Another Cam bites the dust...

[Hootbro]

The cam failures aren't limited to Jeeps, the Promaster (odd name for a vehicle that is neither a Pro nor a Master) vans in my work fleet eat more than their fair share of cams along with a host of other issues,

Out of what number of vans at your work have had the issue?

If one is to believe it is just some very rare instance out of the millions made, really should be low for fleet size operators.

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[ShadowsPapa]

Interesting. I know a contractor that gets 250k miles out of the pentastar 3.6 in his RAM vans. Swear by them.

What model years?

 

[Jteakus]

2016-2025 year models

I will dig in to service records for exact numbers but a quick guess would be 5%

 

[Jteakus]

Interesting. I know a contractor that gets 250k miles out of the pentastar 3.6 in his RAM vans. Swear by them.

But his employees drive them hard.

Been going on for years with many commercial units and with contractors.
And RAM still offers them.

Funny how the internet is. Can't tell the BS from the truth.

Oh, we get the miles out of them and yes they are mistreated but they get PM on schedule and most issues are addressed during PM. I would say their lives are MUCH harder than 99.999% of Jeeps out there.

 

[FrankFrqnkFrank]

PM’s can last. An expeditor discovered that their instrument panels go blank around 621,000 miles probably because Fiat couldn’t imagine the van with a European engine and transmission (the US version has the Pentastar of course and the ubiquitous 62TE transmission) could hit 1,000,000 kilometers

 

[ShadowsPapa]

2016-2025 year models

I will dig in to service records for exact numbers but a quick guess would be 5%

Promaster was among the last to get the upgrade engine.
So anything up to something like 2021 has the Gen 1 3.6 without VVL.
When talking the promaster - years matter for which engine it has.

Up through 21 will have the Gen 1 and the roller bearing failures.
22+ could have the high lift follower/cam lobe failure.

 

[MPMB]

Curious - where are you getting that intel?
I've seen a lot of 'em talk of #3 failing.
I've got more photos of cams failing at 3 and 5 than 1, or even multiple cylinders than #1 alone.

From my initial research into the problem about a year ago, most issues (iirc) were around Cyl 1. I thought it akin to the history of the SBC where #3 is the "trouble" cylinder (again, iirc). Maybe Cyl 1 is the first one that trips the CEL. I've been pretty much radio silence on here, so I haven't read up on everyone's issues to stay on top of the data.

Note - below I use error/problem/failure rate interchangeably, it's all the same to me.

tl;dr: At minimum a 1.8% valvetrain failure rate in the 3.6l, which exceeds the ITAF goals and industry standards of 0-3PPM defects.

The Numbers - Assumptions
If it's true that the cam kit has or had ~12,000 backordered in 2025 alone, it's a bigger issue than a small micro-percentage. Additionally, the cam kit has the 2nd or 3rd part revision camshaft than the OEM camshaft, if my part search was correct. I don't know how MFGs rename P/Ns over time, if it's a new design, new production run, or new year, or something else. But if it's for a new design, then Mopar has been trying to "solve" this issue multiple times without success.

The 3.6l is in ~10 different vehicles (70 by different years+configs). Between 2020-2025, there were and estimated 4 to 5 million Pentastar 3.6l engines made.

The number mentioned in another thread was that Mopar had a backorder of 12,000 cam kits as of June/July timeframe. So let's just take that number as a baseline. We don't know how many cams or cam kits Mopar has on on-hand for the 3.6l. If 12,000 are backordered, then we can infer that the on-hand stock was depleted earlier this year, so the actual demand for cams/cam kit is over 12,000 units. And production averages would suggest that the quantity year over year doesn't fluctuate that much, unless there's a giant uptick in usage of the motor in other platforms (for example, the 3.6l replaces the 5.7l across the board, resulting in ~400,000 more units produced per year).

Additionally, this was the demand for the first half of 2025. Could we assume the second half would be similar to the first half? If that was the case, that would be at least 24,000 cam kits needed per year. But let's just stick to the 12,000 number for now.

