COVID VACCINE

[Fireman 848]

I declined the vaccine 2 weeks ago (first responder) tested 13 times this past year never positive. Never any symptoms. Is it luck? Being aware? I don't know? But, then again. Nobody knows

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[Renegade]

This will be my only post to this thread because I can't let this be a time sink. I am an MD/PhD (in other words, I am trained in research and the practice of medicine). I work with the sickest of the covid patients at a large hospital. I also work with heart and lung transplant patients. I took the vaccine (partially for myself, partially for the community, but mainly for my patients because while I am low risk, my patients are not). I also recommended that my parents with no risk factors other than age take the vaccine. I am not in a hurry for my school-age children to take the vaccine at this time (they are low risk and do not have exposure to high risk people ... I will likely reconsider this once the vaccine is more widely available ... see #4 below) ... this roughly summarizes my interpretation of the literature ... for those who want to educate themselves to understand the implications of the vaccines

Here is where I would start
1) Wikipedia article on the immune system ... feel free to skip to the portion on adaptive immunity and look at the first picture and then skip on down to the section on immunological memory ... as you do, realize that an "antigen" can be anything that your body mounts an immune response to ... the trick with a vaccine is to present something to your immune system that looks like a virus or bacteria (i.e. a pathogen)that you want to teach your body how to fight ... these are vaccines - they are teaching your body how to make antibodies against a pathogen (covid in this case) without giving you the disease
2) a practical thing about research and regulations - show how something works and then collect and demonstrate efficacy in the most efficient way possible ... for example - show that people in one treatment arm have fewer symptoms than in the non-treatment arm of a study ... if you have also, demonstrated how it works (e.g. antibodies against a spike protein on the surface of a virus are produced then you can combine that with the knowledge from #1 above)
3) Do we know everything about it? Nope (by the way, we don't even fully understand how Tylenol works ... this is part of the reason that I love the intersection of medicine and research). Do we know that fewer people get sick. Yep. Have I personally read a large enough study to tell me whether a covid exposed individual after both doses of the vaccine has a) no viral load, b) a short time with a viral load, and/or c) a lower viral load ... not yet, but I am certain that the studies are underway ... notice that all of the possibilities that I am presenting involve less virus (combine 1 and 2)
4) To some points earlier in the thread ... from a community perspective, there are few important items that work together in an infectious disease ... a) how infectious is it (i.e. for one person with the disease, how many other people will become infected... this is sometimes referred to as "R"), b) how many of the infected people will get "sick" ... I am using "sick" in a hospital sense here, which means enough to worry a doctor ... I am being purposely vague here because the appropriate list varies with disease, but I believe that we can all agree that death, long-term need for intubation, and cardiac failure can be included on this list ... so from a community health perspective either decrease the rate of infection and/or decrease the number of infected people who get "sick" ... fyi "R" for covid is greater than 1, which means that on average more than 1 person becomes infected for 1 person currently infected ... this is one of the more difficult problems with covid at a community level ... luckily R is only slightly larger than 1 which means that with a relatively small decrease in infection rate that the prevalence (number of carriers) should start to decrease
5) combine 3 and 4 ... and ask yourself why so many doctors are excitedly getting the vaccine despite not being high risk (the appointments for the first wave of vaccinations at my hospital were filled in less than 4 hours) ... no we are not being mandated to do so
6) Please take your advice from well trained and educated medical professionals. Please make your personal decision based off of what is best for you, what is best for those you care about and spend time with, and our community as a whole

... almost forgot the standard disclaimer that is part of any research talk ... I have no financial conflict of interest regarding the treatments discussed above

Now back to the part of this forum that I find joy from... thank you all for that ... and that is why I put the time and thought into the post above after a long day of patient care

But, did you stay at a Holiday Express last night?

