Sudden catastrophic power failure at 13 months 20,000 miles.

[BearFootSam]

@ShadowsPapa - Would you be shocked to learn it was the ESS/Aux battery?

I finally got the truck back yesterday; it was the aux battery sensor on the negative terminal that somehow fried and caused the aux battery to run down which precipitated the total meltdown.

New module, new battery under warranty.

I'm going to submit a complaint to the NHTSA, this failure mode is far too common to not get higher level attention. A non-critical system failure that contributes in no way to the core functionality of the vehicle should not totally incapacitate it. I guess my opinion has changed to the ESS not being fit for purpose and needs to go back to development.

Anyhow, the three weeks without my truck gave me an interesting opportunity for seat time in different vehicles.

Dealer loaner - 2021 Compass, ?... I knew after five minutes this was a CVT, that's a scooter transmission, not for cars. I get the operating principle in theory offers a number of advantages but the faux shift stepping defeats the optimum rpm benefit and, in this case, caused harsh jerky transitions. The screen such that it is was so awful it would be a major upgrade to have an old analog head unit. It felt like it struggled just making up the driveway.

Rental over the Thanksgiving holiday - Tesla Model 3 dual motor. The polar opposite of the JT, low, sporty, efficient and fully modern. The UI is irritating, I enjoyed the unencumbered view over the wheel but doing anything at all required navigating menus while driving. The autopilot feature was novel and interesting but awfully dangerous. While testing it a few occasions the road curved and the car tried to fight me keeping it in the lane while it wanted to go straight. Disconcerting to say the least. The instantaneous acceleration doesn't let up until at least 80mph which is as fast as I dared on the roads of Vancouver Island.

Getting back into the JT reminded me of driving it off the dealer's lot. It felt really tall after being in the low slung Tesla, but the visibility is much better even though the model 3 had a full glass roof. I've really come to appreciate the upright flat windshield of the JT. At night especially, the higher stance, broad windshield and better lights of the JT are an advantage at night. I appreciated the great AT in the JT. It also makes me want to drive slowly as opposed to the model 3 that just wanted to run away. Off the three vehicles, the JT is by far the most comfortable. I enjoy the upright position with plenty of distance from the seat pan to the floor and the more open feeling of the high ceiling and boxy cab. It's not much bigger but it feels so.

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[ShadowsPapa]

Would you be shocked to learn it was the ESS/Aux battery?

I finally got the truck back yesterday; it was the aux battery sensor on the negative terminal that somehow fried and caused the aux battery to run down which precipitated the total meltdown.

There is no aux battery sensor, and especially not o the negative terminal.
So in that way, no, it's not the aux battery issue.

Ya got some bad info.

The sensor on the negative battery terminal is the IBS - it is not strictly related to ESS, nor the aux battery. It IS related to crank battery health.

It's also very rare that those ever go bad.
If it fried, there was a LOOSE connection or something pulled some hellish amperage through it..
My suspicion is a loose connection (See TysonGladiator's post and video on loose connections)
Sorry - still not aux battery related, not ESS related.

I guess my opinion has changed to the ESS not being fit for purpose and needs to go back to development.

Why? That is NOT, I repeat - Not, ESS related. That's the IBS and almost all newer vehicles use an IBS! Millions of cars and trucks have that sensor.
It monitors the MAIN battery, not anything else, period.

So I don't know where you got your bad information or why your thinking on ESS would change because what happened to yours is zip to do with the aux battery or ESS.

Someone fed you a line of bovine excrement if the dealer told you that's what it is.
Even SINGLE battery systems use that because it's for the MAIN or crank battery and determines rate of charging of the main battery. Mercedes, BMW and many other cars use an IBS.

So - no surprise here to see it was zip to do with the ess or aux battery LOL.

 

[sharpsicle]

I'm going to submit a complaint to the NHTSA, this failure mode is far too common to not get higher level attention. A non-critical system failure that contributes in no way to the core functionality of the vehicle should not totally incapacitate it. I guess my opinion has changed to the ESS not being fit for purpose and needs to go back to development.

