3.6 oil cooler fail

[Judd]

Zinc was a thing in much higher levels exceeding 1500ppm in old style race rod and flat tappet style rockers which did not feature a roller rocker . It was also common for big V-Twin flat tappet air cooled motorcycle engines to use such oil.
As Zinc is applied over and over and over through countless hours and heat cycles it attaches itself to metal parts this then in return left a sacrificial zinc zddp coating thereby softening or quieting the tappet. It literally did nothing more than coat everything. Molybdelum ( Moly) does the same thing coats things over time. Someone got smart a few years back even figured out it can coat projectiles used in weaponry , and it did speed up the projectile but what they discovered was the moly was slowly coating the barrels and then accuracy fell off the map not to mention it made the weapon very dirty.
Now with Zinc and Moly to imagine those 2 additives going into a modern engine that has solenoid that push high pressure oil to open up the high side of the lifters is troubling. It would eventually straight Gum up the works .

In today's oils especially modern synthetics additive such as Hybrid Ash is used the base oils of modern synthetic oils are so refined that oils of old even with additive could never come close to the strength of the film that is left on the metal by modern oils.
Modern oils for the win.

I sorta doubt zinc would be the problem you think it would be or describing. Find me one 3.6 that has been ruined by zinc "gumming up the works" and I'll eat my words. Till then, you are just pontificating on something that has no real world basis.

I do know this and I don't have to pontificate, zinc was not removed due to soleniods actuation in variable timing set-ups, it was removed because it (along with sulfur, phosphorous and moly) doesn't play well with cats.

I also know the 3.6 does in fact have cam/rocker issues as does the Hemi. Matter of fact, "wiping a cam lobe or a rocker" has gotten to be almost common place even on mild builds of flat tappet engines, even those with mild ramping cams and lowish spring rates. Back in the day, the only time we really worried about cam/lifter/rocker damage was when breaking in big lift cam and usually, the high spring rates that go with them. Slap moly lube on the lobes and hope for the best. If the cam got through the first 30 minuts,,,,, you were usually good to go.

What changed? Modern oils for win I reckon.....

But none of that matters. The 3.6 does in fact have cam/rocker issues and Stellanis should have already done something about it. They have not which is why I decided to research and do my own thing. As I stated, I'm convinced the issue is a result of several issues and not one single thing. I do my best to work around those issues by using an oil with proven good oil analysis results even though many experts will decry as too thick, changing it at 5K vs whatever the Stallanis algorithym says, I defeated stop and go and try to mitigate long idling (understand, I overland alot, slept in my vehicle two nights a week for a year so my results are relative and not usually apples to apples).

But it the end, I came here just trying to find out what the most common failure mode for the leaking oil cooler issue was so I could make a better guess as to if the seal swelling snake oil might be able to address the issue and it turned into everthing but that.

BTW folks, another week with the leak apparently mitigated. Blue Devil for the win I reckon. But hey, I will be buying an aluminum Dorman oil cooler kit to have "just in case" and in all fairness to the scientific method, I'll chime in peridically to update and if the Blue Devil snake oil "ruins my delicate, complicated modern engine", I report that too.

In the mean time, it's no longer leaking oil to the point of smoking due to oil on the exhaust, no more burt oil smell, haven't added any oil in two weeks all the while my wife's car sits at the shop awaiting part. So far, about as good as my luck gets.

Y'all have a good un.

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[Stan H]

I sorta doubt zinc would be the problem you think it would be or describing. Find me one 3.6 that has been ruined by zinc "gumming up the works" and I'll eat my words. Till then, you are just pontificating on something that has no real world basis.

I do know this and I don't have to pontificate, zinc was not removed due to soleniods actuation in variable timing set-ups, it was removed because it (along with sulfur, phosphorous and moly) doesn't play well with cats.

I also know the 3.6 does in fact have cam/rocker issues as does the Hemi. Matter of fact, "wiping a cam lobe or a rocker" has gotten to be almost common place even on mild builds of flat tappet engines, even those with mild ramping cams and lowish spring rates. Back in the day, the only time we really worried about cam/lifter/rocker damage was when breaking in big lift cam and usually, the high spring rates that go with them. Slap moly lube on the lobes and hope for the best. If the cam got through the first 30 minuts,,,,, you were usually good to go.

