Wandering Wheel on a Stock 2023 JT Rubicon?

[ShadowsPapa]

Dang. I just checked my files and I can't find that repair order. All I remember is the repair order stated that they adjusted the toe settings to spec.

That's ok, just was wondering. Just knowing they set things to spec is good enough.

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[Tommyd]

The last new torque wrench shipped to the Toledo plant was made of wood.
Dealers love that $35 Stabilizer as the "calling it fixed" quick and dirty.

Lower the tire pressure to 33.
Toe OUT slightly. Assuming you're measuring at the outer edges of the tires, try 1/16" toe out.
You want positive caster - 5-6 degrees of it.
You cannot adjust caster without adjustable control arms, longer control arms, or geometry correction brackets.

Check the ball joints, sector shaft nut, tie rod ends, swaybar link bolts, wheel bearings, and every other steering and suspension-related fastener. Control arms need to be torqued with tires on the ground under the full weight of the vehicle.

Death Wobble, DW, Death Wobble, DW, Death Wobble, Shimmy, Wander, Drift, Bump Steer | Jeep Gladiator Forum - JeepGladiatorForum.com

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/?-2020-2023-jt-gladiator-torque-values-all-of-them-in-one-place.67915/

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/toe-in-vs-toe-out.66290/

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/going-digital-on-toe-settings.66231/

I don’t think you want any toe out. A tad bit of toe in is better. When up to speed your toe will be straight as the wheels push out with speed.

 

[Zachanadandy]

Tire pressure too high and caster too low from the factory. Tire pressure at 30psi was enough for our jlur to track straight when stock. The xr was bad enough it needed lcas even before we lifted it. My JTM seems to be fine even with the aev 2" spacer lift and 37s oddly enough. I'll probably add control arm drop brackets to help with bump absorption though.

 

[Lunentucker]

I don’t think you want any toe out. A tad bit of toe in is better. When up to speed your toe will be straight as the wheels push out with speed.

Take it up with SteerSmarts and several others who do this for a living. I didn't just make it up. More info in the links.

 

[Lunentucker]

Tire pressure too high and caster too low from the factory. Tire pressure at 30psi was enough for our jlur to track straight when stock. The xr was bad enough it needed lcas even before we lifted it. My JTM seems to be fine even with the aev 2" spacer lift and 37s oddly enough. I'll probably add control arm drop brackets to help with bump absorption though.

Brackets, front and rear, would be the first thing I'd add to a brand new all stock Rubicon or Mojave. They start out with low caster.

 

[Reddog]

Friends, we really appreciate any advice you can offer on an ongoing sloppy steering issue with our new 2023 Gladiator Rubicon with 6K miles. The issue has been there since our JT was purchased new. This JT has not been modified, except to the Rubicon trim level at the Jeep factory, which included a slight lift on Dana 44 wide front and rear axles. Stock tires are Falken Wildpeak all-terrain LT285/70R17C 33” with pressures at 37/37 PSI factory spec. Initial symptom was that the Jeep would constantly wander back and forth in its lane like a slalom skier. It was very difficult to keep it in its lane, particular at highway speeds. If one drove over a bridge expansion joint or bump at speed on a curve or with a crosswind, a brief shimmy was evident in the steering wheel and the Jeep definitely felt unsafe, but no death wobble yet. On longer highway trips, constant work became very tiring with constant steering wheel inputs to try and keep the Jeep centered in its lane. This 2023 model had the newer steel steering box.

Several trips to the Jeep dealer resulted in an inspection and replacement of the steering damper, which made no difference, of course. Since the dealer stopped responding to me when I requested to be put in contact with the Jeep regional rep, and since my wife was growing increasingly uneasy driving her Gladiator with winter approaching here in the Northeast, I took it upon myself to install the Steer Smarts Yeti sector shaft reinforcing brace/track bar mount and also their Yeti heavy duty track bar. This improved the steering to a safer feeling drive, with less need for steering input correction. But the truck still wandered noticeably, particularly at highway speed and especially in bumpy and windy conditions.

