Jeep v. Ineos Grenadier

[Heater]

From what I gather, that's exactly why this Grenadier exists, because the CEO was so disappointed in the new LR Defenders.

I don't get the controversy though. The new Defenders don't look the part but they're every bit the off-roader the originals are.

Just a quick response and not to turn this into a Land Rover forum - I’m not so sure the new Defenders are purpose-built like the originals. Yes they can play the part but I doubt they can hold up to the abuse and maintainability as they were designed for, and be able to be disassembled in the field and put back together. It’s a luxury brand now. I’d like to see one hold up to a Rhinoceros hit on Wild Kingdom. Just saying. I don’t own one but having driven them in the original design they were stout.

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[HooliganActual]

‘It’s no where near as large as the Grand Wagoneer and much more along the lines of the 110. It fit very well along some of the tight trails we went on.

I just happened to watch this guy's review of the Ineos Grenadier yesterday. Somewhere in this video he shows the Grenadier and a 110 nose to nose for comparison.

He also got to drive it on road and seemed pretty impressed with it's road manners.

 

[smlobx]

…I don't get the controversy though. The new Defenders don't look the part but they're every bit the off-roader the originals are.

There are many people around the world (me included) who would disagree with that statement.

 

[Heater]

There are many people around the world (me included) who would disagree with that statement.

Exactly my intent with my statement.

 

[Barnaby’sdad]

Cool feature. Really curious to see what these end up going for. At $70K or so, I think they’d sell like hotcakes.

Edit: That’s a pretty legit towing capacity if that’s accurate. Really curious to see how this goes. Maybe they‘ll come up with an other than BMW engine option at some point.

 

[smlobx]

^^ they have a diesel version that will be available in other parts of the world and are working on an EV version…or so I’ve been told.

 

[FLGladiator]

Beautiful Defender G Wagon vibes.

 

[BourbonRunner]

Cool feature. Really curious to see what these end up going for. At $70K or so, I think they’d sell like hotcakes.

Edit: That’s a pretty legit towing capacity if that’s accurate. Really curious to see how this goes. Maybe they‘ll come up with an other than BMW engine option at some point.

The BMW B58 is possibly the best forced induction straight 6 that company has ever built. It is such a strong, reliable motor that Toyota puts it and the 4-cyl B48 in the Supra. BMW struck gold with the modular motors and its spawned a variety of gas and diesel (Bx7) motors that are all very well regarded.

It would not surprise me if in the future Ineos throws a B57 diesel in the Grenadier for the ROW market, it would be a very easy swap since they're the same bell housing, etc.

A friend has been on their advance team putting this through its paces. He's very experienced in the overlanding world and has said flat out they designed this thing specifically for that purpose and not for mall crawling. Everything that Sir Jim directed his designers to implement is purpose driven and refined to be as simple and reliable as possible.

Just like the original Defender.

 

[smlobx]

Pricing and the configuration are up!
Base price starts at just over $71K and nicely configured about $79K

Sounds like to Country Club / Polo crowd…


https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/us/the-vehicle/vehicle-configurator

But then again…if the Wrangler with the AEV package is over $100K than who am I to say….

 

[Hristo]

I like what they're offering, but at a base price of $91k CAD, nope I'm out. The value isn't there.

 

[SpeedNeed]

Website has a button to “register interest” for the pickup version:
”Register your interest and we’ll let you know as soon as the Pick-Up is available.”

 

[hjdca]

The BMW B58 is possibly the best forced induction straight 6 that company has ever built. It is such a strong, reliable motor that Toyota puts it and the 4-cyl B48 in the Supra. BMW struck gold with the modular motors and its spawned a variety of gas and diesel (Bx7) motors that are all very well regarded.

It would not surprise me if in the future Ineos throws a B57 diesel in the Grenadier for the ROW market, it would be a very easy swap since they're the same bell housing, etc.

A friend has been on their advance team putting this through its paces. He's very experienced in the overlanding world and has said flat out they designed this thing specifically for that purpose and not for mall crawling. Everything that Sir Jim directed his designers to implement is purpose driven and refined to be as simple and reliable as possible.

Just like the original Defender.

I really, really like it. Love the old Defender vibe, and of course, love the straight axles. I am also an original owner of an old E46 M3 straight six with 230K miles and the motor has been bullet proof and burns no oil. BWM Straight Six are great motors. I believe the E46 straight six was one of the best motors ever built world wide.

 

[pnwadventures]

Needs a tire on the hood

 

[BourbonRunner]

I really, really like it. Love the old Defender vibe, and of course, love the straight axles. I am also an original owner of an old E46 M3 straight six with 230K miles and the motor has been bullet proof and burns no oil. BWM Straight Six are great motors. I believe the E46 straight six was one of the best motors ever built world wide.

Pretty much. The B58 is the spiritual successor to the M54, we should ignore any of the n-series motors.

