Survey- For those with misfire issues

[ShadowsPapa]

Who is Stellanis?

PSA wanted to sell French cars in the U.S. again, I believe it was Peugeot, and FCA wasn't meeting expectations. So the French conglomerate PSA and FCA merged, the new company is Stellantis.
It was supposed to be a win-win with PSA gaining access to U.S. dealers and FCA to gain some technology and get into other markets.
But - look for some of the former Chrysler vehicles to disappear........... Jeep and RAM were the big things PSA wanted access to, the rest I suspect they couldn't care less about.

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[P0300!]

Very interesting and at the same time, odd. If it was a cam issue, like has been done with hundreds, they'd likely replace the lash adjusters, cams, followers, maybe phasers, VVL solenoids, that sort of thing. Apparently, although we really have almost no information to go on, it wasn't a cam issue. Or, the cause was undetermined. If there's a cam issue, it's really simple to tell by looking, or degreeing the cam to see if the profile is correct, measure lift at various points to ensure it wasn't mis-ground.
If it's a lack of hardness or heat treating, visual inspection should determine that, too.
So, IMO - this one is a mystery.
So many times in recent months I wish I had said yes to the service manager job at the local Jeep dealership - I'd LOVE to take some personal looks at these (even if on my own time)

The service rep was reading the tech's notes and they did say they checked the cams... it was on a list of many things they checked. They said they never could get to a root cause with Jeep so they just recommended to replace the whole engine.

When it comes to an engine replacement, is there anything I should be asking them? Anything I should be aware of??

 

[Snook]

The service rep was reading the tech's notes and they did say they checked the cams... it was on a list of many things they checked. They said they never could get to a root cause with Jeep so they just recommended to replace the whole engine.

When it comes to an engine replacement, is there anything I should be asking them? Anything I should be aware of??

"Sorry Mr PO300, we can't find another Pentastar so we'll have to go with a HEMI."

 

[ShadowsPapa]

"Sorry Mr PO300, we can't find another Pentastar so we'll have to go with a HEMI."

Sure - and that means new front axle (for the beefier knuckles), new springs, new transmission, new wiring harnesses (plural), new PCM, and more - about all that's original is the body and frame. I guess that could work.
Although frankly, I'd be interested in the new I6.
Hemis are old tech, no longer king of the road. There's much better chamber designs out there now. They live on because of name and reputation. People drool when they see the name, to me - gee, living in the 1960s, are we?

The service rep was reading the tech's notes and they did say they checked the cams... it was on a list of many things they checked. They said they never could get to a root cause with Jeep so they just recommended to replace the whole engine.

When it comes to an engine replacement, is there anything I should be asking them? Anything I should be aware of??

Not really - but - I'd want them to ensure that the correct lash adjusters are in the intake spots! I'd sure as $%^^ hope they would be by this point, but me being OCD and paranoid....

Very glad to see/hear that they did check cams! That means they at least have an awareness. I asked a couple of service writers at other shops a few months ago about their experiences with cam issues and got confused looks back at me.
In the end I saw that as a really good thing - these shops have never seen failed cams in a 3.6
So what's that tell me? It's not like they all lose cams, and the bit about it looking 10,000 times worse on the internet is real.
And - in your case - it wasn't cams (we'll assume their check was a good one)
Fakebook and forums are magnets - they attract problems like fish in the park pond speeding to the food tossed on the water.
Not that there aren't issues - obviously there are, but unless my own P0300 returns, (it still could) to this point we're at least 5 out of 5 solid 3.6 engines. If it returns, then I drop back to 4 out of 5 solid engines.

 

[JET_83]

Sure - and that means new front axle (for the beefier knuckles), new springs, new transmission, new wiring harnesses (plural), new PCM, and more - about all that's original is the body and frame. I guess that could work.
Although frankly, I'd be interested in the new I6.
Hemis are old tech, no longer king of the road. There's much better chamber designs out there now. They live on because of name and reputation. People drool when they see the name, to me - gee, living in the 1960s, are we?



Not really - but - I'd want them to ensure that the correct lash adjusters are in the intake spots! I'd sure as $%^^ hope they would be by this point, but me being OCD and paranoid....

Very glad to see/hear that they did check cams! That means they at least have an awareness. I asked a couple of service writers at other shops a few months ago about their experiences with cam issues and got confused looks back at me.
In the end I saw that as a really good thing - these shops have never seen failed cams in a 3.6
So what's that tell me? It's not like they all lose cams, and the bit about it looking 10,000 times worse on the internet is real.
And - in your case - it wasn't cams (we'll assume their check was a good one)
Fakebook and forums are magnets - they attract problems like fish in the park pond speeding to the food tossed on the water.
Not that there aren't issues - obviously there are, but unless my own P0300 returns, (it still could) to this point we're at least 5 out of 5 solid 3.6 engines. If it returns, then I drop back to 4 out of 5 solid engines.

why are there even misfire issues on a new vehicle to begin with, what's the root cause for such issues to ever happen?