Since these Yeti parts were installed we also has a set of four new studded Copper Discover Snow Claw LT285/70R17 33” snow tires mounted (same size as stock tires). Tire pressure still at factory spec 37/37 PSI and the ride feels a bit softer, but with the exact same wandering wheel. While turning the steering wheel, it does not seem to want to return itself to center, so I did a quick alignment check. Toe-in is approx 1/8”, caster is -3 to -4 degrees from 90, and pinion angle is +3 degrees above level.

My guess here is that when the Jeep geniuses added a couple of inches of lift for the Rubicon trim level, they ignored the increased steering load for the heavier axles and change in geometry, creating our sloppy steering. My next step is to have a professional check the front-end alignment and see if there is any way to increase the negative caster slightly. I could fine no info nor see anything on the factory control arms which would indicate this adjustment is possible. If not, I’m considering swapping in a set of adjustable lower control arms to get 5 to 6 degrees of negative caster, which I believe may be the factory spec for the sport trim level. Though I am concerned about bringing the pinion angle closer to level and less straight with the front drive shaft.

I am also aware of the steering backlash adjustment, but the wheel itself seems to have very little play when inspecting Pitman arm movement. Potential electronic reprogramming of the electric steering pump response has also bee noted, but I prefer not to go there until I rule out alignment. My question to you, friends, is am I on the right track to dial-in our steering? Would you recommend an increased negative caster angle to help the steering wheel return, and reduce the wandering? If so, how much negative caster? Is there a particular lower control arm I should be looking at it came to that? Many thanks!

I have a 23 JTR that acted the same way. I almost returned it to the dealer but decided to keep it. I installed AEV lift with AEV wheels and 37’s and had the alignment tweaked by my off-road shop and it drives like its a Corvette now. Well almost anyway. Not sure about your vehicle but steering caster setting is important. If not enough caster it will wander all over the place. Good luck to you.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I don’t think you want any toe out. A tad bit of toe in is better. When up to speed your toe will be straight as the wheels push out with speed.

You are correct for a stock vehicle, and one that has had tire and wheel changes that still keep it within design criteria. But start adding large tires and wheels with different offset and so on, and then you get into the realm of scrub radius, and changing that drastically or in certain ways can lead to it wanting to "toe in" instead. Get to 0 scrub and it will want to wander, combined with certain toe and it will want to wobble as it tries to run around a pivot point, until the other side can no longer hold it and then it goes the other way.
Tire and wheel changes can introduce not only wander but wobble.
But that's ok, because everyone knows exactly what they are doing and that looks trump drivability any day. Anyone making any changes to their vehicle has already taken all of this into account.
As far as "Street Smarts" - most likely from my observations, they have accidentally stumbled upon this without realizing the forces behind what's going on and toss it out there as a solution, but not really knowing why. Just a hunch.
At a loss for what else to do - someone found that hey, this one handles straight down the road and look at the toe..........

 

[RobbertCole]

this guy sounds a lot like a " i bought a truck with a solid front axle and it doesn't drive with a car with independent front suspension" guy.


bud....you bought the automotive equivalent of a tractor. Its cool, but it isnt a race car.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but the Rubicon does not have a factory installed lift. Sure the shocks and springs may be different from say a Sport or Willys but I've never noticed a significant difference in height between all the trims that are stock. There is the Mopar 2" Lift that the dealer can install but the factory doesn't do that.

I would do what you said near the end and have a shop check the alignment.

The Mojave and Max Tows also have the wide 44's and don't have issues granted the Mojave suspension is more heavy duty so I'd probably eliminate that as a possibility for now.

It's understood that the Mojave is superior in all ways so yeah, we gotta count that out in the mix of Gladiators.

There's just something that bothers me in the original post. I could swear I've seen a couple of those sentences before, maybe a couple of months ago.

So no one has caught that he says he has negative caster and wants more negative caster?

No one is reading between the lines here.