What "failure mode" are you referring to? Don't take this the wrong way, but you've got some iffy information coming across and I'm not sure you are truly or accurately representing what happened. And it's totally possible this is due to the dealer not providing you with realistic information either. As @ShadowsPapa mentioned there is no ESS battery sensor, there's only an IBS, and that manages both batteries. It's not ESS despite how often people conflate the two systems. ESS doesn't care how many batteries you have, because it's not a battery system...

Definitely not accusing you of anything. But what's been said doesn't add up just yet, so I'd wonder what complaint you would be filing.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Here is that "sensor" on the negative battery terminal -

If either of those two nuts is loose, or, the clamp on the terminal is loose, it causes crazy, weird things to happen including shutdown, melted parts and so on.
You say it's a non-essential part - yeah, it is essential as it is part of the vehicle's charging system much like a voltage regulator is. It senses current going INTO and OUT OF the main battery and only the main battery. It senses the battery temperature. Those readings help the PCM determine how much to ramp the voltage up or down for main battery charging (along with other factors like engine torque/load and so on).

 

[ShadowsPapa]

What "failure mode" are you referring to? Don't take this the wrong way, but you've got some iffy information coming across and I'm not sure you are truly or accurately representing what happened. And it's totally possible this is due to the dealer not providing you with realistic information either. Definitely not accusing you of anything. But what's been said doesn't add up just yet, so I'd wonder what complaint you would be filing.

It's possible he got the same tech I had a couple of years ago when they said my winch was draining my batteries (at rest) and they fixed it for me by moving the ground cable off the top of the battery and over to the fender ground. (totally ignoring that big RED switch in the OFF position right next to the cable he moved)

My fear is that it's not just bad information from the internet in the form of forums and Youtube videos, but it's bad dealer information as well.

IF he's talking the IBS, it is an essential part of the vehicle's charging system these days.

Here's a partial list of cars using the IBS -
RENAULT.
BMW.
AUDI.
OPEL.
MERCEDES-BENZ.

I should say that the IBS helps make ESS possible, but the IBS has many functions and providing SoH and SoC information for ESS functionality is part of that. The IBS is what tells the PCM or BCM when the battery is hot so the charging voltage can be cut down to prevent battery overheating. It's used for emissions and mph benefits as well, since it's a huge waste using a constant charging voltage even with a fully charged battery. That alternator can take some HP from the engine when you need it, so why run it on a full battery?
The IBS is what helps make a smart charging system "smart".
So while it's involved, even without ESS, you'd have an IBS.

Here's another style of IBS used on a single battery system -

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Dealer loaner - 2021 Compass, ?... I knew after five minutes this was a CVT, that's a scooter transmission, not for cars.

In most it's not a CVT.
That's what the Freedom Drive offroad package comes with, it's a special package, not what they get standard.
Too bad you got stuck with that one.
My son had a Compass he loved and it had a great automatic in it - I think he had at least a 6 speed. (thinking back it seemed like more than 6 but he's since traded it for another vehicle)
His was zippy, pretty strong for that little engine, and pulled a u-haul trailer with ease through the mountains between us and their new home in Florida.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I'm going to submit a complaint to the NHTSA, this failure mode is far too common to not get higher level attention. A non-critical system failure that contributes in no way to the core functionality of the vehicle should not totally incapacitate it.

Forgot - was going to comment on this part -
That "failure mode" is due to many different things from loose connections, bad grounds, bad batteries and the list goes on. So one person had an IBS fry resulting in the exact same symptoms that others have had - but with different causes.
Everyone with a runny nose has a head cold?
Everyone with flashing lights and total shutdown has an ESS related problem, or even an IBS related problem?
Every misfire is a coil pack?
The symptoms are the same - the system goes crazy and shuts down - but as TysonGladiator pointed out, there's a host of possible causes because the cause is electrical system failure - AT SOME POINT in the system.
Could be loose battery cable clamp, could be bad IBS, could be loose ground, could be - the list goes on.
So honestly, what would one complain about?
This is actually the very first time I've seen someone say the IBS had a melt down.
but it's not the first time I've seen posts about a vehicle shutting down. The list of causes for that is long.

