Loose Steering?

[JP1]

Forgive the quick cellphone diagram.

So this is looking down at the axle.
Black is the axle and blue is factory size tires with exhageration of toe in.
With red I have shown what larger tires does to the angle. 20* of toe in for blue tires is nowhere near the same as 20* of toe in for the red tires.

I have never seen an alignment machine that took oversize tires into account since even the ones that strap to the tire are still setting the flange toe to the factory spec which results in too much toe for over size tires. Go measure it I'm willing to bet you are much closer to 1/4 in toe in than the 1/16th to 1/8th that jeeps tend to work best with.

The #1 symptom of too much toe in is very small inputs to the steering wheel turn into too much correction on the road.

Imagine it this way. With too much toe in one tire is already turned. A light input turns it even further.

This is kinda hard to explain via forum if I messed it up let me know I'll figure out a better way to word it.

Sorry Professor
but I disagree.
These alignment machines clamp on the wheels and measure angle in degrees, not inches.
FOR TOE: tire size should not matter.
OK, I stuck my weenie out there,
WHO's RIGHT?


BTW: I absolutely LOVE the scientific diagram.

Sponsored

 

[Oscar Indy]

Sorry Professor
but I disagree.
These alignment machines clamp on the wheels and measure angle in degrees, not inches.
FOR TOE: tire size should not matter.
OK, I stuck my weenie out there,
WHO's RIGHT?

God damnit you're gonna make me get my laptop

 

[JP1]

I'm going to bed, see ya tomorrow.

 

[Oscar Indy]

I'm going to bed, see ya tomorrow.

If this doesn't explain it I don't know how else to help.
The basic gist is the further forward the leading edge is the closer the tires will be together if using factory degree setting. SO use 1/8th in narrower on the front to replicate factory toe in.

 

[JOKER8R]

I do have a better than average understanding of mechanics, my question was directed to how much toe in degree was the 1/8” you suggested and I understand the longer the 2 angles the closer an intersecting point will get resulting in more actual toe.

So you are both right, the actual degree stays the same but with the larger tires it makes it more toe with the same degree. I get what you are both saying.

Also after watching the alignment guy adjust the toe it doesn’t look so simple to do in the garage

 

[Oscar Indy]

I do have a better than average understanding of mechanics, my question was directed to how much toe in degree was the 1/8” you suggested and I understand the longer the 2 angles the closer an intersecting point will get resulting in more actual toe.

So you are both right, the actual degree stays the same but with the larger tires it makes it more toe with the same degree. I get what you are both saying.

Also after watching the alignment guy adjust the toe it doesn’t look so simple to do in the garage

I honestly couldn't tell you because no tire is true to size. No 37 is a true 37 so figuring out what degrees makes 1/8th is outside my skill set.

But I have don't full alignments with nothing more than a tape measure.
On a lightly lifted jeep with fixed control arms it's really easy because you only have one adjustment point you can make.

Here is a quicky video

 

[JOKER8R]

“UPDATE” - made a trip from Indy to Chicago and back. Aired the tires to 37psi before I left, drove great no issues but I kept finding myself expecting some wander then I lowered to 34psi before I came home and it was even better, basically forgot there was an issue before. I’m still gonna tweak the tire pressure and toe and install a steering stabilizer at some point but it’s my opinion the wander is caused by improper alignment, tire pressure and possible some under torqued suspension & steering bolts.

 

[jrf]

but it’s my opinion the wander is caused by improper alignment, tire pressure and possible some under torqued suspension & steering bolts.

I'm 100% sure my dealer did not check alignment or the torque on steering components. They are convinced that "that's just how all Jeeps are the drive terrible." yes my dealer is telling me that the new Jeep I just purchased just drives like crap. Funny I didn't see that in the brochure I picked up. Nor the did the sales guy say, "Hey, BTW, know that these jeeps wander and drive terrible" It's frustrating. While every part of the mechanic in me wants to climb under the Jeep, re-torque the bolts and check the alignment...I also feel like that's ridiculous especially if the fix is that easy!!! Why the heck wouldn't the dealer just do that and make a customer happy?

With your case and oversize tires I can understand why you did. I'll be on the phone with Jeep today. Please anyone that gets updates directly from Jeep or their dealer please post back here.

 

[JOKER8R]

I'm 100% sure my dealer did not check alignment or the torque on steering components. They are convinced that "that's just how all Jeeps are the drive terrible." yes my dealer is telling me that the new Jeep I just purchased just drives like crap. Funny I didn't see that in the brochure I picked up. Nor the did the sales guy say, "Hey, BTW, know that these jeeps wander and drive terrible" It's frustrating. While every part of the mechanic in me wants to climb under the Jeep, re-torque the bolts and check the alignment...I also feel like that's ridiculous especially if the fix is that easy!!! Why the heck wouldn't the dealer just do that and make a customer happy?

With your case and oversize tires I can understand why you did. I'll be on the phone with Jeep today. Please anyone that gets updates directly from Jeep or their dealer please post back here.