Figuring the Error Rate
We can play the numbers game. Let's assume that 12,000 cams are the minimum on-hand stock needed for replacement for each year the engine is produced. That's 72,000 cams over 6 years (for my analysis of the JT only, '20-'25 ). And in those 6 years, Stellantis has produced between 4-5 million Pentastar 3.6l. 72,000 cams / 4 million engines is, at minimum, a 1.8% failure rate.

Industry benchmarks put an acceptable error rate at 75 PPM or lower. That's 0.0075%. 1.8% is almost 25x the error rate normally accepted in production. In the automotive world (from my quick Google-fu), the IATF specifies a 0-defect goal, but manufacturers fall somewhere between 1 and 3 PPM, or less than .0003%.

Removing Diesels
Diesel JTs are about 10% of total sales and unaffected by the issue (is that still correct? We get the cam problem, diesels get poor cooling). 330,000 JTs sold (sources vary), minus the diesels equals 297,000 gas JTs. According to GoodCarBadCar, sales numbers are ~400k; 360k gassers.

Percent of JTs Sold w/ Problem
So, if (a big if) that 12,000 backordered kit is just for JTs - and we ignore the already fixed JTs over the previous 5-6 years, JLs & other vehicles - the numbers work out to 3.6% of JTs with a cam issue. With the GCBC numbers, it drops to 3.3%. But of course, this calculation ignores a lot of reasonable assumptions.

If we apply the 1.8% error rate to sold JTs, that's 5300-6,500 JTs that need/got cam replacements. 6500 JTs out of 400,000 doesn't really sound so bad, does it? Maybe to people who don't really comprehend percentages and numbers. And those are optimistic numbers. Remember me saying 12,000 units was for roughly 1/2 the year? If 24,000 units were a more accurate number, that's 3.6% error rate, that's about 13,000 JTs.

Going back to the IATF standards of 0-3PPM, the failure rate across the 3.6l production numbers should be 1200 cams across 10 models and 6 years. I think we're well beyond that.

Analogy: What if, out of 100 Coke cans, 2 had carbonated water only? Or more absurd but shocking, 2 of the 100 cans had poison in them?

Comparison
Comparable situation: Toyota had a defective dash panel that was prone to melting or cracking in extreme heat. The recall covered 3.5 million vehicles from 2003-2011, 12 different vehicles. During that time, Toyota produced between 85-90 million vehicles. 3.5m of 85m is 4.1%, about 2.3x the 1.8% error rate of the 3.6l, but closer to the 3.6% possibility.

Toyota's solution was reimbursement for owners who paid for dashboard replacement, free replacement once parts were available, extended primary warranty coverage to 5/31/2017 regardless of mileage, and extended secondary coverage to 10 years regardless of mileage.

And this was for a part that is pretty irrelevant to the vehicle's core function of mobility and if it failed, did not result in a further, more expensive repair.

AI Information
A quick AI query:
There’s no official tally from Jeep or Stellantis on how many 3.6L Pentastar engines have suffered camshaft failures since 2020, but based on widespread forum discussions, mechanic reports, and user experiences, the issue appears to be alarmingly common—especially in Jeep Gladiators and Wranglers built from 2020 onward.

Here’s what we can piece together:
Observational Insights

• Forum Activity: Threads like this one on Jeep Gladiator Forum show dozens of owners reporting cam and lifter failures, often within 20,000–60,000 miles.
• Mechanic Reports: Service departments have performed multiple cam and lifter replacements, with some shops seeing several cases per month.
• Design Revisions: Jeep has issued multiple revisions to rocker arms and cams, suggesting ongoing attempts to address the issue.
• Aftermarket Solutions: The problem is so prevalent that aftermarket companies have developed parts to mitigate oil filtration and wear concerns.

Estimated Scope
While there’s no hard number, the scale of complaints suggests thousands of affected engines across Jeep Gladiators, Wranglers, and other Pentastar-equipped vehicles.