BTW: I'm an e46 330ci ZHP owner, of which is currently in the shop with a mystery SES but that's the life of a 20 year old German car with 20 year old German electronics. At one point I had an e34 with the M50, too. And it hit over 240K miles when I sold it.

 

[stickshifter]

This is a bit dated now (I'm not on this forum very often), but maybe someone will get something out of it. All the best!

I went to the Grenadier driving event at the Ram Off-Road Park in Colorado Springs on Friday April 21, 2023. I got there early, and they let me drive the course before my appointment, and I was the only car on the course (which was pretty cool), and then they let me drive it a second time during my scheduled appointment.

Here are my impressions, which my, or may not, be relevant to you

Positive impressions:

1. The staff was great; they were professional, knowledgeable, and friendly.

2. The course was good - but not great. There was a 35-37 degree side-slope, a couple of short steep hills to both climb and descend, some tight turns, but nothing very technical. It was a more challenging course than most manufacturers would turn you loose on, but if you regularly drive off-road in Colorado, this was about a 4 on the OnX Off Road scale from 0-10. We often drive on roads rated 5 or 6 to get to the high summer trailheads. I drove harder trails when I had a Wrangler on 35-inch tires, but now I'm in a 2017 Tacoma, with a 2-inch lift, and 33-inch tires.

3. The Grenadier handled it all very well, and felt very planted - especially on the side slope. This is a real off-road vehicle. Approach angle 35.5˚, departure angle 36.1˚, breakover angle is 28.2˚, ground clearance 10.4” to the bottom of the rear diff, 115-inch wheelbase. The axle ratio is 4.10, and the crawl ratio is 54 to 1. Solid axles front and rear, full-time four wheel drive with a locking center differential on all models. Optional equipment includes locking front and rear differentials.

4. The suspension is fantastic. Wheel travel / suspension articulation is really good and the springs and shocks work well together to mitigate rough terrain. The Grenadier is comfortable and quiet off-road. Without actually being able to measure, I would guess that the Grenadier has similar articulation as a Wrangler Rubicon with its front ant-sway bar connected, but less than the Rubicon with the anti-sway bar disconnected.

5. The steering felt precise off-road. We were in 4-low the whole time, and never got up to speed, so I cannot speak to high-speed off-roading, or on-road driving characteristics.

6. In low-range, the B58 (3.0 Inline 6, gas engine) has excellent low-end torque; the 3.0 diesel is not coming to America. It would have been good to see how it felt in high-range, but that was not allowed. The engine and transmission worked well together in low-range, and the throttle was easy to modulate. While max horsepower and torque are no where near class leading (282 hp, 332 lb/ft. torque), and are not great for a vehicle of this weight (around 5,800 pounds), forced induction will provide better driving dynamics than a naturally aspirated engine with similar max-power numbers. Forced induction will also help the Grenadier at altitude. Despite its weight, I would guess that the Grenadier feels more powerful in the mountains of Colorado than a Wrangler with the 3.6 Pentastar - but it won't be a rocket-ship.

7. The Grenadier is really solid.
(a) The frame resembles that of a heavy duty pickup (e.g. Ford F250, Ram 2500);
(b) The running gear (tie rod, drag link, track bar) resemble what you would see on a solid front axle Landcruiser - much beefier than a Jeep Wrangler, but not quite as stout as a heavy duty truck;
(c) Likewise, the axles are beefier than a Jeep Wrangler, but less stout than a heavy duty truck.

8. All moving parts in the body are aluminum (hood, four side doors, two rear doors). All the doors feel well-made, and close with a satisfying feel, that speaks to how well-sealed they are against the elements.

9. I thought the Recaro seats were super-comfortable (obviously, “comfort” is highly subjective).

Not-so positive impressions:

1. We were not allowed to engage the front and rear differential locks, nor were we allowed to shift out of 4-low. These were prototypes, not production vehicles.

2. Given its clear intention to be a rugged 4x4, the Grenadier has good - but not great - ground clearance. Top off-road models from Jeep and Ford can be equipped from the factory with 35-inch tires (with corrected gearing, no rubbing, a full-size spare tire, and a factory warranty). And now you can buy a Bronco on 37s from the factory. I understand that the vision for the Grenadier is rugged overlander, not rock crawler, but many of us will want to use it for a bit of both. Most drivers were hitting the rear differential on a rock that wasn't very big. The Ineos guides requested that people either take it very slow, or place a tire on the rock (as opposed to straddling it). Placing tires on top of rocks is basic off-roading, but on harder trails, you need better ground clearance. I am not a hard-core rock crawler, but we regularly travel through terrain with much larger rocks than on this test course. If the Grenadier were more easily modified, this would not be a concern. However, the Grenadier will not take well to larger tires for the following reasons: (a) short control arms, (b) lack of re-gearing options for the Carraro axles, and (c) a split rear door that will not accommodate a tire larger than 33-inches in diameter. Some - or all - of this may get addressed in the aftermarket (if Ineos can sell enough to make the aftermarket profitable).

