Can a section of the frame be cut out and replaced if bent?

[chorky]

Frame damage should equal a total loss unless a body shop can bend it back - but that changes the structural integrity and how the steel on a molecular scale is.

I would be questioning that collision center. Have been seeing bunches of these gladiators get totaled for a relatively minor fender bender. I cant see how a bent frame would be cheaper to repair as it likely damaged other components and probably the body. How bad is the frame bent? I would suspend the bed is wrinkled in a few spots as well.

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[ShadowsPapa]

Frame damage should equal a total loss unless a body shop can bend it back - but that changes the structural integrity and how the steel on a molecular scale is.

I would be questioning that collision center. Have been seeing bunches of these gladiators get totaled for a relatively minor fender bender. I cant see how a bent frame would be cheaper to repair as it likely damaged other components and probably the body. How bad is the frame bent? I would suspend the bed is wrinkled in a few spots as well.

Frames get replaced. It's done, and not end up with a total loss.
That varies with state and other circumstances.

Frame can easily bend and not impact the body as far as cab or bed. Those are very flexible mounts and very forgiving.
Physics - if the bumper is hit hard, the things mounted on the frame will want to stay stationary while the frame gives. Things like mounts may be damaged, even broken.

Shops have been straightening frames for since before I started driving. Very normal. I even went through a very short bit on that when learning basics of auto body repair. I've got specs for various frames in some old books.
Today, it's a different animal with the different steel used, and I'd want a new frame vs. one straightened when it comes to these frames, but, it's been done for longer than I've been alive.

Forum members here have been through frame replacement if I recall correctly.

The thing to watch out for is engine and transmission mounts, body mounts, even t-case and transmission case depending on the collision and the forces involved. All due to physics. Anything with mass would want to maintain it's speed and direction, or lack of speed.

 

[chorky]

Frames get replaced. It's done, and not end up with a total loss.
That varies with state and other circumstances.

Frame can easily bend and not impact the body as far as cab or bed. Those are very flexible mounts and very forgiving.
Physics - if the bumper is hit hard, the things mounted on the frame will want to stay stationary while the frame gives. Things like mounts may be damaged, even broken.

Shops have been straightening frames for since before I started driving. Very normal. I even went through a very short bit on that when learning basics of auto body repair. I've got specs for various frames in some old books.
Today, it's a different animal with the different steel used, and I'd want a new frame vs. one straightened when it comes to these frames, but, it's been done for longer than I've been alive.

Forum members here have been through frame replacement if I recall correctly.

The thing to watch out for is engine and transmission mounts, body mounts, even t-case and transmission case depending on the collision and the forces involved. All due to physics. Anything with mass would want to maintain it's speed and direction, or lack of speed.

yeah frame replacement would be ok. I didnt think that would be cost beneficial though on the JT. I would be curious to hear from anyone who had that done how long it took. I would imagine if a collision is hard enough to bend or crack a frame then theres probably a good chance an engine or trans mount is also cracked. maybe not but that seems likely to me. Todays HSS is pretty interesting stuff. Not even 15 years ago it was common to drill various accessories into frames. I wouldnt even think about doing that today. But i think many companies have gotten real good with bolt on products and manufacturers seem to have a good amount of open slots available, almost like it is planned.

 

[dcmdon]

I have no idea on the JT, but I have found some weld on repair sections and mounts for other vehicles in the past. It it's done right, I don't see how this automatically is a bad thing.

Trick is....will it be done right?

Done right it will be stronger and more rust resistant than the unrepaired side. But it will impact resale value. A new frame will probably run $15k installed. That's the problem.

 

[dcmdon]

Shops have been straightening frames for since before I started driving. Very normal. I even went through a very short bit on that when learning basics of auto body repair. I've got specs for various frames in some old books.
Today, it's a different animal with the different steel used, and I'd want a new frame vs. one straightened when it comes to these frames, but, it's been done for longer than I've been alive.

When I was a kid my friends father owned a body shop. They had a "frame puller" that a good body man could use to bring that thing good as new.

Do body shops even have frame pullers anymore??