When asked about the JT's Cam Kit backorder issue:
Backorder Status Highlights

• Right Intake Camshaft Kit (Part #68661147AA):
  • Listed as extreme backorder
  • Estimated wait: 6–12 months
  • Fits Gladiator models from 2021 to 2025
• Dealership Reports:
• Some dealers are waiting on cam kits for 4+ vehicles at a time
• Mopar parts distribution is tight, and dealers with inventory are reluctant to release them

Why the Shortage?

• High failure rates of camshafts and lifters in 3.6L Pentastar engines
• Limited supply chain capacity for revised parts
• Increased demand from Gladiator, Wrangler, and other Pentastar-equipped vehicles

 

[ShadowsPapa]

What I'm seeing reported in forums pre-dates 2020 model year in several cases.
We can't forget that some FCA vehicles with the upgrade engine are just now hitting the mark where they need a cam - some go over 100,000 before the issue presents itself, some fail below that, but still in an older model.
I've seen people in the Wrangler side talking of their 2019 just now needing a cam - they don't go any 10K/year.

We know the failure hits JL and Ram models as well. For some reason, doesn't seem to be as prevalent with the Grand Cherokee and that seems a bit odd. It happens, it's not hard to find examples out there, but not in the numbers of the JT.

The Promaster keeps coming up but that didn't get the VVL engine until 2022 model year.

Not disputing your logic, time and math - just tossing out some other observations on this side (and conversations about the backorder with my dealership people)

 

[chr15m]

Comparison
Comparable situation: Toyota had a defective dash panel that was prone to melting or cracking in extreme heat. The recall covered 3.5 million vehicles from 2003-2011, 12 different vehicles. During that time, Toyota produced between 85-90 million vehicles. 3.5m of 85m is 4.1%, about 2.3x the 1.8% error rate of the 3.6l, but closer to the 3.6% possibility.

Toyota's solution was reimbursement for owners who paid for dashboard replacement, free replacement once parts were available, extended primary warranty coverage to 5/31/2017 regardless of mileage, and extended secondary coverage to 10 years regardless of mileage.

And this was for a part that is pretty irrelevant to the vehicle's core function of mobility and if it failed, did not result in a further, more expensive repair.

Toyota has their own rather serious history with defects. Maybe not the ideal comparison candidate. In my brief efforts to understand these issues on macro level across all brands it seems Ford may be the most proactive with resolutions. Ironically they also get cited for their extensive warranty claims and cost, which may actually be more suggestive of commitment than poor quality.

As a person effected by early Tacoma recall on the 3rd gen platform, Toyota also did a recall regarding rear differentials that encompassed 100% of their Tacomas made 2016-2017.

At that point my 2016 had been in the shop 3x already for a suspected CSPS issue that would turn the truck off while driving.

At the point of bringing it in the 3rd time I was notified that to pick the truck up after diagnosis I would have to sign a release waiver or opt to have the recall on the differential done. Issue with the recall was that there were not parts available for it, essentially Toyota was taking Tacomas in and leaving them in "storage" until a fix was sent to the service depts.

I filed a lemon claim to Toyota and they discussed the claim with me, ultimately buying the truck back at original cost.

Two co-workers of mine released their 2017 Tacomas to the recall, both got their trucks back 6 and 8 months later. Both still had issues with noise from the differential, one of them had it replaced a 2nd time later on and then ultimately sold it for a Subaru.

I figured once the early bugs were worked out I'd try again, purchased a 2018 Tacoma that had no performative issues, but the rear differential made a very audible ~1khz noise at any speed above 20 mph and after 18k miles would form a visible bead of fluid from time to time.

Essentially they took action and replaced parts but also created periods up to half a year long where owners had no vehicle. Very similar to what some Jeep owners are encountering now. After the recall period ended people still reported the issue on Tacomaworld and some owners had theirs replaced as many as 3x with no resolution. Now theyve moved to entirely new generations with a whole host of new issues far more severe than what we are encountering with our Jeeps.

