ICE to run a minimal amount of time for a thorough warm-up............
And out of curiosity, how are they warming the batteries? Coolant circulation or other means (like electric)

Pure electric mode uses electric motors, hence no reason for warm oil. If the drivetrain is designed to require warm motor oil when using electric propulsion, that’s incredibly dumb.

Yes, motor in the transmission and another belted to the engine.
There is a reason to make sure the oil gets up to temperature if you want the engine to last more than 20,000 miles. The problem with hybrids in general is that if the gas engine isn't operated enough or long enough, they suffer short life due to the oil being contaminated - fuel, moisture, all form acids that eat engine parts.
That's why short drives are killer on gas engines - and even worse on any hybrid. Imagine the ICE is run only long enough to hit 100-150 degrees each time - expect to be replacing parts.

I think that's what bleda2002 may be trying to say. He can correct me if wrong.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

The problem is that if it’s designed that way, due to a flaw in the combustion engine side of the drivetrain, it’s not advertised or documented that way. Jeep wants to surprise people with this problem after the sale. No ICE should allow gas into the oil system unless the rings are shot. Again, this is our fourth plug-in, in winter climates. We do understand how they work. This isn’t an electric issue, but an oil system issue. This is the first one with this problem. I do believe it’s a design problem they’ve tried to band-aid, but without being transparent with the buyers and owners.

Very wrong! There is ALWAYS a certain amount of contamination that makes it past the rings. Why do you think that a "PCV" system is needed?
Why do you think that engines that run E85 or pure ethanol need more frequent oil changes?
I've been a mechanic for 45 years and can tell you with certainty that even the best engine has some contamination from combustion make it to the crank case. Rings flutter and even rotate unless pinned. There was a study of aircraft engines that literally used cameras to capture the movement. And to get oil up on the cylinder for lubrication means combustion products can also make it down - if nothing else, when the rings scrape the oil off the cylinder walls on the way back down.

If I understand what he's saying, this isn't a design flaw - it's to protect that engine from being destroyed by never warming up to burn out the water and other contaminations.

Take any vehicle you own that's all gas operated and run it only long enough to get the temperature up to 150 or so for short times - it won't last 100,000 miles, maybe not even 70,000 miles. I've seen oil pans ROTTED and crankshafts and bearings etched.

I think maybe I see what bleda2002 is saying now.

 

[bleda2002]

https://www.4xeforums.com/threads/cold-weather-impact.348/

Here is a link to one (of many) posts on the subject and they all are the same basically. If you are getting fuel and oil refresh mode then you need to get the oil to 210 for 20 continuous minutes or it won't clear. Mopar makes a winter front for the 4xe to help with this but if you are getting FORM its working as designed sadly.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

you need to get the oil to 210 for 20 continuous minutes

That's a good practice for any gas engine if you want it to live long.

I have 2 oil pans up in my loft - if you hold them up to the bright light you can see what looks like a starry night through the bottoms of the sumps. Short drive cars.......... dunno why I keep them, the AMC oil pans are still available but maybe I've kept them to prove what happens when engines aren't warmed for long enough and/or oil isn't changed frequently enough.

Are you a former or current mechanic?

 

[WILDHOBO]

https://www.4xeforums.com/threads/cold-weather-impact.348/

Here is a link to one (of many) posts on the subject and they all are the same basically. If you are getting fuel and oil refresh mode then you need to get the oil to 210 for 20 continuous minutes or it won't clear. Mopar makes a winter front for the 4xe to help with this but if you are getting FORM its working as designed sadly.

Sadly is the word. Again, the problem is that this isn’t documented. Getting oil temp to 210 for 20-25 minutes is very difficult to achieve. You’d need to downshift to 3rd or 4th and keep it at 3000+ rpm’s for a long period of time. Poor design.

 

[bleda2002]

Sadly is the word. Again, the problem is that this isn’t documented. Getting oil temp to 210 for 20-25 minutes is very difficult to achieve. You’d need to downshift to 3rd or 4th and keep it at 3000+ rpm’s for a long period of time. Poor design.

Jeep cares grabbed it from somewhere, I don't know where but it seems to be documented. The picture I posted is straight from jeep cares and they had other notes explaining that short trips in the cold trigger it more and that you may need to get the engine to operating temperature for at least 20 minutes

I won't argue the lack of communication/clarity on this it probably should be spelled out better and better communicated for sure. In the mean time that winter front seems to be really helping folks.

 

[MrZappo]

Jeep are bad communicators. They are not bad designers.

To call it a bad design without knowing the reasons behind the design is not logical.

But, designing something and not telling people what to expect or respond to them when they ask legitimate questions is not so logical either.

In any event, I'd love to see what happens if you drive around for an hour or so. If it still uses no electric power, I'd have a lot more questions.

As of now I don't see enough detail to clearly show a problem or lack thereof.

 

[IanNubbit]

Yeah, then no offense, but she might not be a great resource. There are plenty of people who maybe don’t care about pure electric range, but we purchased it for that very feature, which is a feature of this vehicle. I posted this to get @JeepCares involved, as all other avenues have been exhausted at this point. If anyone experienced with this specific drivetrain has suggestions, I’m all ears. But random comments about hybrids in general aren’t applicable. Thanks though.

Now what I will say is there’s no documented cases of the issue in any of our tech resources. Also, what is the dealer saying? Are they able to drive it in EV mode or saying it won’t because the temperature and that’s normal?

 

[Pergrem]

EV is pretty awful in cold weather. This is nothing new. I have a cousin whose wife is all about the environment. She had an EV and loved it. That was until winter came. Would barley hold a charge, if any. She got rid of it and said she would never own another EV again.

EV has a way to go before it's reliable.

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