FCA Reports Q3 2023 US Sales, Including Jeep Gladiator Sales

[Wolf Island Diver]

Im hoping fca sees the consistent volume drop as a direct result of the inflated prices.

They tried to have their cake and eat it too. They push this image of this fun loving, get it dirty, rough and tumble, off road tool for families with a Black Lab or an Aussie in the back, fording water and crawling over rocks. The ultimate lifestyle vehicle for camping and beach day with the top down. They constantly push the G.I. war horse image and that Jeep is a middle American institution.

But that’s in complete opposition to the pricing. They’re priced like some kind of bougie status symbol for yuppies. Like a BMW. Hell, you can buy an X3 M40 for less. You can buy a Porsche Boxster. For a certain demographic of wealthy individual the luxury 3/4 truck is the ultimate status symbol to go with a McMansion. But my 21’ JTRD midsize truck sticker price was what my buddy paid for a new loaded Chevy 2500HD with dualies! After ordering mine, a little voice in my head said “dude you could have bought a C8 Corvette.”

Whenever people hear what this cost they always say the same thing, “For a Jeep?” They now has a reputation amongst gen Z’ers as unobtainium. As a rich person car. Potential buyers increasingly can’t reconcile the Jeep image with the Jeep price. They broke the model. Only hardcore Jeep people will pay money for a noisy brick on wheels and not be pissed off about it. That’s why they do so badly in CRs quality reports. It’s not quality issues. It’s all the people who bought the image and then had to live with the reality. Those people were willing to drop a lot of dough for the Jeep lifestyle idea, once. Even hard core Jeepers are a shrinking demo at these prices. They broke the model for the people who see the noise and handling as features, not bugs. They broke it for nostalgia. They broke it for lifestyle buys. They broke it for cross-shoppers who say “why not get something fun.”

Like so many other companies after 2020, they used legitimate inflationary pressure to slide in extreme new levels of profit on what was already getting to be obscene levels. I still can’t get over how the V8 option when accounting for the larger tires and all the rest, is priced at nearly what an installed crate engine costs. Since when has a V8 option cost 20k? I could have bought a loaded Ram 1500 with a Hemi for 15k less than what I paid for my Gladiator, again almost 30k less than a 392. It’s almost double the price of a Ram. They’ve lost their minds. The audacity.

What’s now happening is that chickens are coming home to roost. People are tired of this bs. Personally, I have zero sympathy for what happens next to the greedy French and Italian $&@;ards at Stellantis both with this strike and with the sales.

Sponsored

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Why bother comparing to a Corvette or BMW or Porsche?
Those are cars - totally different audience. Why would I buy a car when I want a small truck?
I don't see the constant "I could buy a xxxxxx" when it's comparing apples to rocks. It's not even a fruit to fruit comparison when it's a truck compared to a car - a 4x4 truck compared to a sports car or luxury brand.

If I wanted a full size truck, I would have bought one. Again, "could buy a Ram with a hemi" or Chevy 2500 - those are different. At least in that case it's comparing apples to grapefruit.

Compare like to like, at least. Same size to same size. "I could buy a Ridgeline" or "I could buy a Tacoma" or a Colorado is at least a fair comparison.

Some of the comparisons are more like "I could have bought a tablet for less than he paid for his laptop". Uh, yeah - different reasons for each.

Jeep has to keep expanding into other markets - that means business men and women, doctors, attorneys, heck, people like my brother who buys Jeeps just because he likes them and the style and what they represent. He'll never take his jeeps even onto gravel if I know him like I think I do. He likes the ruggedness of a Jeep, but with some of the refinements. Jeep is hitting his type perfectly, spot-on to capture buyers like him.

I think people looking to judge what's up with Jeep are the wrong people doing the judging - the wrong group. It's the few who have niche expectations and are older buyers. Ask some of the younger folks.

It's a world-wide market and the audience has broadened a lot.

But to say to me "you could have bought a Ram with a hemi for less" is way off because I didn't want another full size truck and certainly didn't care for or need a V8. Time to downsize. The other offerings just were not attractive to me - even though cheaper, they didn't appeal to me.

 

[ErylFlynn]

Why bother comparing to a Corvette or BMW or Porsche?
Those are cars - totally different audience. Why would I buy a car when I want a small truck?
I don't see the constant "I could buy a xxxxxx" when it's comparing apples to rocks. It's not even a fruit to fruit comparison when it's a truck compared to a car - a 4x4 truck compared to a sports car or luxury brand.