They also later issued another recall for even more trucks. Totaling nearly all Tacomas made 2016-2023. Although it was for a supposed axle weld issue that could cause the rear axle to come apart while driving.

Those recalls were spurred by trucks crashing and NHSTA filings. Finding that now is difficult, Toyota is good at publicity since their Prius issues that did result in death. Hell, they were fined for their efforts to hide it, to the tune of >1 billion.

For the Tacoma issue Toyota offered free rental, up to 1 month. After that it was out of pocket and one of my co-workers opted to file under insurance to get coverage for the rental. They never extended warranties to my co-workers either.

My observation, its that all manufacturers have issues that arise. In regards to poisoned Coke can analogy, camshafts failing due to wear from the rocker isn't going to send your Prius into stopped traffic at 100+. Quick searching suggest that 89 people died as a result of that issue. If I had to opt for risk I'd take a 6mo wait for a camshaft.

Encountering an issue with camshafts right now is affecting multiple manufacturers including Ford, Ram and Chevrolet. It has also been a prevailing issue on older engines and seemingly was never resolved. It sucks and I agree with the sentiment that it would be ideal to have engineers that could resolve this quickly so that delays aren't an issue. But that appears to be an issue beyond Jeep specifically.

So far it seems the silver lining is that even with shaved cam lobes, full engine replacement due to debris is rarer still. Hemi's are not fairing the same at all.

 

[OldButStillJeeping]

From my initial research into the problem about a year ago, most issues (iirc) were around Cyl 1. I thought it akin to the history of the SBC where #3 is the "trouble" cylinder (again, iirc). Maybe Cyl 1 is the first one that trips the CEL. I've been pretty much radio silence on here, so I haven't read up on everyone's issues to stay on top of the data.

Note - below I use error/problem/failure rate interchangeably, it's all the same to me.

tl;dr: At minimum a 1.8% valvetrain failure rate in the 3.6l, which exceeds the ITAF goals and industry standards of 0-3PPM defects.

The Numbers - Assumptions
If it's true that the cam kit has or had ~12,000 backordered in 2025 alone, it's a bigger issue than a small micro-percentage. Additionally, the cam kit has the 2nd or 3rd part revision camshaft than the OEM camshaft, if my part search was correct. I don't know how MFGs rename P/Ns over time, if it's a new design, new production run, or new year, or something else. But if it's for a new design, then Mopar has been trying to "solve" this issue multiple times without success.

The 3.6l is in ~10 different vehicles (70 by different years+configs). Between 2020-2025, there were and estimated 4 to 5 million Pentastar 3.6l engines made.

The number mentioned in another thread was that Mopar had a backorder of 12,000 cam kits as of June/July timeframe. So let's just take that number as a baseline. We don't know how many cams or cam kits Mopar has on on-hand for the 3.6l. If 12,000 are backordered, then we can infer that the on-hand stock was depleted earlier this year, so the actual demand for cams/cam kit is over 12,000 units. And production averages would suggest that the quantity year over year doesn't fluctuate that much, unless there's a giant uptick in usage of the motor in other platforms (for example, the 3.6l replaces the 5.7l across the board, resulting in ~400,000 more units produced per year).

Additionally, this was the demand for the first half of 2025. Could we assume the second half would be similar to the first half? If that was the case, that would be at least 24,000 cam kits needed per year. But let's just stick to the 12,000 number for now.

Figuring the Error Rate
We can play the numbers game. Let's assume that 12,000 cams are the minimum on-hand stock needed for replacement for each year the engine is produced. That's 72,000 cams over 6 years (for my analysis of the JT only, '20-'25 ). And in those 6 years, Stellantis has produced between 4-5 million Pentastar 3.6l. 72,000 cams / 4 million engines is, at minimum, a 1.8% failure rate.

Industry benchmarks put an acceptable error rate at 75 PPM or lower. That's 0.0075%. 1.8% is almost 25x the error rate normally accepted in production. In the automotive world (from my quick Google-fu), the IATF specifies a 0-defect goal, but manufacturers fall somewhere between 1 and 3 PPM, or less than .0003%.