 

[5JeepsAz]

This will be my only post to this thread because I can't let this be a time sink. I am an MD/PhD (in other words, I am trained in research and the practice of medicine). I work with the sickest of the covid patients at a large hospital. I also work with heart and lung transplant patients. I took the vaccine (partially for myself, partially for the community, but mainly for my patients because while I am low risk, my patients are not). I also recommended that my parents with no risk factors other than age take the vaccine. I am not in a hurry for my school-age children to take the vaccine at this time (they are low risk and do not have exposure to high risk people ... I will likely reconsider this once the vaccine is more widely available ... see #4 below) ... this roughly summarizes my interpretation of the literature ... for those who want to educate themselves to understand the implications of the vaccines

Here is where I would start
1) Wikipedia article on the immune system ... feel free to skip to the portion on adaptive immunity and look at the first picture and then skip on down to the section on immunological memory ... as you do, realize that an "antigen" can be anything that your body mounts an immune response to ... the trick with a vaccine is to present something to your immune system that looks like a virus or bacteria (i.e. a pathogen)that you want to teach your body how to fight ... these are vaccines - they are teaching your body how to make antibodies against a pathogen (covid in this case) without giving you the disease
2) a practical thing about research and regulations - show how something works and then collect and demonstrate efficacy in the most efficient way possible ... for example - show that people in one treatment arm have fewer symptoms than in the non-treatment arm of a study ... if you have also, demonstrated how it works (e.g. antibodies against a spike protein on the surface of a virus are produced then you can combine that with the knowledge from #1 above)
3) Do we know everything about it? Nope (by the way, we don't even fully understand how Tylenol works ... this is part of the reason that I love the intersection of medicine and research). Do we know that fewer people get sick. Yep. Have I personally read a large enough study to tell me whether a covid exposed individual after both doses of the vaccine has a) no viral load, b) a short time with a viral load, and/or c) a lower viral load ... not yet, but I am certain that the studies are underway ... notice that all of the possibilities that I am presenting involve less virus (combine 1 and 2)
4) To some points earlier in the thread ... from a community perspective, there are few important items that work together in an infectious disease ... a) how infectious is it (i.e. for one person with the disease, how many other people will become infected... this is sometimes referred to as "R"), b) how many of the infected people will get "sick" ... I am using "sick" in a hospital sense here, which means enough to worry a doctor ... I am being purposely vague here because the appropriate list varies with disease, but I believe that we can all agree that death, long-term need for intubation, and cardiac failure can be included on this list ... so from a community health perspective either decrease the rate of infection and/or decrease the number of infected people who get "sick" ... fyi "R" for covid is greater than 1, which means that on average more than 1 person becomes infected for 1 person currently infected ... this is one of the more difficult problems with covid at a community level ... luckily R is only slightly larger than 1 which means that with a relatively small decrease in infection rate that the prevalence (number of carriers) should start to decrease
5) combine 3 and 4 ... and ask yourself why so many doctors are excitedly getting the vaccine despite not being high risk (the appointments for the first wave of vaccinations at my hospital were filled in less than 4 hours) ... no we are not being mandated to do so
6) Please take your advice from well trained and educated medical professionals. Please make your personal decision based off of what is best for you, what is best for those you care about and spend time with, and our community as a whole

... almost forgot the standard disclaimer that is part of any research talk ... I have no financial conflict of interest regarding the treatments discussed above

Now back to the part of this forum that I find joy from... thank you all for that ... and that is why I put the time and thought into the post above after a long day of patient care

Thank you for all you do.

 

[danielspivey]

Got my second dose (moderna) last Tuesday, woke up Wednesday sick as crap. Finally back to normal Sunday. I see COVID lungs several times a day at work, I’m telling you, you don’t want them!

 

[ZTMAN]

Was able to get the first dose today. (Moderna). So far so good. Next dose is March 9

 

[jurfie]

b) how many of the infected people will get "sick" ... I am using "sick" in a hospital sense here, which means enough to worry a doctor ... I am being purposely vague here because the appropriate list varies with disease, but I believe that we can all agree that death, long-term need for intubation, and cardiac failure can be included on this list ... so from a community health perspective either decrease the rate of infection and/or decrease the number of infected people who get "sick" ... fyi "R" for covid is greater than 1, which means that on average more than 1 person becomes infected for 1 person currently infected ... this is one of the more difficult problems with covid at a community level ... luckily R is only slightly larger than 1 which means that with a relatively small decrease in infection rate that the prevalence (number of carriers) should start to decrease

And this sums up why we should get vaccinated. Whether it is a "true" vaccine or not is not the point. It may not eradicate the virus, but it should reduce the number of hospitalizations, therefore freeing up the healthcare industry to ensure resources are available to help those who need it. How many people like @Eazye 's mother are dying due to not receiving the treatment they would have outside of a pandemic? This is tragic.

Control the symptoms while the "true" vaccine is developed, tested and proven effective.

