Overland or Rubicon - Can't Decide

[WXman]

Not sure if that was for me, but towing is not my primary concern. Just another selling point for the Rubicon.

No I was sort of speaking to the guys who said they'd go Rubicon for the towing capability. I just wanted to point out that with a 1,000-1,100 lb max payload on both models, the towing capacity doesn't really matter because with people/gear onboard you can't get to 6,000 lbs. anyhow.

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[Bobzdar]

No I was sort of speaking to the guys who said they'd go Rubicon for the towing capability. I just wanted to point out that with a 1,000-1,100 lb max payload on both models, the towing capacity doesn't really matter because with people/gear onboard you can't get to 6,000 lbs. anyhow.

Where are you guys getting these numbers from? The advertised rubi payload is 1160, and my almost fully loaded rubi door sticker says 1148. With max trailer capacity of 7000lbs and 10% tongue weight, that still leaves 450lbs for passengers.

 

[eternus]

... Further, after seeing both models in person, I significantly prefer the look of the Rubicon.

This. I was on a lot recently and the Overlander is just so underwhelming if you're looking at it next to a Rubicon. The only case I can make against a Rubicon is the loss of a limited slip. I'm already leaning heavily towards a Sport S, as front/rear lockers are more than overkill... they're just undesired for 90% or more of my usage. (And for me, price is relevant... just because I have money doesn't mean I need to spend it.)

Some food for thought... most dealers, if they have Rubicon take-off parts, will sell them cheaper. When I bought my current JKU Sport I paid an extra $1k and got the tires/wheels that someone else didn't want. I plan to do that with the Gladiator as well. The suspension from a Rubicon is going to be coming off of trucks left and right... the cost of someone's low mile Rubicon suspension is running around $600 here on the forum. Again, I'll be looking to do that. At that point the only thing I'll be looking for is a slider/nerf bar solution. I'm waiting for AEV to release their armor before I get too worried about bumpers though.

One last comment about towing... beware those numbers. They're marketing numbers. Just because a Rubicon says 7k towing, realistically most folks will NOT be towing at that level... I tow a 3500 lb trailer behind my JKU with the same engine (though worse gearing) and I just accept that 65-70 is the normal speed unless I'm going down hill... and that going up a mountain is much slower.

 

[Tire Guy]

I was in the Overland camp to start with but as I started adding up the things I wanted to do I quickly got close to the Rubicon price. So I am now leaning heavily toward ordering the Rubicon. The two big items are tires and replacing the running boards. Not a fan of either on the Overland.

 

[WXman]

Where are you guys getting these numbers from? The advertised rubi payload is 1160, and my almost fully loaded rubi door sticker says 1148. With max trailer capacity of 7000lbs and 10% tongue weight, that still leaves 450lbs for passengers.

OK, let's say you've got a payload of 1,148 lbs. and towing rating of 7,000 lbs.

Let's say you're going camping. Rarely does a guy camp alone, so let's say you're going to take your family. Assuming a 200 lb. driver, 150 lb. spouse, and two kids with a total weight of 200 lbs, that's a total of 550 lbs. right?

So now you've got 598 lbs. of payload remaining, because the owners manual specifically states that the driver, passengers, cargo, and tongue weight all subtract from the payload.

So now IF you do not put anything else at all in the cargo box, and your trailer applies 10% of its weight to the tongue, you can tow a 5,980 lb. trailer.

If you add, let's say, 150 lbs. worth of camping gear into the bed of the truck, then you're left with 448 lbs. of payload which, at 10% tongue weight, would cap you at a 4,480 lb. trailer.

My point being, it is VERY hard to reach the maximum trailer towing capacity (called GTW in the manual) on a Gladiator, and this is especially true of the Rubicon model. There are VERY specific conditions in which you can get anywhere close to the 7,000 lb. number, and so far Jeep has done a terrible job of explaining this in printed materials.

 

[eternus]

I was in the Overland camp to start with but as I started adding up the things I wanted to do I quickly got close to the Rubicon price. So I am now leaning heavily toward ordering the Rubicon. The two big items are tires and replacing the running boards. Not a fan of either on the Overland.

I think this all plays into Jeep's big plan... the price difference between things is small enough to think "why not" so they get more and more of your money. I suppose it's brilliant on their part, but there are going to be a lot of people with way more Jeep than they "need." I realize as I say that... need is really not a big thing in the Jeep world. I will say that for 80% of Jeep buyers out there... just sticking a set of Duratracs/KO2/Anything Grapplers (NITTO tires) will meet their "needs" in making the Jeep look more aggressive and therefore more badass. My JKU Sport with a 3" lift and 33" Duratracs looks as awesome as just about any similar year Rubicon (and I'm certainly not biased.)