What changed? Modern oils for win I reckon.....

But none of that matters. The 3.6 does in fact have cam/rocker issues and Stellanis should have already done something about it. They have not which is why I decided to research and do my own thing. As I stated, I'm convinced the issue is a result of several issues and not one single thing. I do my best to work around those issues by using an oil with proven good oil analysis results even though many experts will decry as too thick, changing it at 5K vs whatever the Stallanis algorithym says, I defeated stop and go and try to mitigate long idling (understand, I overland alot, slept in my vehicle two nights a week for a year so my results are relative and not usually apples to apples).

But it the end, I came here just trying to find out what the most common failure mode for the leaking oil cooler issue was so I could make a better guess as to if the seal swelling snake oil might be able to address the issue and it turned into everthing but that.

BTW folks, another week with the leak apparently mitigated. Blue Devil for the win I reckon. But hey, I will be buying an aluminum Dorman oil cooler kit to have "just in case" and in all fairness to the scientific method, I'll chime in peridically to update and if the Blue Devil snake oil "ruins my delicate, complicated modern engine", I report that too.

In the mean time, it's no longer leaking oil to the point of smoking due to oil on the exhaust, no more burt oil smell, haven't added any oil in two weeks all the while my wife's car sits at the shop awaiting part. So far, about as good as my luck gets.

Y'all have a good un.

To each their own explanation of course .
Not that it matters but not pontificating it does build up on parts those are last things in high concentration you want in one of these .
Antifreeze was also changed it now is hoat or oat in most vehicles. Why . Because the motors changed . The engines of old were cast iron blocks & heads . Now they are Aluminum. Using the wrong Antifreeze will cause problems . Heck adding tap water instead of distilled water will turn the Antifreeze for these engines into a orangish red slushy and then you got big problems.
As engines change the things that go in it change . Just trying to help .

 

[ShadowsPapa]

But in his case would you say the Blue Devil worked or do you think it’s done damage?

Damage will be longer term. You'll have to wait or tear his engine down.
I've torn down engines where the seals literally were rubbery, enlarged, and weird and all had to be replaced.
It's a craps shoot. You may win, you may lose - but if it swells certain seals - it's not one I'd want to buy.

I think the Dorman oil cooler being cast in aluminum is one answer to this issue. Stellanis should have already got off their ass and done this but hey, leave it to capitalism and the aftermarket to do the right thing and at try to offer a potential fix.

the dorman piece uses the old figure 8 seals, not the new design
The aluminum itself may help, but it's not a seal solution.

 

[Stan H]

Damage will be longer term. You'll have to wait or tear his engine down.
I've torn down engines where the seals literally were rubbery, enlarged, and weird and all had to be replaced.
It's a craps shoot. You may win, you may lose - but if it swells certain seals - it's not one I'd want to buy.



the dorman piece uses the old figure 8 seals, not the new design
The aluminum itself may help, but it's not a seal solution.

Figure 8? are you meaning octagon shaped?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I do know this and I don't have to pontificate, zinc was not removed due to soleniods actuation in variable timing set-ups, it was removed because it (along with sulfur, phosphorous and moly) doesn't play well with cats.

And it's just plain not a big thing any more. Modern oils have better properties.
Too much zinc DOES in fact gunk things up and actually destroys iron .
A little is good, a lot is not good.
I have the science backing that and can provide links to the testing and so on.

Matter of fact, "wiping a cam lobe or a rocker" has gotten to be almost common place even on mild builds of flat tappet engines, even those with mild ramping cams and lowish spring rates.

My most recent builds were with comp xtreme energy cams. They have radical ramps, really slam the valves open and closed fast. that's how they move air without a super-high lift. They open it wide quickly and keep it open wide longer then close it quickly.
I am running a comp cam and mopar performance springs in one of my cars - I started it, checked it over for leaks and drove it.
Never lost a cam. Not in over 50 years.