 

[Eazye]

And this sums up why we should get vaccinated. Whether it is a "true" vaccine or not is not the point. It may not eradicate the virus, but it should reduce the number of hospitalizations, therefore freeing up the healthcare industry to ensure resources are available to help those who need it. How many people like @Eazye 's mother are dying due to not receiving the treatment they would have outside of a pandemic? This is tragic.

Control the symptoms while the "true" vaccine is developed, tested and proven effective.

Exactly right. It’s not a vaccine, it’s teaching your body to fight it properly so you don’t experience anything beyond maybe minor symptoms. But, a metric on this pandemic that will never be captured is the damage done due to lack of care. Some are obvious but most impacts will be overlooked or go unnoticed. Also, with a spouse who works in the hospital, she experiences it first hand, the impact of the virus on the vulnerable and the impact on those who are too late to get proper care.

 

[Factoid]

Got my second Pfizer shot Monday (group 1A). Same as the first, slightly sore arm, nothing else.

 

[Mr._Bill]

I received my two doses of the Moderna vaccine last July and August. Ran a high fever about 12 hours after the second dose, and then back to normal after a day. Went in last week for one of the follow-up appointments. Got confirmation I was not in the Placebo group, and received my CDC Vaccine card. I suggest everyone get the vaccine shots, and also get a flu shot.

 

[5JeepsAz]

I received my two doses of the Moderna vaccine last July and August. Ran a high fever about 12 hours after the second dose, and then back to normal after a day. Went in last week for one of the follow-up appointments. Got confirmation I was not in the Placebo group, and received my CDC Vaccine card. I suggest everyone get the vaccine shots, and also get a flu shot.

Thank you for taking the risk for the rest of us. Six months out, are you by any chance still showing antibody's?

 

[Mr._Bill]

Thank you for taking the risk for the rest of us. Six months out, are you by any chance still showing antibody's?

I see the Endocrinologist every three months. I have had her include the Covid antibody test when I get my blood drawn at Quest. September and December were negative, the next one will be in March. I have not been exposed to anyone Covid positive, that I know of. The Clinical Trial doctor doesn't provide any of the results for the blood draws and testing they do, unless you test positive for Covid.

The way I understand it, the Covid vaccine prepares the body to fight the virus, if it is exposed. The Covid antibodies won't show in the blood until the body generates them while fighting the virus. This vaccine is not derived from the live virus, like the flu vaccine is.

 

[Murgatroid]

Indiana nurse here, being a private, in home nurse, I was not in the first round. They opened it up the for home nurses on Jan 8th, I got my first shot on the 16th and get my second this Sat. morning.

Other than a sore arm. No problems from second dose.

 

[5JeepsAz]

I see the Endocrinologist every three months. I have had her include the Covid antibody test when I get my blood drawn at Quest. September and December were negative, the next one will be in March. I have not been exposed to anyone Covid positive, that I know of. The Clinical Trial doctor doesn't provide any of the results for the blood draws and testing they do, unless you test positive for Covid.

The way I understand it, the Covid vaccine prepares the body to fight the virus, if it is exposed. The Covid antibodies won't show in the blood until the body generates them while fighting the virus. This vaccine is not derived from the live virus, like the flu vaccine is.

Thank you. Hope you stay well.

Someone had asymptomatic disease and is still testing positive for antibodies on the blood test but negative on the active covid virus tests. We are watching the life cycle of the antibodies like everyone else as far as when the blood test no longer shows antibodies after real infection.

I'm curious how to know, when vaccine needs a booster ... 3 mos, six? If vaccine doesn't show on those tests, how do we know it remains effective? Interesting.

I'm scheduled for my second dose in two weeks.

 

[Mr._Bill]

Thank you. Hope you stay well.

Someone had asymptomatic disease and is still testing positive for antibodies on the blood test but negative on the active covid virus tests. We are watching the life cycle of the antibodies like everyone else as far as when the blood test no longer shows antibodies after real infection.

I'm curious how to know, when vaccine needs a booster ... 3 mos, six? If vaccine doesn't show on those tests, how do we know it remains effective? Interesting.

I'm scheduled for my second dose in two weeks.

I asked the doctor, when I was getting the CDC Vaccine card, if I was going to need a booster shot. She said they don't know, yet. If they don't say by August, I may go in for another round.

 

[5JeepsAz]

Got my second vaccine last week. No symptoms. Arm soreness.

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