If I wanted a full size truck, I would have bought one. Again, "could buy a Ram with a hemi" or Chevy 2500 - those are different. At least in that case it's comparing apples to grapefruit.

Compare like to like, at least. Same size to same size. "I could buy a Ridgeline" or "I could buy a Tacoma" or a Colorado is at least a fair comparison.

I agree. I can get a pretty loaded Tacoma, MSRP of 51k. I can build out a Ram 1500 with a hemi SAME PRICE as the 3.6L and get out the door about 55k. They are over priced for what they are, and no real heavy duty motor for a pickup. They don't compete well in the pickup market. They need to match up well, then you get the win on specs, and the win on being a jeep.

 

[Wolf Island Diver]

But to say to me "you could have bought a Ram with a hemi for less" is way off because I didn't want another full size truck and certainly didn't care for or need a V8. Time to downsize. The other offerings just were not attractive to me - even though cheaper, they didn't appeal to me.

I wasn’t talking to you. I don’t care what motivated your decision. What motivated me doesn’t matter either. This is a thread about Jeeps falling sales numbers, not about our personal buying calculus. It’s completely off topic. The point I’m making again is that to a lot of people a bigger truck is more truck. A v8 is better than a v6. Maybe they’re all wrong. It doesn’t matter. What matters is that Jeep seems like less of a value to a lot of people, as indicated by the declining sales numbers. The V8 option costs $3000 in a Ram. It costs $20k in a Jeep. Why is there a $17k premium for putting the same engine in a Jeep? And I’m not talking about the premium for the 392 model. That’s $35k over the rubicon. When you build out a similarly equipped RubiconX with the 37s and all, it’s still $20k more just for the engine in the 392 , $17k more than what it costs in a Ram. And this special edition bs Jeep is always doing is just another scam they’re running.

Jeep has to keep expanding into other markets - that means business men and women, doctors, attorneys, heck, people like my brother who buys Jeeps just because he likes them and the style and what they represent. He'll never take his jeeps even onto gravel if I know him like I think I do. He likes the ruggedness of a Jeep, but with some of the refinements. Jeep is hitting his type perfectly, spot-on to capture buyers like him

This is a ridiculous statement. You don’t expand in a market by raising prices. You tailor the features of the product or you lower prices. The JL platform was designed to expand the market with livability and drivability improvements. None of those changes was drastic enough to warrant the price increases that have happened in the last 3 years long after the JL was released. My loaded JK sticker was $49k. A similar JL wasn’t much more when it came out, around $52k . A similar built JL is now $65k. The big delta came after the JL was introduced. It has nothing to do with features.

Now, I know a lot of lawyers and doctors. I know a lot of business people and executives. None of them think that way. None of them say “oh look a Jeep Wrangler now costs $70k. I should buy one.” And the really rich people I know are always trying to get a better deal and spend the least amount of money. Most of them don’t even buy cars.

The reason I bring up the Corvette and Porsche is not to compare them as if someone cross shops a Gladiator and a Boxster. That doesn’t make any sense. The point is that a Jeep now costs what a Corvette or Boxster costs. People were and are still willing to pay that for one of those cars. They’re clearly not willing to pay that for a Jeep as evidenced by the declining sales numbers and incentives they’re now putting on them. And neither the Corvette nor the Boxster have experienced the price inflation of the Wrangler or Gladiator in the last 3 years. This isn’t expanding markets. It’s not inflation. It’s price gouging. If it’s all about expanding markets, it’s literally having the opposite effect.

 

[916WI]

The market will speak and the prices will adjust accordingly. The dealership with a loaded 2023 Rubicon diesel I was considering called yesterday. With an almost $75k MSRP, they have moved to $12k under list. The only issue, is that I would have to take $5k less than I paid 5 months ago for my current Gladiator on trade. That's where the other problem with this platform comes into the picture. If that truck was properly engineered and supported by their dealerships, I would consider it. Considering it took them 6 months to come up with a fix for the fuel pump issue and the common stories about electrical problems, cooling iproblems, oil leak problems, etc. give me serious pause when thinking about "upgrading". I pull a small travel trailer--to release that model and consistently hear about how it cannot make it up a hill in the summer without derating is sad. If they put out a product that had all of these issues dealt with before they hit the showroom floor and was bulletproof before they got into the hands of their consumers, some of those prices might just be justified.........

