Gladiator in snow - disappointment?

[21RG]

that isnt an abs problem. Thats a tire problem. Abs activates when a wheel locks. A wheel locks when the pressure of the brake pads against the rotor exceeds what friction the tire can sustain against the traction surface; and a skid starts. The abs is trying to stop the skid......

It is an ABS issue and you are correct in what you are saying. The abs on this particular vehicle is extremely sensitive, the same is for the traction control. Toyota 4runners are simmilar, but worse and one of the main reasons I traded it off.

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[21RG]

ive spent time a couple different places, and Im still doing it. Bragg and DC predominately. Where/what do you instruct? Where/what were you racing before hand?

a km3 is siped, so its not as bad as the old km2’s, but its still worse than a good AT for a snowy road. Im seeing a bunch pics and a lot of talk about being buried near the frame rails on a snowy trail off road; which is not the sense i get from the OP on what he is trying to accomplish. If he is trying to get up a paved driveway that got slick, turning off the TC with an empty bed is the absolute worst advice to give him, especially if his driveway is adjacent to a ditch or a highway. Im not saying that to be a dick; rather trying to make sure the OP’s question gets answered. Beating down the trail wasnt how i interpreted his question.

But maybe one of us is mis-interpreting what the OP is actually asking, and it could be me. ??‍ Down a big snow drifty trail; yeah. Air down and turn the tc off and try to get some spin and buoyancy. That would not be my advice for pavement/public roads, as what we are trying to do is different.

Cool, I use to live in MDW and moved up to PA once I retired. Got in with a buddy and did a lot of mobility/track driving and did some of the Chump car racing, Before that O'neils summer and winter courses, and the other usual mobility/track courses. Started as a kid racing dirt bikes and into off-road in NM. I am actually branching out on my own guide and off-road training in PA. Somewhat tired of gov contracting, but I do like working with friends in the community and seeing the younger generation.

You effectively cleared up a lot of information. My post was mainly about the computer controls and how they affect driving which translates to what the OP was saying.

Manufacturers are heavy on traction control for some reason. They push it as a capability. Just hit the mud/snow/off road button... In my opinion it creates frustration and confusion just as the OP mentioned. Be it on a trail or somewhat icy driveway the traction control added to the problem. The computer only senses certain things and applies what it is programmed to do. They do work great on roads and actually save people from crashing especially when people are distracted or just oblivious to the environment.

My point on airing down was specific to the comment "if you have BFG's theres the problem". Any tire can be a problem as most people set tire pressure once and keep it that way. Tire pressure should be adjusted for weather, weight and type of driving you are doing. No you don't want 23/20psi for main roads at speed in nice weather, but you also don't 38psi for snow and ice covered roads. I change my tire pressure on a regular basis. Once you start doing this, you will notice the change in handling of the vehicle and have a better appreciation for what you need based on the environment/weather.

 

[Mjolnir]

Yes, traction control doesnt turn off when you engage 4 but i was thinking that later

Hold the TC button and it SHOULD override and turn off.

 

[stickshifter]

I cant wait until we get all the Michael Schumaker‘s and Rhys Millen’s here talking about how they disable TC and ABS in the winter time because they, quote, “know how to drive” and quote “been doing this a long time”

the suspects:
- cars didnt have it when i learned how to drive, so i dont need that black magic shit and the laws of physics dont exist

- im such a good driver from all the fucking around I did in the desert/snow/trail, i know what a car is going to do and how to defy the laws of physics

- you have to know what to do if tc/abs fail, so just turn it off all the time and pray the laws of physics dont proper fuck you

- just because you have 200+ hrs of pro driver training from baja 500 winners, formula 1 drivers, Nurburgring circuit racers and testers, and a formula 4 racing license doesnt mean shit, my dad and the highschool parking lot taught me what i need to know

this thread is gonna get GOOD. Grab a beer. I promise in just a few pages you’ll see all those things.

This was funny, and a pretty good summary I get your main point, which is that modern traction control is a great safety feature. However, you seem to think that traction control is always better than a human driver, and that is simply not true. There are times, both on road and off-road, where traction control creates real problems. Folks have already discussed how traction control can limit one's options off-road, so I'll just describe how it can be a problem on-road. You hit a little patch of ice and traction control kills the throttle; you pass through the icy patch and need to accelerate to get out of the intersection; you still have no control over the throttle, and you are left waiting for the computer to give you back control. In that situation, traction control is a liability, not an asset.

Lastly, if you have spent years driving a vehicle in snow without traction control, you do learn how the vehicle handles, and how to regain control when you start to slide - but this does not mean that you believe that you can defy the laws of physics; rather, it means you have learned a healthy respect for the laws of physics. Such a person - if one should exist - might also recognize that traction control can apply braking force to individual wheels in a way that he cannot, and that this can be quite helpful - if not decidedly less engaging.