 

[Snook]

why are there even misfire issues on a new vehicle to begin with, what's the root cause for such issues to ever happen?

We're not supposed to ask that question.

 

[P0300!]

why are there even misfire issues on a new vehicle to begin with, what's the root cause for such issues to ever happen?

I read all 100+ pages of this topic, and the common theme is there is no common, one-size explanation for all misfires. It can be caused by many different issues with very different remedies.

 

[Snook]

I read all 100+ pages of this topic, and the common theme is there is no common, one-size explanation for all misfires. It can be caused by many different issues with very different remedies.

What I'd like to know, is how often do most engines misfire? What about older engines, prior to these that are monitored for every little abnormality? Did the 4cyl in my 1995 Wrangler misfire occasionally? If so I never knew it.

 

[JET_83]

What I'd like to know, is how often do most engines misfire? What about older engines, prior to these that are monitored for every little abnormality? Did the 4cyl in my 1995 Wrangler misfire occasionally? If so I never knew it.

My grandmas 2000 Ford has 186,000 miles on it and never had a single misfire of the engine

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I read all 100+ pages of this topic, and the common theme is there is no common, one-size explanation for all misfires. It can be caused by many different issues with very different remedies.

You got it. People like to lump things together, though. It happens in the world in general "all people of xxxx are like yyyyy". They like simple explanations and fear or blast what they don't understand.
Have trouble with a Ford you used to own? Then isn't it obvious all Fords are crap?!
It's everywhere.
If it misfires, since 6 were cam issues, then they must all be cam issues.
Granted, it's a leading cause - but not the only one.
My wife's 2021 WK with 3.6 misfired badly with only about 800 or 900 miles on it.
I mean it bucked like a bronco with a bur under the saddle. Obvious misfire. But no MIL, and no DTC!
I captured freeze frames with AlfaOBD and glad I did as it smoothed out by the time I made the turn onto I35 north toward the dealership. It misfired in the driveway, jumped and missed, and it misfired on a test drive I took with it. (my logs were the only thing the dealer had to go by as there were 0 DTCs and the MIL never came on, not once.
The issue? Spark plugs (there was a TSB on it) In that case, it was P0303. Yeah, right bank - but it wasn't CAM.
We've seen people here with misfires and various small parts were replaced, we've seen people here with misfires and they went away after a couple of times, I believe we've seen coil pack issues a time or two over the last couple of years.

Misfires happen. Much more common in pre-OBD years, especially with carburetors. You could hear them, once in a while you could feel that spot where it wasn't perfectly smooth. Generally worse at idle - idle typically has to run a bit on the rich side, especially with older engines because the fuel had to be atomized and mixed with incoming air in the carburetor, then it had to make it all the way through the intake manifold, past the valve into the cylinder - uncompromised. On an I6 this was tricky because fuel has mass, mass has inertia - and fuel in the mixture moving wanted to keep moving so often ended up in #1 or #6 while 2 or 5 were a bit lean.
Before OBD you used a vacuum gauge or even a tissue or dollar bill held about 1/8-1/4" away from the end of the tail pipe and you could see it move, once in a while blown out further, or even pulled in a bit - misfire. You may not feel it, but it's there.
It happens even with modern engines - generally the one-off misfires aren't noted, a transient error doesn't set a code or request the MIL. You can take software and monitor almost any engine and see some misfires. You won't feel them, it's a subtle imperfect burn.

My grandmas 2000 Ford has 186,000 miles on it and never had a single misfire of the engine

You are saying in 186,000 miles, rough thinking - over 3,000,000 (over 3 million) firings of each cylinder, times the number of cylinders (with a 6 that's almost 19 million spark plug firings) not a single time was missed?
Wanna bet?

Misfires don't generally set a DTC or call for the MIL unless it's consistant.
You may not feel it the way they've knocked down vibrations and such these days but I can't see how any ICE goes it's life with 0 misfires.
Grab ForScan and put it in monitor mode and watch.

Most people think of a misfire condition as meaning it's jerking, it's 1 cylinder that's missing time after time after time, a loss of power, uneven acceleration, something you always feel, but that's not really correct.
A "misfire" simply means either an incomplete burn or no burn at all. It can happen one time, then not happen for the next 40,000 revolutions.