 

[Hootbro]

They sold 4 Dodge Darts last year? Wow.

For something that went out of production 7 years ago, there has to be a interesting story of why they sat around unsold for that many years.

 

[Alpine Warthog]

So does anybody else smell the impending elimination of the Cherokee? The new Recon is more Bronco-like. (to me it looks like an H2 with removable doors/panels) AND now there's gonna be a mid-sized wagoneer? I'm thinking the Cherokee and the GC are both on the chopping block. The Recon could have easily been the next generation of the cherokee, harkening back to something a little more XJ-esque. A midsized wagoneer? Couldn't that be a next gen of the Grand? Seems like the cherokee name is on the way out

EDIT: Looks like I answered my own question: https://www.carsdirect.com/automoti... American vehicles,the Jeep lineup since 1974.
Still leaves the Grand Cherokee question though.....

 

[Rahkmalla]

Im hoping fca sees the consistent volume drop as a direct result of the inflated prices.

That's a funny joke you told. C Suite doesn't put boots on the ground. None of them have probably had a real conversation with anyone who would actually buy a gladiator in decades. That's what focus groups are for: talking to the poors.

Had this conversation recently with my VP of sales as to why a certain product wasn't moving. He said the market had moved on from that product. My team said we had the wrong price. He disagreed, but figured since the sales were non-existent it wouldn't hurt to try an experiment and see if we were right. MINOR price adjustment and the product is flying out the door. We're rushing to get more in stock and have been for over 6 months. We won that one, but topic comes up again with new product; VP says "market has moved on again"... we say "remember product XYZ" he says "not the same" and refuses.

Leadership!

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I agree. I can get a pretty loaded Tacoma, MSRP of 51k. I can build out a Ram 1500 with a hemi SAME PRICE as the 3.6L and get out the door about 55k. They are over priced for what they are, and no real heavy duty motor for a pickup. They don't compete well in the pickup market. They need to match up well, then you get the win on specs, and the win on being a jeep.

Again, comparing to a larger truck that can't remove the roof, etc.- it takes a lot of engineering to make a roofless truck pass government requirements. They don't have to do that with a Tacoma or Ram. The body is the structure. The JT requires a while independent roll cage to support it in event of a roll-over. The doors are expensive to engineer because they have to be light and removable.
Now we're comparing something that has no features, no roll cage, no removable doors.
There's a lot of engineering and building costs that go into a vehicle that has to have a whole roll cage, extra connectors and wiring, aluminum panels and so on to make things removable.

So we're comparing something that has traditional build processes, traditional body panels, extremely simple wiring harnesses without any connectors that can be removed and put back, that can't go through 30" of water, that don't have entire catalogs of accessories to a basic traditionally built and designed truck.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

That's a funny joke you told. C Suite doesn't put boots on the ground. None of them have probably had a real conversation with anyone who would actually buy a gladiator in decades. That's what focus groups are for: talking to the poors.

Had this conversation recently with my VP of sales as to why a certain product wasn't moving. He said the market had moved on from that product. My team said we had the wrong price. He disagreed, but figured since the sales were non-existent it wouldn't hurt to try an experiment and see if we were right. MINOR price adjustment and the product is flying out the door. We're rushing to get more in stock and have been for over 6 months. We won that one, but topic comes up again with new product; VP says "market has moved on again"... we say "remember product XYZ" he says "not the same" and refuses.

Leadership!

The goofy thing about pricing is that the appearance of the numbers matters, too. Thus all of the xx.95 prices. Hey, it's only $19.95. Make it $20 and people aren't interested, but get under 20 and it matters. People see numbers in certain ways and there are thresholds, and the way some numbers look. When I was laid up after some surgery years ago I was stuck with daytime TV and things like The Price is Right. Those who went slightly above a threshold were more likely to be wrong than those who went just under a round number. It's how it looks to the eye in some cases, and how it's perceived as being under a certain level as well.

I've been in, and am still in at least 1, 'focus group" and I periodically get asked about features, what's important or not, and then finally if you say even sort of yes to something, the next questions are "would you pay xxxx for this feature" and if you say yes, the next question has a number a bit higher. When you say no, those questions stop. They even ask "would you prefer to pay up front, roll it into a vehicle loan, or add it later at the dealership as an accessory".