Be careful with your internet "research". Much of it is opinions, few facts.
Lake Speed Jr is one exception. In the end, even he says "run what the book suggests"

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Figure 8? are you meaning octagon shaped?

No, like the figure or number 8
That center of the "8" is the problem area. The new MOPAR design has 2 distinct grooves, not connected to each other, so uses 4 seals instead of 2 shaped like an 8

 

[ShadowsPapa]

great real science life story with real use results

LOL - a case of one person isn't science. It's results for him.
Wait until you take apart an engine that's had seal sweller stuff in it and the rubber is sticky and swollen. I've had to use solvents to get the seal rubber to come off of stuff.

 

[Stan H]

But in his case would you say the Blue Devil worked or do you think it’s done damage?

It usually will soften old hardened seals . If they get too soft then they won't hold pressure. It may go for 50k miles and never have a problem that seal may have the support it needs but if possibly another may or may not be affected. It's a roulette wheel Id say.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

It usually will soften old hardened seals . If they get too soft then they won't hold pressure. It may go for 50k miles and never have a problem that seal may have the support it needs but if possibly another may or may not be affected. It's a roulette wheel Id say.

The problem with these specific seals is normally a roll- over in the middle. Some of the pics are, well, interesting

 

[Cburd61]

only with a pressure system. That's the only way - remove a gallery plug, hose in a pressure tank, and push oil into the galleries.

Guess what the TSMs (Technical Service Manuals) of the 70s said about priming:
Fill the oil pump with petroleum jelly and reassemble.

And that's how thousands and thousands of engines were done.

I remember back in the 80’s, I was building my Triumph Bonneville engine. 2 in the morning, ready to prime the oil pump and fire it up. Got some strange looks buying a small jar of Vaseline at the local 7-11 at that early hour…….

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I remember back in the 80’s, I was building my Triumph Bonneville engine. 2 in the morning, ready to prime the oil pump and fire it up. Got some strange looks buying a small jar of Vaseline at the local 7-11 at that early hour…….

I'll bet! LOL

And for anyone wondering - here's one such example from a book I have -

 

[Stan H]

I'll bet! LOL

And for anyone wondering - here's one such example from a book I have -

My Uncle used to do alot of V8's and I know he and other from back in a day not only did the assembly lube on bearings as is still done at nearly every engine rebuild shop , but before putting the distributor in they would use a drill and prime the oil pump with the octagonal rod that drive the oil pump.
I think its still a thing today in older engine rebuilds.
Now the petrolatum in the pump is the very first I ever heard of that . I learn every day. I sould have went into mechanics instead of Safety enjoy it much more .

 

[ShadowsPapa]

My Uncle used to do alot of V8's and I know he and other from back in a day not only did the assembly lube on bearings as is still done at nearly every engine rebuild shop , but before putting the distributor in they would use a drill and prime the oil pump with the octagonal rod that drive the oil pump.
I think its still a thing today in older engine rebuilds.
Now the petrolatum in the pump is the very first I ever heard of that . I learn every day. I sould have went into mechanics instead of Safety enjoy it much more .

I never bothered with the drill. I either didn't prime that way, filling the filter manually, using assembly lube, or - using a speed handle and the appropriate bit.
Speed handle lets you know when pressure is built, the feel of the oil pump and so on.
In this one below - I hit 50 psi with that speed handle.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

My Uncle used to do alot of V8's and I know he and other from back in a day not only did the assembly lube on bearings as is still done at nearly every engine rebuild shop , but before putting the distributor in they would use a drill and prime the oil pump with the octagonal rod that drive the oil pump.
I think its still a thing today in older engine rebuilds.
Now the petrolatum in the pump is the very first I ever heard of that . I learn every day. I sould have went into mechanics instead of Safety enjoy it much more .

 

[Hootbro]

Petroleum Jelly is probably one of the most underappreciated lubricants. It is a great assembly lube for things like coating O-rings, gaskets and other surfaces that come in contact with other petroleum products like motor oils, gear lubes, ATF and even fuel. It is a miscible neutral lubricant with other petroleum based hydrocarbon products.

I got introduced to its many uses when I was in the Army working in aviation. I always have jar of it in my garage and use consistently as previously mentioned.

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