If you submit a complaint that the IBS went bad, I bet you'd be one of a VERY small group (of maybe 2).
If you submit a complaint that the vehicle shut down - you'll have company, but if 6 people complained each one of those 6 that shut down is likely a different electric system cause.

All I suggest is - get the correct information before submitting a complaint.

https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2006-21-0001/

https://www.dubizzle.com/blog/cars/... current supply,have two on each respectively.

 

[BUZZHEAD]

SHADOWS PAPA HAS SPOKEN

 

[ShadowsPapa]

LOL - a number of others could have explained it all very eloquently, and in 60% fewer words. Hootbro, Jebiruph and some others knows these systems well.

And lest anyone think this is a problem of magnitude or frequency for Jeep, check this out -

The IBS has been around for well over a decade, invented by BMW if I recall correctly.
It's used to monitor the main/crank battery, that's the only thing it's even connected to.....
Several others here can speak to that.

 

[Pauliboy]

I had this happen to be and it blew one of the main fuses in the Fuse Array. Cause was loose battery leads on MAIN BATTERY after Stop/Start battery replacement by dealer. Dealer would not admit re loose battery leads but they replaced Fuse Array free of charge!! surprise surprise. Attached are videos and the dealer report with recommended part replacement. (Note the dealer that did temp repair was not the dealer that replaced the battery) Also attached is a pic of the temp fix by dealer that handled our breakdown. We drove around for 3 x weeks like this with no fuse box cover on whilst waiting for part.

Report

Part

 

[Escape.idiocracy]

There is no aux battery sensor, and especially not o the negative terminal.
So in that way, no, it's not the aux battery issue.

Ya got some bad info.

The sensor on the negative battery terminal is the IBS - it is not strictly related to ESS, nor the aux battery. It IS related to crank battery health.

It's also very rare that those ever go bad.
If it fried, there was a LOOSE connection or something pulled some hellish amperage through it..
My suspicion is a loose connection (See TysonGladiator's post and video on loose connections)
Sorry - still not aux battery related, not ESS related.



Why? That is NOT, I repeat - Not, ESS related. That's the IBS and almost all newer vehicles use an IBS! Millions of cars and trucks have that sensor.
It monitors the MAIN battery, not anything else, period.

So I don't know where you got your bad information or why your thinking on ESS would change because what happened to yours is zip to do with the aux battery or ESS.

Someone fed you a line of bovine excrement if the dealer told you that's what it is.
Even SINGLE battery systems use that because it's for the MAIN or crank battery and determines rate of charging of the main battery. Mercedes, BMW and many other cars use an IBS.

So - no surprise here to see it was zip to do with the ess or aux battery LOL.

https://store.mopar.com/oem-parts/m...meT0yMDIyJnQ9cnViaWNvbiZlPTMtMGwtdjYtZGllc2Vs

Is there a way to test the IBS without using the dealers software??

 

[ShadowsPapa]

https://store.mopar.com/oem-parts/m...meT0yMDIyJnQ9cnViaWNvbiZlPTMtMGwtdjYtZGllc2Vs

Is there a way to test the IBS without using the dealers software??

None I'm aware of - I've even checked out some Bosch technical info on them and there's nothing exciting there.
FCA/STAR simply say that if the IBS has a problem, there will be a code.
They are suggesting if there's no code, reset it and move on, and only if there are further failures, replace it.

I've had my JT on the BatteryMinder a couple of times this past week, once was for over 2 days. I've driven it more off and on the last couple of days and noted today, even with temperatures of 35 degrees, I was running voltages of 12.9 while driving, saw a bit of time at 12.8, then later while driving at night, lights on, etc. it was sticking around low 13s to 13, reinforcing in my mind anyway that these just don't get kept charged by driving in many cases.
Weird because I'd bet tens of thousands of vehicle owners aren't that much different.
And it also reinforced my idea that when it's time for batteries, I'm going for the most amp hours I can stuff in there. More AH means it can sit longer with the parasitic draw of the electronics and not drop voltage so much.
With modern vehicles, I value AH over CCA in some cases - these crank and start easy as heck, but let them sit and you have issues. So more AH, less drop in voltage with the same draw.