 

[Tire Guy]

I think this all plays into Jeep's big plan... the price difference between things is small enough to think "why not" so they get more and more of your money. I suppose it's brilliant on their part, but there are going to be a lot of people with way more Jeep than they "need." I realize as I say that... need is really not a big thing in the Jeep world. I will say that for 80% of Jeep buyers out there... just sticking a set of Duratracs/KO2/Anything Grapplers (NITTO tires) will meet their "needs" in making the Jeep look more aggressive and therefore more badass. My JKU Sport with a 3" lift and 33" Duratracs looks as awesome as just about similar year Rubicon (and I'm certainly not biased.)

You just hit the nail on the head. Look at how many of the spec models coming out are fully loaded Rubicons.

 

[eternus]

OK, let's say you've got a payload of 1,148 lbs. and towing rating of 7,000 lbs.

Let's say you're going camping. Rarely does a guy camp alone, so let's say you're going to take your family. Assuming a 200 lb. driver, 150 lb. spouse, and two kids with a total weight of 200 lbs, that's a total of 550 lbs. right?

So now you've got 598 lbs. of payload remaining, because the owners manual specifically states that the driver, passengers, cargo, and tongue weight all subtract from the payload.

So now IF you do not put anything else at all in the cargo box, and your trailer applies 10% of its weight to the tongue, you can tow a 5,980 lb. trailer.

If you add, let's say, 150 lbs. worth of camping gear into the bed of the truck, then you're left with 448 lbs. of payload which, at 10% tongue weight, would cap you at a 4,480 lb. trailer.

My point being, it is VERY hard to reach the maximum trailer towing capacity (called GTW in the manual) on a Gladiator, and this is especially true of the Rubicon model. There are VERY specific conditions in which you can get anywhere close to the 7,000 lb. number, and so far Jeep has done a terrible job of explaining this in printed materials.

Dude, you should expand this and make it a full blown training/educational post on the hows and whys of towing. Jeep can tell you "7650 lb towing" all day long... and it'll get people in the door, but then they don't understand there are different factors. Here's a great example, fresh off of Instagram.



You can't tell much from the video, but that trailer is definitely approaching, if not exceeding the 7k lb towing capacity without payload or occupant weight. This clip is what scares me about towing more than my Jeep can handle in the mountains of Colorado... he was lucky to have a nice, shallow ditch to ride off into... our ditches are a lot bigger here.

 

[relapsekg]

The biggest salem cruise lite trailer is 6193LBS.

Looking at the video, looks like a weight distribution setup was needed.

Towing is not easy, probably inexperience.

I have towed 8000lbs car trailers with my 99 ZR2 which is rated for 5000.

A trucks tow capacity doesn't make you a better driver...

Also EVERY truck advertises the MAX towing number.. and most of the time that max number is with a standard cab 2WD.

 

[eternus]

The biggest salem cruise lite trailer is 6193LBS.

Looking at the video, looks like a weight distribution setup was needed.

Towing is not easy, probably inexperience.

I have towed 8000lbs car trailers with my 99 ZR2 which is rated for 5000.

A trucks tow capacity doesn't make you a better driver...

Also EVERY truck advertises the MAX towing number.. and most of the time that max number is with a standard cab 2WD.

There is some joke here about "It's not the size that matters, it's how you use it" but I think that's a given.

 

[Bobzdar]

OK, let's say you've got a payload of 1,148 lbs. and towing rating of 7,000 lbs.

Let's say you're going camping. Rarely does a guy camp alone, so let's say you're going to take your family. Assuming a 200 lb. driver, 150 lb. spouse, and two kids with a total weight of 200 lbs, that's a total of 550 lbs. right?

So now you've got 598 lbs. of payload remaining, because the owners manual specifically states that the driver, passengers, cargo, and tongue weight all subtract from the payload.

So now IF you do not put anything else at all in the cargo box, and your trailer applies 10% of its weight to the tongue, you can tow a 5,980 lb. trailer.

If you add, let's say, 150 lbs. worth of camping gear into the bed of the truck, then you're left with 448 lbs. of payload which, at 10% tongue weight, would cap you at a 4,480 lb. trailer.

My point being, it is VERY hard to reach the maximum trailer towing capacity (called GTW in the manual) on a Gladiator, and this is especially true of the Rubicon model. There are VERY specific conditions in which you can get anywhere close to the 7,000 lb. number, and so far Jeep has done a terrible job of explaining this in printed materials.

You can very easily get close if you put the camping equipment in the trailer - putting the 150lbs of equipment in the trailer, properly distributed, only adds 15lbs to the tongue weight. So you're at 5980lbs trailer with the whole 550lbs family. If you have smaller kids (like I do), then you're looking at ~450lbs of family and you can tow the full 7000lbs. Now my trailer is only around 5000lbs loaded, so I'm around 150-200lbs under payload when I camp (actually a little more as I use a WD hitch, see below), but if you load the trailer smartly and have smaller kids, you're right there at 7000lbs.