I "jumped" because not only do we have an owner who knows nothing at all about Gladiators or even suspension and steering at all, but what is claimed to be known is 100% incorrect in all ways possible. And yet - to just start tossing parts at it, being concerned about things like pinion angle that will take care of itself when caster is correct, talking of wanting more negative caster - that says there's no idea what caster is or does, or what is positive vs. negative caster.
I could be all wrong, and if it's all innocent, the first thing that needs to be done is to forget and ignore everything he thinks he knows because not a lick of it is correct and it's only going to confuse him and mess him up on the way to a fix if he believes even a bit of what he posted is right.
To continue with any of those beliefs or thoughts will be expensive in parts, time, and even safety. So the first thing that has to be done is start all over, undo everything that he's believed.
And if that little nagging thing I have going on saying something is amiss - then.............

Time will tell if my nose is any good.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

bud....you bought the automotive equivalent of a tractor. Its cool, but it isnt a race car.

Are you SURE about that?

 

[RobbertCole]

Are you SURE about that?

*twisties race car

 

[Lunentucker]

this guy sounds a lot like a " i bought a truck with a solid front axle and it doesn't drive with a car with independent front suspension" guy.


bud....you bought the automotive equivalent of a tractor. Its cool, but it isnt a race car.

No. He said it's difficult to keep pointed straight, drifts, doesn't return to center on its own, and shimmies when encountering uneven sections of highway. NONE of that is typical, acceptable, or necessary in a solid axle vehicle.
It's not a "Jeep Thing" and it can be made right, with a few parts, knowledge, and tools.
No one should just write it off as part of owning a SAV, because it isn't.

 

[Zachanadandy]

Brackets, front and rear, would be the first thing I'd add to a brand new all stock Rubicon or Mojave. They start out with low caster.

I wouldn't run drop brackets at stock height, odds are you'd get too much caster and the arms angled upwards would ride as bad as steep arms from an uncorrected lift. If I were keeping a Mojave or Rubicon stock I'd run the Mopar extended lcas and can it a day. Lifted I'd definitely suggest front drop brackets, our 3.5" lifted JLUR handles great on 3.5" of lift and 39s thanks to the metalcloak drop brackets.

 

[Lunentucker]

I wouldn't run drop brackets at stock height, odds are you'd get too much caster and the arms angled upwards would ride as bad as steep arms from an uncorrected lift. If I were keeping a Mojave or Rubicon stock I'd run the Mopar extended lcas and can it a day. Lifted I'd definitely suggest front drop brackets, our 3.5" lifted JLUR handles great on 3.5" of lift and 39s thanks to the metalcloak drop brackets.

The top hole in the Rancho brackets are going to give you pretty close to the exact same movement as the Mopar arms, but the added benefit of the brackets is that if you do decide to install a lift of some kid later on, you can drop to the middle hole or the lower one, depending on the needs.

The rear brackets from Teraflex can be installed on anything from stock to 3.5 lift and more. They were like I had tossed 200 pounds of weight on the tailgate.
https://teraflex.com/jt-extended-travel-axle-bracket-kit-rear-upper-control-arms-1-rear-lift.html

 

[SoK66]

Drop about $90 on the LCAs from the Mopar lift kit and enjoy the improvement.
I found out about them in the JL Forum as a type of "fix" to the wander for the wife's 2020 JLU. Made a massive improvement, then when Jeep finally did the TSB to replace the aluminum gear box, that combined with the Mopar LCAs made for hell of a nice ride.
I ended up putting a set on my 80AE JT and that drove better than any Jeep I've ever driven. Better believe I'm putting a set in the Mojave JT I just purchased.

Ditto. I installed the Teraflex 1.5” leveling kit on my new ‘23 Willy to get rid of the rake. Doing so reduced the caster angle. On a Forum tip I also added the longer (1/4”) lower control arms from the Mopar 2” lift with very good results. They are very inexpensive and easy for a good alignment shop to install for you. I have quite a bit of Jeep building experience so doing the work myself was straightforward.

One bit of advice to the OP, your Rubicon like all JLs and JTs has a solid front axle. It will never be as stable on highway as a vehicle with independent front suspension. It’s a trade off to improve off road capability. For those of us in the Jeep world it’s something we hardly notice, but to the Jeep newbie it can take some getting used to. It’s a good idea to have the rig checked over for proper alignment, defective steering components, etc. but I have a feeling the issue is really just unfamiliarity with the vehicle.

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