 

[Lost1wing]

Forgot - was going to comment on this part -
That "failure mode" is due to many different things from loose connections, bad grounds, bad batteries and the list goes on. So one person had an IBS fry resulting in the exact same symptoms that others have had - but with different causes.
Everyone with a runny nose has a head cold?
Everyone with flashing lights and total shutdown has an ESS related problem, or even an IBS related problem?
Every misfire is a coil pack?
The symptoms are the same - the system goes crazy and shuts down - but as TysonGladiator pointed out, there's a host of possible causes because the cause is electrical system failure - AT SOME POINT in the system.
Could be loose battery cable clamp, could be bad IBS, could be loose ground, could be - the list goes on.
So honestly, what would one complain about?
This is actually the very first time I've seen someone say the IBS had a melt down.
but it's not the first time I've seen posts about a vehicle shutting down. The list of causes for that is long.

If you submit a complaint that the IBS went bad, I bet you'd be one of a VERY small group (of maybe 2).
If you submit a complaint that the vehicle shut down - you'll have company, but if 6 people complained each one of those 6 that shut down is likely a different electric system cause.

All I suggest is - get the correct information before submitting a complaint.

https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2006-21-0001/

https://www.dubizzle.com/blog/cars/battery-current-sensor/#:~:text=To ensure adequate current supply,have two on each respectively.

I disagree. Go ahead, submit your case. That is the whole point of reporting. If several other have the same issues, something can be done to prevent further trouble. If they find no one else is having the issue, well then, it is just another report.

The original diagnosis and repair from the shop should be in the report.

I believe faulty workmanship is the issue and not design from the manufacturer. The OP may want to go to a different dealer next time.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I hope you aren't meaning report to NHTSA........

NHTSA is about safety issues. Reporting "I had electric issues and had to find a place to pull over and stop" is extremely generic. Report what? You had electric issues? And like shown above here - could be loose connection, could be a tech screwed up, could be........... could be.......

Reports like that are nothing to NHTSA and simply work to clog their already busy system when Bubba gripes of some loose handle or something and says he's gonna sue (there's crap like that out there in those "reports" or "complaints". It's hilarious to read some of them)

If several other have the same issues, something can be done to prevent further trouble. If they find no one else is having the issue, well then, it is just another report.

Report a loose connection? To who? And who is going to prove why it was loose or when it came loose? It could have literally been loose since before the first visit for any work.

NHTSA is about safety concerns, they look for commonality, common causes, root causes, defects in materials, design, workmanship. Issues like in these can be caused by many different things.

I bet if you look at the complaints of this exact scenario, the causes are quite different in many cases, the age of the vehicle very different, and it was totally annoying and inconvenient, but not something the NHTSA would be very concerned with. I'd also bet the numbers are small in the end - made to look worse because forums are where people are funneled in to talk about complaints and problems.

 

[sharpsicle]

I hope you aren't meaning report to NHTSA........

NHTSA is about safety issues. Reporting "I had electric issues and had to find a place to pull over and stop" is extremely generic. Report what? You had electric issues? And like shown above here - could be loose connection, could be a tech screwed up, could be........... could be.......

Reports like that are nothing to NHTSA and simply work to clog their already busy system when Bubba gripes of some loose handle or something and says he's gonna sue (there's crap like that out there in those "reports" or "complaints". It's hilarious to read some of them)


Report a loose connection? To who? And who is going to prove why it was loose or when it came loose? It could have literally been loose since before the first visit for any work.

NHTSA is about safety concerns, they look for commonality, common causes, root causes, defects in materials, design, workmanship. Issues like in these can be caused by many different things.

I bet if you look at the complaints of this exact scenario, the causes are quite different in many cases, the age of the vehicle very different, and it was totally annoying and inconvenient, but not something the NHTSA would be very concerned with. I'd also bet the numbers are small in the end - made to look worse because forums are where people are funneled in to talk about complaints and problems.

Confirmation bias at its finest. Because I can find similar threads on my issue when I do a search specifically for it, that means it's widespread!

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