 

[Rahkmalla]

That’s why they do so badly in CRs quality reports. It’s not quality issues. It’s all the people who bought the image and then had to live with the reality

Anecdotally, people on the Ford side of overpriced bricks are starting to notice that the WIldTrak (the highest trim that's not a Raptor) is seemingly very overrepresented on used lots. The supposition being that people with WildTrak money bought into the hype surrounding the vehicle, only to realize it's a pricey car with a cheap interior and a noisy, truck-like ride.

I have no problem with them offering higher market wrangler, gladiator, and bronco options for people who want them, but the expensive JLs, JTs, and 6Gs are the real niche, much more so than the cheapies and it feels like Stellantis and Ford don't understand that.

For the money I've put into my Mojave I could be driving an X5. That's not a choice I'd ever make, but to most of the rest of the country that's an easy decision in the BMW direction.

 

[Deleted member 57233]

Again, comparing to a larger truck that can't remove the roof, etc.- it takes a lot of engineering to make a roofless truck pass government requirements. They don't have to do that with a Tacoma or Ram. The body is the structure. The JT requires a while independent roll cage to support it in event of a roll-over. The doors are expensive to engineer because they have to be light and removable.
Now we're comparing something that has no features, no roll cage, no removable doors.
There's a lot of engineering and building costs that go into a vehicle that has to have a whole roll cage, extra connectors and wiring, aluminum panels and so on to make things removable.

So we're comparing something that has traditional build processes, traditional body panels, extremely simple wiring harnesses without any connectors that can be removed and put back, that can't go through 30" of water, that don't have entire catalogs of accessories to a basic traditionally built and designed truck.

So you're saying the Gladiator can only be compared to midsize trucks that can remove the roof?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

So you're saying the Gladiator can only be compared to midsize trucks that can remove the roof?

If you are comparing costs, yeah, because the fact that roof, roof panels and doors can be removed, that's an expensive feature the others don't have. Jeep requires a roll cage - the others don't have that.
Making a fold-down windshield also requires some engineering due to federal regulations. No one is factoring in the costs of engineering and production and passing government regs.

People are trying to compare a truck with AC to a truck without and then wonder why there's any difference in price.

Gee, why is a 4 wheel drive truck so much more expensive than a 2 wheel drive truck? I don't get it! They are the same class of truck.
It's what people are doing.

Why is a loaded Grand Cherokee so much cheaper than a Gladiator? Because of the traditional manufacturing and chassis design - no roll cage, no folding windshield, solid roof, etc.
On the other hand, look at the price difference for a sky one touch roof (I think that's the marketing term) to one without. When I was looking around I saw a price difference of around 4 grand. That's not all the cost of the power roof itself - it's a different roof structure to support it.
Why such a huge difference? Production costs - and the fact that now there has to be a structure to support that open roof. Expensive to design and build.

Take away removable doors, removable roof (which takes away a roll cage) and certain other features like water fording and the price would drop quite a bit.

 

[BAT]

Im hoping fca sees the consistent volume drop as a direct result of the inflated prices.

Exactly I had a few friends who were interested in them but choked on the price. One of them bought a really nice Tundra for less than he was being asked to pay for the Gladiator he was looking at. The other one said no way he was gonna pay that kind of money for it and likely will go the way of a full size truck

 

[BAT]

Again, comparing to a larger truck that can't remove the roof, etc.- it takes a lot of engineering to make a roofless truck pass government requirements. They don't have to do that with a Tacoma or Ram. The body is the structure. The JT requires a while independent roll cage to support it in event of a roll-over. The doors are expensive to engineer because they have to be light and removable.
Now we're comparing something that has no features, no roll cage, no removable doors.
There's a lot of engineering and building costs that go into a vehicle that has to have a whole roll cage, extra connectors and wiring, aluminum panels and so on to make things removable.

So we're comparing something that has traditional build processes, traditional body panels, extremely simple wiring harnesses without any connectors that can be removed and put back, that can't go through 30" of water, that don't have entire catalogs of accessories to a basic traditionally built and designed truck.

Real world buyers do not compare all of that stuff though. They see oh man really want a jeep but can get this nice 1500 or other brand for cheaper with way more comfort and bells/whistles. I just had a good friend do this exact scenario. Loved my truck but saw he could get Tundra with tons more stuff for less and that is what he got.

Sponsored