 

[Animal]

When I was a kid my friends father owned a body shop. They had a "frame puller" that a good body man could use to bring that thing good as new.

Do body shops even have frame pullers anymore??

I've seen Robby Layton use one on the YouTube within the past few months. Was interesting to watch.

 

[JHydroJ]

The shop is probably saying they can section the rear rail that is damaged beyond repair. Some manufacturers build in sections that can replaced over replacing the whole frame. It depends on where the damage is, to be certain there isnt damage further up you would need a setup and measure on a frame rack. A quick search on mopar shows rear rails are available for sale. #5 in the diagram below. And yes shops still make pulls to frames but have to be careful because most are hss and have restrictions on being heated.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

When I was a kid my friends father owned a body shop. They had a "frame puller" that a good body man could use to bring that thing good as new.

Do body shops even have frame pullers anymore??

I know exactly what you mean - I've seen 'em in the past.
Today? I haven't seen any recently but then I've not been in many collision or body shops recently, either.

The shop is probably saying they can section the rear rail that is damaged beyond repair. Some manufacturers build in sections that can replaced over replacing the whole frame. It depends on where the damage is, to be certain there isnt damage further up you would need a setup and measure on a frame rack. A quick search on mopar shows rear rails are available for sale. #5 in the diagram below. And yes shops still make pulls to frames but have to be careful because most are hss and have restrictions on being heated.

I believe Jeep indicates, not necessarily in so many words, that parts of the frame are not HSS.
You may have found those areas.

I had a truck frame lengthened years ago. I bought a truck to use as a grain truck and had a shop cut and stretch the frame out so I could use a longer box and better hydraulic lift. The cuts were perfect, the welds excellent and they used fish plates. It was a fantastic job and I loaded the heck out of that truck when hauling grain.

Done right it will be stronger and more rust resistant than the unrepaired side.

I can't think of any "shop" that would bother with the methods of making welded areas rust resistant. Heating steel will make it rust unless methods are used to prevent it.
I'd done my share of patch welding. The areas around the steel that's been heated by the welding will rust pretty quickly.
And the fact that many of these sections are "tubes" complicates things. It's never the same as virgin treated steel. Any phosphate coating, that sort of thing, it's gone.

 

[chorky]

When I was a kid my friends father owned a body shop. They had a "frame puller" that a good body man could use to bring that thing good as new.

Do body shops even have frame pullers anymore??

I think frame pulling is quickly going down in history. Most people dont even know what that is anymore... so much parts replacing instead of fixing - for better or worse.

But only 15K to replace a frame? I would have expected closer to 20 or even 22K. Thats surprisingly cheap for how complex these vehicles are. I guess it depends on how harnesses and things are ran, if it can be easily lifted with the body with relatively few components needing to be unhooked, or not.

I recall replacing an engine of a Lincoln LS was it? 20 years ago. Nobody else in the shop would touch it, so of course the new guy got it, but being the only one willing to work on hard jobs I had at it. First thing I thought was insane was the driveshaft went over, or was it through..., the gas tank. And the design of the vehicle, the only way to get the engine out was to drop the entire subframe and trans at the same time. lol. The shop foreman and manager were questioning their decision at the time until they looked at the repair manual themselves. It was a 2.5 day project. At first I thought it was insane that they designed it so that the whole front end, including suspension and all would have to drop out of the car. But after it was all apart, the engine swap went super easy - just slow since I had never done a Lincoln before and neither had the most experienced guy in the shop. That was one of the rarer instances where I didn't make threatening remarks toward an engineer - any tech would understand that statement haha.

 

[Camaroboi13]

I worked at a Caliber Collision Center probably close to 20 years ago, and we used the frame puller once or twice. It was a Big Chief something or other. Very cool machine, and it did its job quite well. In the last 20 years I’d bet that puller has been used less than a dozen times. It’s just not worth it and things like salvage title or frame damage scare the living crap out of potential customers.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I think frame pulling is quickly going down in history. Most people dont even know what that is anymore... so much parts replacing instead of fixing - for better or worse.