I went for a test drive when I took delivery of mine and already knew of the issues many were having, I did not feel the wandering till I got on the highway and headed home. I did mention to the dealer that the steering wheel wasn’t centered and I received a quick and sharp response “That’s a Jeep thing” right then and there I knew nothing I would say mattered. When I took delivery mine was completely stock and was absolutely terrible on the interstate, basically anything over 40mph was dangerous. I was terrified of on coming traffic or passing any vehicles on the interstate. All I can say is after getting it aligned, tightening the suspension and steering linkage and adjusting air pressure it drives like you would expect, I am 200% confident in driving it anywhere and in any condition. All I can say is start with what others and I have done and see how it feels. I chose to have my alignment done at an independent shop as I didn’t wanna deal with being told “It’s a Jeep thing”. I would also recommend insisting on a close to exact toe measurement as possible ( which ever number you choose) and not within an accepted tolerance.

 

[jrf]

I have an appointment next week to take it back. My local Jeep dealer has a regional service manager(my words not exactly sure of the title) that will be in town. Hopefully get a chance to discuss with him. Thanks to @JeepCares as I don't think my dealer would have followed up like this.

 

[jrf]

The complaints an NHTSA are starting to pile up:

https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2020/JEEP/GLADIATOR/PU%252FCC/4WD#complaints

 

[NateSamJT20]

I think there are several issues with the Gladiators. I think some of it is suspension parts being too loose, some need alignments, some need new steering boxes, some need the pcm rebooted or Electrical input adjusted, or some just have defective parts from the get go that need replacing. All of which is ridiculous for such an expensive vehicle.

I also think a lot of people, myself included, are maybe not describing the issue correctly. In my case, I initially called it “loose steering”. But it’s not so much loose and not really wandering on a straight flat surface, but in my case it’s just almost 2” of dead nothing on either side of center that causes the steering issues. I know others are describing theirs correctly.

I have yet to take it to a dealership, after I got the “it’s a Jeep” over the phone from one service dept. so am having it looked at by an alignment shop next week to see what they can figured out.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I went for a test drive when I took delivery of mine and already knew of the issues many were having, I did not feel the wandering till I got on the highway and headed home. I did mention to the dealer that the steering wheel wasn’t centered and I received a quick and sharp response “That’s a Jeep thing” right then and there I knew nothing I would say mattered. When I took delivery mine was completely stock and was absolutely terrible on the interstate, basically anything over 40mph was dangerous. I was terrified of on coming traffic or passing any vehicles on the interstate. All I can say is after getting it aligned, tightening the suspension and steering linkage and adjusting air pressure it drives like you would expect, I am 200% confident in driving it anywhere and in any condition. All I can say is start with what others and I have done and see how it feels. I chose to have my alignment done at an independent shop as I didn’t wanna deal with being told “It’s a Jeep thing”. I would also recommend insisting on a close to exact toe measurement as possible ( which ever number you choose) and not within an accepted tolerance.

So basically it was off either from the factory or in transit and the dealer didn't do squat in a prep - everything should be checked in a prep - at least that's what used to be done. Not just unload, put the mats in and deliver it. Dealer prep should be more than take plastic off the fenders. All fluids, air pressures, and more, should be checked.

 

[JOKER8R]

So basically it was off either from the factory or in transit and the dealer didn't do squat in a prep - everything should be checked in a prep - at least that's what used to be done. Not just unload, put the mats in and deliver it. Dealer prep should be more than take plastic off the fenders. All fluids, air pressures, and more, should be checked.

As I agree it should be more than just a minor detail, mats and remove plastics etc, I don’t know what is or isn’t required however I do believe as do many others that when you mention an issue they shouldn’t just counter with “it’s a Jeep thing”.... maybe they are just so overwhelmed and can’t keep up and yes that no excuse to cut corners.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

As I agree it should be more than just a minor detail, mats and remove plastics etc, I don’t know what is or isn’t required however I do believe as do many others that when you mention an issue they shouldn’t just counter with “it’s a Jeep thing”.... maybe they are just so overwhelmed and can’t keep up and yes that no excuse to cut corners.

I suspect more than one person will appreciate your post and how you experienced an improvement like that. I know if mine ever comes in and if it has issues - I'll be keeping this in mind. The dealerships around here I have to work with aren't known for the best of troubleshooting ability unless it's something simple. Heck, one dealership couldn't even tell me what the aux switches were for and several other things I asked about. "gee, I dunno" and they left it open ended. That's why I ended up where I did because at least that one guy knew these trucks - even though they sell at list price and not a penny less and low-ball trade-ins. He knew the measurements, what things were for, how to operate pretty much everything - but you pay MSRP for everything, nothing thrown in and they cut under KBB pricing on trade-ins. If KBB is 18,000 trade-in value they'll be generous and offer you 16,000 for your trade.
Let's hope there's no trouble if/when mine comes in as I am not optimistic about dealers around here fixing anything.

Sponsored