Of course if you're going with 4 200lbs adults, well that limits you some...

edit: A weight distributing hitch makes it easier as it transfers some of the tongue weight back to the trailer - around 20% if you set the front ride height to same as stock. So lets say you have a 7000lbs trailer with 700lbs tongue weight and 50lbs weight distributing hitch. That's 750lbs of your payload. However, if you crank the bars to set the front ride height the same as prior to being loaded, it shifts 20% of the tongue weight (or 140lbs) back onto the trailer axles, so your payload hit is around 610lbs. With 1148 payload, you still have 538lbs for passengers without exceeding either gross vehicle weight.

In my case, I have a 5000lbs trailer with 500lbs tongue, 50lbs WD hitch, so 550lbs of payload. Around 100lbs gets shifted back on the trailer axles when the WD bars are set properly, so that's 450lbs, leaving around 700lbs for payload.

One more edit: If you want to run max payload, max trailer will be ~6800lbs due to GCWR of 12450lbs and GVWR of 6250lbs. Running 7000lbs trailer would only allow around 380lbs of additional payload due to the GCWR (12450-7000-5070 = 380), even if the overall vehicle would be 100-200lbs under GVWR.

If you tow 6800lbs, have a 50lbs WD hitch and set it to stock front ride height, you'll have 680-140+50=590lbs payload hit, you can then add another 558lbs to the truck giving you 6250lbs GVW and a GCW of 6800+5070+558=12428, or 22lbs under the GCWR (but with the truck at GVWR limit). So you could put another 20lbs in the trailer.

That said, while possible, I wouldn't want to do it for long

 

[Slapping_Rabbits]

You can very easily get close if you put the camping equipment in the trailer - putting the 150lbs of equipment in the trailer, properly distributed, only adds 15lbs to the tongue weight. So you're at 5980lbs trailer with the whole 550lbs family. If you have smaller kids (like I do), then you're looking at ~450lbs of family and you can tow the full 7000lbs. Now my trailer is only around 5000lbs loaded, so I'm around 150-200lbs under payload when I camp (actually a little more as I use a WD hitch, see below), but if you load the trailer smartly and have smaller kids, you're right there at 7000lbs.

Of course if you're going with 4 200lbs adults, well that limits you some...

edit: A weight distributing hitch makes it easier as it transfers some of the tongue weight back to the trailer - around 20% if you set the front ride height to same as stock. So lets say you have a 7000lbs trailer with 700lbs tongue weight and 50lbs weight distributing hitch. That's 750lbs of your payload. However, if you crank the bars to set the front ride height the same as prior to being loaded, it shifts 20% of the tongue weight (or 140lbs) back onto the trailer axles, so your payload hit is around 610lbs. With 1148 payload, you still have 538lbs for passengers without exceeding either gross vehicle weight.

In my case, I have a 5000lbs trailer with 500lbs tongue, 50lbs WD hitch, so 550lbs of payload. Around 100lbs gets shifted back on the trailer axles when the WD bars are set properly, so that's 450lbs, leaving around 700lbs for payload.

One more edit: If you want to run max payload, max trailer will be ~6800lbs due to GCWR of 12450lbs and GVWR of 6250lbs. Running 7000lbs trailer would only allow around 380lbs of additional payload due to the GCWR (12450-7000-5070 = 380), even if the overall vehicle would be 100-200lbs under GVWR.

If you tow 6800lbs, have a 50lbs WD hitch and set it to stock front ride height, you'll have 680-140+50=590lbs payload hit, you can then add another 558lbs to the truck giving you 6250lbs GVW and a GCW of 6800+5070+558=12428, or 22lbs under the GCWR (but with the truck at GVWR limit). So you could put another 20lbs in the trailer.

That said, while possible, I wouldn't want to do it for long

Good stuff! Im thinking of getting the manual Rubicon. The trailer I want has a max weight of 3500 but only weighs 1500 empty. My question is about hitches. Off road articulating hitches specially. How do they handle towing vs regular ones vs weight distribution hitches?

 

[smlobx]

Good stuff! Im thinking of getting the manual Rubicon. The trailer I want has a max weight of 3500 but only weighs 1500 empty. My question is about hitches. Off road articulating hitches specially. How do they handle towing vs regular ones vs weight distribution hitches?

I have one of those articulating hitches on my offroad trailer that I either haul our kayaks on or a RTT.
I have towed it 400 miles to the beach for a camping trip up to 70 MPH and have not noticed any issues with it. It does not rattle or behave in any unusual manner.

Highly recommend! In fact we are taking it from VA to CO on Tuesday in the hopes of finding some trails to run on... Here’s a picture of it behind our truck camper...

 

[Slapping_Rabbits]

It depends on what top you get on it brosephina

 

[BAT]

I have one of those articulating hitches on my offroad trailer that I either haul our kayaks on or a RTT.
I have towed it 400 miles to the beach for a camping trip up to 70 MPH and have not noticed any issues with it. It does not rattle or behave in any unusual manner.

Highly recommend! In fact we are taking it from VA to CO on Tuesday in the hopes of finding some trails to run on... Here’s a picture of it behind our truck camper...

I like that trailer

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