 

[KurtP]

Cool, I use to live in MDW and moved up to PA once I retired. Got in with a buddy and did a lot of mobility/track driving and did some of the Chump car racing, Before that O'neils summer and winter courses, and the other usual mobility/track courses. Started as a kid racing dirt bikes and into off-road in NM. I am actually branching out on my own guide and off-road training in PA. Somewhat tired of gov contracting, but I do like working with friends in the community and seeing the younger generation.

You effectively cleared up a lot of information. My post was mainly about the computer controls and how they affect driving which translates to what the OP was saying.

Manufacturers are heavy on traction control for some reason. They push it as a capability. Just hit the mud/snow/off road button... In my opinion it creates frustration and confusion just as the OP mentioned. Be it on a trail or somewhat icy driveway the traction control added to the problem. The computer only senses certain things and applies what it is programmed to do. They do work great on roads and actually save people from crashing especially when people are distracted or just oblivious to the environment.

My point on airing down was specific to the comment "if you have BFG's theres the problem". Any tire can be a problem as most people set tire pressure once and keep it that way. Tire pressure should be adjusted for weather, weight and type of driving you are doing. No you don't want 23/20psi for main roads at speed in nice weather, but you also don't 38psi for snow and ice covered roads. I change my tire pressure on a regular basis. Once you start doing this, you will notice the change in handling of the vehicle and have a better appreciation for what you need based on the environment/weather.

The KM2’s were some of the worst tires out for winter driving; but yes my answer could have been more nuanced. i would agree that TC should not negate the understanding of vehicle dynamics and that it should be instead exactly what it is called: a driver aid.

i find this question comes up a lot, and inevitably the thread descends to what my earlier post was. A dude asks a vehicle dynamics question about on-road reduced traction surfaces; and pretty soon gets some version of: “man fuck that shit! Pull the fuses for TC and ABS and fucking floor it!” For an answer, which I dont think is good advice.

There are more than a few people who dont understand that spinning the wheels to gain forward traction comes with reduced stability on the road; so my advice is to (on road) not make it the choice of first resort. On the trail you generally arent in a place where sliding into a car full of family and kids or snap oversteer into a vehicle roll over is going to happen but it happens on road all the time. I cannot put into words how much rage i would have if someone who “knew how to drive” crashed into my vehicle on account of forcibly deactivating TC and ABS.

if that makes me crazy, then i guess im crazy.

 

[KurtP]

This was funny, and a pretty good summary I get your main point, which is that modern traction control is a great safety feature. However, you seem to think that traction control is always better than a human driver, and that is simply not true. There are times, both on road and off-road, where traction control creates real problems. Folks have already discussed how traction control can limit one's options off-road, so I'll just describe how it can be a problem on-road. You hit a little patch of ice and traction control kills the throttle; you pass through the icy patch and need to accelerate to get out of the intersection; you still have no control over the throttle, and you are left waiting for the computer to give you back control. In that situation, traction control is a liability, not an asset.

Lastly, if you have spent years driving a vehicle in snow without traction control, you do learn how the vehicle handles, and how to regain control when you start to slide - and this does not mean that you believe that you can defy the laws of physics; rather, it means you have learned a healthy respect for the laws of physics. Such a person - if one should exist - might also recognize that traction control can apply braking force to individual wheels in a way that he cannot, and that this can be quite helpful - if not decidedly less engaging.

an overall fairly balanced view.

Re tc better than human input; i dont think that at all, and i dont think my video conveyed that at all. I think Tc should be taken for exactly what its called: a driver aid. there are times it should be turned off, but it needs to come with an understanding of what compromise youre making and what is happening in the drivetrain. I also dont advocate for it as an option of first resort on road.

I agree that learning to controlling a skid ISand important thing to understand. And after spending hours and hours on skid pads testing this; it is rare you can do it faster with tc and abs disabled.

in your example of the intersection, momentum should carry you through. If not, id go left foot brake before TC disable; and id still left foot brake. we still have to find grip on a tire to move forward....spinning a tire faster works great when your scrambling and grabbing AND getting buoyancy. If the tire is just slipping, spinning faster isnt going to fix anything. theres a reason why the throttle response gets blunted at the pedal when going to 4lo.....

 

[cgflyer]

Interesting, I always thought MTs would give you more traction than ATs in snow, but it looks like the BFG MTs aren't severe snow service rated.

snow traction is actually better when you have snow in your lugs. The snow in the lugs sticks to the snow on the ground and it essentially freezes to each other for traction...MT will shed the snow from the lugs and not provide the traction you need. Legit snow tires on a front wheel drive vehicle do exactly what they are supposed to.

 

[21RG]

The KM2’s were some of the worst tires out for winter driving; but yes my answer could have been more nuanced. i would agree that TC should not negate the understanding of vehicle dynamics and that it should be instead exactly what it is called: a driver aid.

i find this question comes up a lot, and inevitably the thread descends to what my earlier post was. A dude asks a vehicle dynamics question about on-road reduced traction surfaces; and pretty soon gets some version of: “man fuck that shit! Pull the fuses for TC and ABS and fucking floor it!” For an answer, which I dont think is good advice.