Removing Diesels
Diesel JTs are about 10% of total sales and unaffected by the issue (is that still correct? We get the cam problem, diesels get poor cooling). 330,000 JTs sold (sources vary), minus the diesels equals 297,000 gas JTs. According to GoodCarBadCar, sales numbers are ~400k; 360k gassers.

Percent of JTs Sold w/ Problem
So, if (a big if) that 12,000 backordered kit is just for JTs - and we ignore the already fixed JTs over the previous 5-6 years, JLs & other vehicles - the numbers work out to 3.6% of JTs with a cam issue. With the GCBC numbers, it drops to 3.3%. But of course, this calculation ignores a lot of reasonable assumptions.

If we apply the 1.8% error rate to sold JTs, that's 5300-6,500 JTs that need/got cam replacements. 6500 JTs out of 400,000 doesn't really sound so bad, does it? Maybe to people who don't really comprehend percentages and numbers. And those are optimistic numbers. Remember me saying 12,000 units was for roughly 1/2 the year? If 24,000 units were a more accurate number, that's 3.6% error rate, that's about 13,000 JTs.

Going back to the IATF standards of 0-3PPM, the failure rate across the 3.6l production numbers should be 1200 cams across 10 models and 6 years. I think we're well beyond that.

Analogy: What if, out of 100 Coke cans, 2 had carbonated water only? Or more absurd but shocking, 2 of the 100 cans had poison in them?

Comparison
Comparable situation: Toyota had a defective dash panel that was prone to melting or cracking in extreme heat. The recall covered 3.5 million vehicles from 2003-2011, 12 different vehicles. During that time, Toyota produced between 85-90 million vehicles. 3.5m of 85m is 4.1%, about 2.3x the 1.8% error rate of the 3.6l, but closer to the 3.6% possibility.

Toyota's solution was reimbursement for owners who paid for dashboard replacement, free replacement once parts were available, extended primary warranty coverage to 5/31/2017 regardless of mileage, and extended secondary coverage to 10 years regardless of mileage.

And this was for a part that is pretty irrelevant to the vehicle's core function of mobility and if it failed, did not result in a further, more expensive repair.

AI Information
A quick AI query:
There’s no official tally from Jeep or Stellantis on how many 3.6L Pentastar engines have suffered camshaft failures since 2020, but based on widespread forum discussions, mechanic reports, and user experiences, the issue appears to be alarmingly common—especially in Jeep Gladiators and Wranglers built from 2020 onward.

Here’s what we can piece together:
Observational Insights

• Forum Activity: Threads like this one on Jeep Gladiator Forum show dozens of owners reporting cam and lifter failures, often within 20,000–60,000 miles.
• Mechanic Reports: Service departments have performed multiple cam and lifter replacements, with some shops seeing several cases per month.
• Design Revisions: Jeep has issued multiple revisions to rocker arms and cams, suggesting ongoing attempts to address the issue.
• Aftermarket Solutions: The problem is so prevalent that aftermarket companies have developed parts to mitigate oil filtration and wear concerns.

Estimated Scope
While there’s no hard number, the scale of complaints suggests thousands of affected engines across Jeep Gladiators, Wranglers, and other Pentastar-equipped vehicles.

When asked about the JT's Cam Kit backorder issue:
Backorder Status Highlights

• Right Intake Camshaft Kit (Part #68661147AA):
  • Listed as extreme backorder
  • Estimated wait: 6–12 months
  • Fits Gladiator models from 2021 to 2025
• Dealership Reports:
• Some dealers are waiting on cam kits for 4+ vehicles at a time
• Mopar parts distribution is tight, and dealers with inventory are reluctant to release them

Why the Shortage?

• High failure rates of camshafts and lifters in 3.6L Pentastar engines
• Limited supply chain capacity for revised parts
• Increased demand from Gladiator, Wrangler, and other Pentastar-equipped vehicles

Impressive Report!!!!