But only 15K to replace a frame? I would have expected closer to 20 or even 22K. Thats surprisingly cheap for how complex these vehicles are. I guess it depends on how harnesses and things are ran, if it can be easily lifted with the body with relatively few components needing to be unhooked, or not.

I recall replacing an engine of a Lincoln LS was it? 20 years ago. Nobody else in the shop would touch it, so of course the new guy got it, but being the only one willing to work on hard jobs I had at it. First thing I thought was insane was the driveshaft went over, or was it through..., the gas tank. And the design of the vehicle, the only way to get the engine out was to drop the entire subframe and trans at the same time. lol. The shop foreman and manager were questioning their decision at the time until they looked at the repair manual themselves. It was a 2.5 day project. At first I thought it was insane that they designed it so that the whole front end, including suspension and all would have to drop out of the car. But after it was all apart, the engine swap went super easy - just slow since I had never done a Lincoln before and neither had the most experienced guy in the shop. That was one of the rarer instances where I didn't make threatening remarks toward an engineer - any tech would understand that statement haha.

Best way to do engine work outside of the car is out the bottom, IMO............

 

[JW Jeep]

I was in heavy collision for over 30 years and a manager. We repaired and straightened frames and sectioned
them. Hell We put 2 unibody cars together Before salvage branding. Front half from one and rear from another. We changed many frames , brand new ordered right from Gm, ford, Chrysler. If repair is done right they are good as new except the value. The problem was some guys were cheating in repairs and cutting corners and thats where salvage branding started. If it’s not totaled push for a new frame And diminishEd value. God knows how long to get a frame in this market And rental vehicle cost. might push it to total Loss ?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Things have changed. Materials have changed. Today's frame isn't the same as from 10+ years ago.
The world has changed as well............. there's always been "get it in, get it done, collect the money, get it out" shops - now the percentage seems to be higher. Heck, there was a recent article where the current generation is dissing "labor" as totally beneath them. Get my hands dirty?
Few are going into trades. That means fewer good ones. Smaller pool to choose from.

I put an entire 1/4 of a car onto another - my brother's Rebel, after he was rear-ended. The whole right rear was crumpled. I cut and welded.
Did similar for a wagon that was t-boned. Cut the B pillar out of a sedan and welded it into the wagon.
In both cases the cars weren't twisted - things lined up perfectly.
And in both cases resale was never a consideration. We didn't care.
Of course, unibody construction is a different animal.
I inspected a car for a guy years ago - thought the crack in the windshield was odd. Crawled under it and found it was one of those front half welded to rear half cars. Likely it would have never held glass properly. Likely twisted and stressed.

 

[dcmdon]

I think frame pulling is quickly going down in history. Most people dont even know what that is anymore... so much parts replacing instead of fixing - for better or worse.

But only 15K to replace a frame? I would have expected closer to 20 or even 22K. Thats surprisingly cheap for how complex these vehicles are. I guess it depends on how harnesses and things are ran, if it can be easily lifted with the body with relatively few components needing to be unhooked, or not.

A friend of mine had an LT1 conversion done to his JK. When they dropped the frame from the body they found all kinds of corrosion. He decided to replace the Fram.

In the end it cost him an extra 10k, largely because the body was already off and they were already going to replace the engine, transmission, exhaust, springs, cooling system and much of the harness.

So the 15k number is really a reasonably educated guess. If you have knowledge of me being way off, I'm happy to learn.

One interesting thing is that these shops that specialize in conversions can drop the entire body off the frame in just a few hours. Then you are left with drivetrain, fuel tank and suspension. So much of the complexity of a new vehicle comes off with the body.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

One interesting thing is that these shops that specialize in conversions can drop the entire body off the frame in just a few hours. Then you are left with drivetrain, fuel tank and suspension. So much of the complexity of a new vehicle comes off with the body.

Yeah, and most of the harnesses have multiple connection points. Just unplug much of the electrics and lift the body off.
Much more complex with a 4xe - just dropping the transmission pan is a big deal as they shut down both high and low voltage systems and so on.
Watching these things being built and how modular things are, it's amazing. I'd bet the frame could be dropped out without many hours spent on a basic 3.6 equipped Jeep. Part of it is just knowing where all of the connectors are.

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