 

[JET_83]

You got it. People like to lump things together, though. It happens in the world in general "all people of xxxx are like yyyyy". They like simple explanations and fear or blast what they don't understand.
Have trouble with a Ford you used to own? Then isn't it obvious all Fords are crap?!
It's everywhere.
If it misfires, since 6 were cam issues, then they must all be cam issues.
Granted, it's a leading cause - but not the only one.
My wife's 2021 WK with 3.6 misfired badly with only about 800 or 900 miles on it.
I mean it bucked like a bronco with a bur under the saddle. Obvious misfire. But no MIL, and no DTC!
I captured freeze frames with AlfaOBD and glad I did as it smoothed out by the time I made the turn onto I35 north toward the dealership. It misfired in the driveway, jumped and missed, and it misfired on a test drive I took with it. (my logs were the only thing the dealer had to go by as there were 0 DTCs and the MIL never came on, not once.
The issue? Spark plugs (there was a TSB on it) In that case, it was P0303. Yeah, right bank - but it wasn't CAM.
We've seen people here with misfires and various small parts were replaced, we've seen people here with misfires and they went away after a couple of times, I believe we've seen coil pack issues a time or two over the last couple of years.

Misfires happen. Much more common in pre-OBD years, especially with carburetors. You could hear them, once in a while you could feel that spot where it wasn't perfectly smooth. Generally worse at idle - idle typically has to run a bit on the rich side, especially with older engines because the fuel had to be atomized and mixed with incoming air in the carburetor, then it had to make it all the way through the intake manifold, past the valve into the cylinder - uncompromised. On an I6 this was tricky because fuel has mass, mass has inertia - and fuel in the mixture moving wanted to keep moving so often ended up in #1 or #6 while 2 or 5 were a bit lean.
Before OBD you used a vacuum gauge or even a tissue or dollar bill held about 1/8-1/4" away from the end of the tail pipe and you could see it move, once in a while blown out further, or even pulled in a bit - misfire. You may not feel it, but it's there.
It happens even with modern engines - generally the one-off misfires aren't noted, a transient error doesn't set a code or request the MIL. You can take software and monitor almost any engine and see some misfires. You won't feel them, it's a subtle imperfect burn.




You are saying in 186,000 miles, rough thinking - over 3,000,000 (over 3 million) firings of each cylinder, times the number of cylinders (with a 6 that's almost 19 million spark plug firings) not a single time was missed?
Wanna bet?

Misfires don't generally set a DTC or call for the MIL unless it's consistant.
You may not feel it the way they've knocked down vibrations and such these days but I can't see how any ICE goes it's life with 0 misfires.
Grab ForScan and put it in monitor mode and watch.

Most people think of a misfire condition as meaning it's jerking, it's 1 cylinder that's missing time after time after time, a loss of power, uneven acceleration, something you always feel, but that's not really correct.
A "misfire" simply means either an incomplete burn or no burn at all. It can happen one time, then not happen for the next 40,000 revolutions.

Guaranteed

 

[JET_83]

You got it. People like to lump things together, though. It happens in the world in general "all people of xxxx are like yyyyy". They like simple explanations and fear or blast what they don't understand.
Have trouble with a Ford you used to own? Then isn't it obvious all Fords are crap?!
It's everywhere.
If it misfires, since 6 were cam issues, then they must all be cam issues.
Granted, it's a leading cause - but not the only one.
My wife's 2021 WK with 3.6 misfired badly with only about 800 or 900 miles on it.
I mean it bucked like a bronco with a bur under the saddle. Obvious misfire. But no MIL, and no DTC!
I captured freeze frames with AlfaOBD and glad I did as it smoothed out by the time I made the turn onto I35 north toward the dealership. It misfired in the driveway, jumped and missed, and it misfired on a test drive I took with it. (my logs were the only thing the dealer had to go by as there were 0 DTCs and the MIL never came on, not once.
The issue? Spark plugs (there was a TSB on it) In that case, it was P0303. Yeah, right bank - but it wasn't CAM.
We've seen people here with misfires and various small parts were replaced, we've seen people here with misfires and they went away after a couple of times, I believe we've seen coil pack issues a time or two over the last couple of years.

Misfires happen. Much more common in pre-OBD years, especially with carburetors. You could hear them, once in a while you could feel that spot where it wasn't perfectly smooth. Generally worse at idle - idle typically has to run a bit on the rich side, especially with older engines because the fuel had to be atomized and mixed with incoming air in the carburetor, then it had to make it all the way through the intake manifold, past the valve into the cylinder - uncompromised. On an I6 this was tricky because fuel has mass, mass has inertia - and fuel in the mixture moving wanted to keep moving so often ended up in #1 or #6 while 2 or 5 were a bit lean.
Before OBD you used a vacuum gauge or even a tissue or dollar bill held about 1/8-1/4" away from the end of the tail pipe and you could see it move, once in a while blown out further, or even pulled in a bit - misfire. You may not feel it, but it's there.
It happens even with modern engines - generally the one-off misfires aren't noted, a transient error doesn't set a code or request the MIL. You can take software and monitor almost any engine and see some misfires. You won't feel them, it's a subtle imperfect burn.