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Impressive Report!!!!

He does his homework and knows how to interpret it.

 

[Hootbro]

At the point of bringing it in the 3rd time I was notified that to pick the truck up after diagnosis I would have to sign a release waiver or opt to have the recall on the differential done. Issue with the recall was that there were not parts available for it, essentially Toyota was taking Tacomas in and leaving them in "storage" until a fix was sent to the service depts.

Is that even legal for them to do that? On first read, my reaction was to go for option #3 and take my fucking property and go home with a "fuck you" on you bullshit release. Of course they would probably flag your warranty to be dicks but that sticks in my craw those were the only two options with both being shit ones.

 

[chr15m]

Is that even legal for them to do that? On first read, my reaction was to go for option #3 and take my fucking property and go home with a "fuck you" on you bullshit release. Of course they would probably flag your warranty to be dicks but that sticks in my craw those were the only two options with both being shit ones.

I don't know if that was the dealership or Toyota. It may have been corporate as I remember it being a CYA on the dealerships end. I really don't think the dealer cared as much as they were likely forced to care. It was obviously my last straw with that truck.

 

[Hootbro]

I don't know if that was the dealership or Toyota. It may have been corporate as I remember it being a CYA on the dealerships end. I really don't think the dealer cared as much as they were likely forced to care. It was obviously my last straw with that truck.

I had my own shenanigans with Toyota and recalls. I bought a 2019 Tacoma that was past all the stuff you mentioned but did eventually pop up for a recall with the front grille radar sensor and water intrusion IIRC. There was two options to the recall and depended if you had the standard grille or the TRD Pro gille.

Mine originally came with the standard grille style but like a lot of other Tacoma owners, a popular mod was to install the TRD Pro grille. I took it in for the radar sensor recall with the TRD Pro grille installed and they performed the TRD Pro variant of the recall and sent me on my way. Not long after that, I eventually traded it in on my 2020 Gladiator Rubicon JT.

A few months in, I am getting calls from the Toyota dealer that did the recall and it seems Toyota corporate would not reimburse them for the recall work done on my truck because the VIN did not come back as a TRD Pro. They wanted like $180 from me and I basically told them to pound sand. Was bugged a few more times but eventually the issue got dropped.

 

[MPMB]

<snip> it seems Ford may be the most proactive with resolutions.<snip>

My SIL has a 2012 Focus that had the transmission issue. The one that Ford basically said "it's a feature, not a bug" for Focus and Fiestas (a friend also had a Fiesta with the Amazing Shuddering Transmission). Yet go to any transmission shop and there were stacks of that transmission (according to the other forums). It took Ford quite a while before admitting they screwed up.

The other issue Ford was reluctant to take ownership on was the continued problems with painting aluminum and the eventual corrosion. When it started to impact the Expeditions, Ford blamed owners for not keeping their vehicles clean and denied warranty claims. Some owners fought Ford and were reimbursed for repainting of liftgates.

I haven't paid much attention to Ford's issues since ~2018 timeframe.

But yes, I agree that all manufacturers have issues. VW had the infamous MAF sensor and window regulator issues in the MKIV Golfs and Jettas.

One vehicle issue I forgot to mention was what I thought a most egregious f**king of owners (in my time as an automotive enthusiast). The Audi S4 V8, 2004-08 model years (iirc).

The 4.2L V8 had plastic timing chain guides and tensioners that would break on a whim. Some owners got 20,000 miles, some got 100k+. The problem affected all the 4.2L engines, but the highest concentration was in the S4, I think. When the plastic parts broke, it was rare the engine escaped damage.

The "best" part? The 4.2L V8 had the timing chains on the back of the engine. The issue was impossible to fix without removing the engine. And removing the engine required disassembly of pretty much everything from the firewall forward.

The replacement kit was in the $3000+ range and years later $2000. Now it's about $1500. The labor was around $5000-$8000, depending on the shop.

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