3. Engine braking going down steep hills is good, but not great. For my style of off-road driving, I would prefer a lower, low range. The Grenadier has a low range of 2.5:1, whereas as a Wrangler Rubicon has a low-range of 4:1. The Rubicon transfer case is better-suited to technical off-road driving in Colorado. The Grenadier transfer case will be better for sand, and higher speed off-roading while still needing low-range.

4. For an off-road vehicle - the gear selector is awful. The haptics do not provide the simple and tactile feedback required in a true off-road vehicle. A gear selector in a 4x4 needs to (a) move, so that shifting is positive, and can be verified by both feel and sight, (b) positively engage with gears, and (c) not be prone to shifting out of gear with a moderate tap or bump - which can happen while off-roading. The BMW gear selector fails on every count. To put it into park, you press a button on the gear selector; nothing moves, and there is no confirmation of being in park, other than a little light on the dash. To put it in drive, you press a button and pull back; the selector pivots backward, then returns to its regular position. There is no visible sign of what gear you are in, other than a little light on the dash. To go into "manual mode" you tap it to the left - but again, it pivots, but does not move over to the left - so there is no good feedback. In manual mode, you can up-shift by tapping rearwards, or down-shift by tapping forwards. If your tap to the left did not actually put the vehicle in manual mode, then - if you forward tap (thinking you are downshifting) - you will put the truck into neutral, and you will suddenly lose all engine braking. The gear selector completely fails to match other components in the Grenadier - which are rugged, and positive in their engagement. It is also a bit bizarre that this electronic gear selector is sandwiched between a manual handbrake, and a manual lever for the transfer case. The Jeep Wrangler and Gladiator use a very similar ZF transmission as the Grenadier, but have a far superior gear selector (in my opinion). The Jeep shifter moves and then positively engages whatever gear you select, and moves when you shift to manual mode with a noticeable and reassuring thunk. You can easily use the Jeep shifter without looking at it (important when off-road). For me - the BMW shifter is a disaster.

5. Tim (the Ineos representative from England, who was in charge of discussing the undercarriage), said that the axles were semi-float, not full-float (see: Full-Floating vs Semi-Floating Axles). For 2024, Jeep is offering full-float axles as an option in the Wrangler, and all heavy-duty trucks have full-float axles, so this was a disappointment, and a bit of a surprise given the hefty curb-weight of the Grenadier (about 5,800 pounds), and its relatively high payload (about 1,800 pounds).

6. This is a minor issue, but a lot of the reviews I read raved about how the HVAC controls are “big and chunky”. To me, they are not that big, and do not stick-out that much from the dash, and will not be that easily adjusted with winter gloves (and there is no heated steering wheel). Here is an example of HVAC controls, from a Toyota 4-Runner, that can be easily adjusted wearing winter gloves; the photo also provides an example of a gear selector that moves, and positively engages into gear:

7. The footrest intrusion on the right-hand footwell is not as bad as some online reports indicate, but it is far from ideal. If the passenger wants to place their left foot on the footrest, it is quite comfortable - for a while - but obviously not symmetrical (see first photo, below). However, if the passenger wants to stretch out both legs - which is necessary on long drives - they cannot sit straight. Instead, you have to pivot in the seat (to the right), but then your whole body is off-kilter in the seat (at least this was true for me, at 6' 2" tall). That was my experience - yours may differ. Below are two pics from the passenger footwell in the Grenadier (brown leather boots), and one pic from the passenger footwell in my 2017 Tacoma (grey boots with green laces).

For the passenger, the Tacoma is much more comfortable for long drives. Of course, the Grenadier is far superior to the Tacoma in almost every way - this is not a Tacoma/Grenadier comparison - but its also twice the price. The Grenadier starts at $73,100. Spec it with front and rear lockers, 265/70/R17 BFG KO2 tires, alloy wheels, a winch (made by Red Winch, which is the only winch that currently fits the Grenadier, but the rope length is about half that of a Warn equivalent), heated leather seats, and a raised air intake, and you are at $85,000. And this is on tires that are 31.6 inches tall (from the factory). Until the aftermarket steps in, the largest tire that will fit is a 33. Anything larger will require a suspension lift to avoid rubbing, but the control arms are so short that you might need to do a long-arm kit to accommodate a 35. Then you have the issue of how to carry a spare, since a tire larger than 33 on the rear door will prevent you from opening either of the rear doors. In stock configuration, there is about one inch of clearance between the 31.6 inch spare tire - which is mounted on the large door - and the small door. The problem is that the small door must be opened first, before you can open the larger door, so a bigger tire will block the small door from opening. See photos below:

Here are some specs on the Grenadier. For the petrol (gas) engine, 450 Nm of torque = 332 lb/ft and 210 Kw = 286 horse power.

Lots of really great stuff going on with the Grenadier, but also some issues - depending on your end use. It is also quite pricey, and the dealer network is going to be pretty minimal here in the U.S.

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