Difficult to convey the full picture in a short paragraph based on a single question and it make sense to everyone or to one person.

I have a pretty solid section on computer aided systems and how and why they kick in. I also demonstrate a lot of this and the negative effects.

I follow up with a very significant section that covers the brake, throttle and steering and demonstrate this as well.

In the end, a semi-skilled driver works better than a passive/oblivious driver relying on computers to manage their commute or off-road adventure.

At the same time, I do not advocate pulling fuses or heavy modification for a vehicle driven on a public road.

 

[BAT]

Hey we are at 4 Pages now

 

[MrZappo]

Hey we are at 4 Pages now

Allow me to summarize for your convenience:

1) Gladiator not great in snow maybe
2) Its because of traction control
3) turn it off*


*If it still sucks, your probably not turning it off correctly, RTFM.

 

[21RG]

Hey we are at 4 Pages now

I'm watching GME and AMC stock, lets shoot for 1,000 pages.....

Allow me to summarize for your convenience:

1) Gladiator not great in snow maybe
2) Its because of traction control
3) turn it off*


*If it still sucks, your probably not turning it off correctly, RTFM.

Gladiator is great in snow minus the TC and ABS.

Hopefully the manufacturer monitors these websites and realizes too much computers is a bad thing.

The same thing is talked about on all the other forums and there is a significant effort to bypass the computer controls. From novice/first time wheelers and owners to extremely experienced drivers. Toyota, Ram, Jeep, JT, Ford, Chevy, it always becomes a topic of discussion.

I take issue with Jeep and Ram as they have off-road specific vehicles; The Power Wagon and Rubicon with factory lockers and other capabilities that no other manufacturer is producing. Then they add all the computer gizmos which reduces the effectiveness.

I can back this up and I am willing to demonstrate at any time.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

The traction control in the WK2 and the Silverado work excellent. They'd both literally walk up slick or snow-packed or icy driveways (which are both uphill in our case, the one to our main garage and the one to my shop where I have two of our vehicles parked)
I didn't even engage 2H in either and you can hear and feel things work. You simply used mild to moderate pressure on the gas and they'd basically walk up the driveway. The WK2 I don't even have to plow for and my Silverado was parked back behind where I had to use my neighbor's drive to get to the road - up hill, winding and about 220 feet of unplowed driveway. (our main drive my wife uses with her WK2 is about 130 feet mostly uphill)
Yet my JT will literally spin until it decides to get some traction.
In snow it's fine - and the Falken A/T tires are IMO great "snow tires". HUGE improvement over the H/T mine came with.
Yet I can make the rear wheels spin easily on the JT. Taking off from an intersection where the sands of winter snow plows gathers, give it a bit too much and you can hear a tire spin in the sand. It makes me wonder if the computer is just slow to respond? Or the LSD has both wheels spinning the same speed so the system doesn't see a problem (although the front wheels would not be turning)
Since I seem to be the only one with this issue, I assume it's an issue with THIS truck and not the JT in general. That's my only complaint right now - it WILL allow the rear tires to spin in sand on on slick snow pack if you are stopped and trying to carefully take off.

Otherwise, once I changed to the A/T tires, it's a night and day difference. In snow - it will go through my unplowed drive, 7-8" of snow, without hesitation, no need to disable anything.
Our last blizzard a few days ago left us with snow anywhere from 7" to 12" and more in places. I took off before all the roads were plowed.
A normal 30 minute drive was 40 minutes and the truck did just fine. I had it in 4H most of the time but I was never worried, I could feel the difference with these tires - it was obvious. Even when I shifted back to 2 because it was only 50-70% snow pack and snow in places, I didn't feel it slip or slide and I kept on moving not far off the speed limit.
I left all controls enabled.
I'm very happy with the Falken A/T tires in our type of snow.

 

[Kilroy1941]

The TC is much more sensitive than my renegade trailhawk had been. Gladiator senses slip going up hill or on a turn it pretty much kills power for two to three seconds. Took off traction control and it powers up the driveway fine. I also have snows on and 210 lbs of sand bags in the back

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Old-fashioned but effective traction control...........

 

[KurtP]

Im genuinely ready to learn and I want to see some demonstrations.

Lets keep this framed within the OP’s question, and not frolicking down the snow covered trail.

Leave whatever winter highway tire pressure you drive around on (for me thats 37), find a road that has a snow packed hill that the truck cant get up in 4hi with the tc on; turn it off and put your boot to the throttle; then do it the way im telling you to do it and lets see the difference on video. Video of the truck going up said hill all 3 versions, and view of the steering wheel inputs as its happening. Let’s see which is faster and which is more controlled.

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