You are saying in 186,000 miles, rough thinking - over 3,000,000 (over 3 million) firings of each cylinder, times the number of cylinders (with a 6 that's almost 19 million spark plug firings) not a single time was missed?
Wanna bet?

Misfires don't generally set a DTC or call for the MIL unless it's consistant.
You may not feel it the way they've knocked down vibrations and such these days but I can't see how any ICE goes it's life with 0 misfires.
Grab ForScan and put it in monitor mode and watch.

Most people think of a misfire condition as meaning it's jerking, it's 1 cylinder that's missing time after time after time, a loss of power, uneven acceleration, something you always feel, but that's not really correct.
A "misfire" simply means either an incomplete burn or no burn at all. It can happen one time, then not happen for the next 40,000 revolutions.

Never experienced said jerking, grandma hasn’t either

 

[TheLunk]

Joined the club today. But mine is very different.
Cold start - fine. Shut it off for just a few minutes (like 5 or so) and start it - it's fine.
Drive it until hot - fully warmed up, go into a store or church or whatever for 20-45 minutes, come back out, it starts fine and runs fine for about 2-3 minutes and then goes into ding ding ding mode with blinking CEL.
First tine the CEL flashed several times and then locked on.
Second time - tonight - it flashed on and off a lot of times, dinged several times, then I pulled over to set my phone up to log misfires and it was bucking and running REALLY rough - one or two cylinders were not firing AT ALL. I'd say at least one cylinder was dead.
Then as I sat there and got the phone to log - it smoothed out and ran GREAT the rest of the way home!

My new 2022 Overland started showing almost identical behavior last week, at around 1100 miles...

First thrown a solid CEL that stayed on through several off/on cycles, and an overnight cooldown.

Light was on when I pulled into dealership the following afternoon. They said it was off when they looked at it. Pulled a 0300 code out of memory... told me to keep an eye on it...

All this week I've been getting brief flashing CEL incidents, -ONLY- after a prolonged run, then a short stop (30 minutes). Cold starts have been trouble free... The CEL has stopped on its own each time... Note Bene: its been mid 90's here all week, so possibly an environmental impact?

Kind of disheartening, after 30,000 nearly trouble free miles on the 2020 Sport S Max Tow I just traded in...

We will see how it goes...

 

[ShadowsPapa]

My new 2022 Overland started showing almost identical behavior last week, at around 1100 miles...

First thrown a solid CEL that stayed on through several off/on cycles, and an overnight cooldown.

Light was on when I pulled into dealership the following afternoon. They said it was off when they looked at it. Pulled a 0300 code out of memory... told me to keep an eye on it...

All this week I've been getting brief flashing CEL incidents, -ONLY- after a prolonged run, then a short stop (30 minutes). Cold starts have been trouble free... The CEL has stopped on its own each time... Note Bene: its been mid 90's here all week, so possibly an environmental impact?

Kind of disheartening, after 30,000 nearly trouble free miles on the 2020 Sport S Max Tow I just traded in...

We will see how it goes...

Sounds like you have been driving my truck! Identical in many ways. The 2020 engine was totally trouble free and tick free. Never a CEL. (well, when Jeep released their trailer brake controller and never talked to the engineers who coded the ABS - geesh, those teams need to TALK to each other!)

Mine is ok for short stops, it's longer stops like 30-60 minutes - and then the startup is fine and the first minute or two are fine. It's only after you've gone a couple of blocks.
Yeah, that makes me think it's environment or heat related.
Heat advisory for us (AGAIN) tomorrow, so we'll see how it goes tomorrow.

 

[P0300!]

My new 2022 Overland started showing almost identical behavior last week, at around 1100 miles...

First thrown a solid CEL that stayed on through several off/on cycles, and an overnight cooldown.

Light was on when I pulled into dealership the following afternoon. They said it was off when they looked at it. Pulled a 0300 code out of memory... told me to keep an eye on it...

All this week I've been getting brief flashing CEL incidents, -ONLY- after a prolonged run, then a short stop (30 minutes). Cold starts have been trouble free... The CEL has stopped on its own each time... Note Bene: its been mid 90's here all week, so possibly an environmental impact?

Kind of disheartening, after 30,000 nearly trouble free miles on the 2020 Sport S Max Tow I just traded in...

We will see how it goes...

Very similar to my issue. Time to start comparing build dates??

My build date for my 22 overland was 12-09-21.

PS- the new engine should be delivered by Wednesday or Thursday.

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