OIL, 0-20 or otherwise (couldn't find the other oil threads)

[ShadowsPapa]

How did you get a picture of one of my X's

All your x's live in Texas?

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[Stan H]

All your x's live in Texas?

No just that one now I freeze in the wintertime in WV

 

[Badunit]

The problem with the latest iteration of the 3.6L appears to be the high-lift cam lobes and rocker arms wearing and failing. I have no worries about the lower end of the engine but if thicker oil can help maintain an oil film between the high-lift cam lobes and the high-lift part of the rocker arms as they slide across each other, I'm all for it. It may be a bandaid but we have no other fix or upgrade that I am aware of.

 

[DiehardTory]

The problem with the latest iteration of the 3.6L appears to be the high-lift cam lobes and rocker arms wearing and failing. I have no worries about the lower end of the engine but if thicker oil can help maintain an oil film betwen the high-lift cam lobes and the high-lift part of the rocker arms as they slide across each other, I'm all for it. It may be a bandaid but we have no other fix or upgrade that I am aware of.

That is my thoughts too, and why I run 5w30 in ours.

 

[dos0711]

I run 5W-30 with no issues. I use that weight due to the heat in Florida.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I run 5W-30 with no issues. I use that weight due to the heat in Florida.

I have to wonder if the "0w20" with no other level mentioned at all - unlike in the past, is due to the EU lifetime oil requirements rules.
It used to be "run XwYY unless, then run ZwHH" - there were cold climate and hot climate recommendations. You don't see that any more.
But for southern FL (south of the panhandle) and the southern parts of the Republic of Texas, it makes sense to up to 5w30 oil. Even areas around Phoenix and so on where a cool day is 95 degrees it could make sense. No worries about needing that 0w in those areas and you get up to operating temp pretty quickly.
Some don't put enough miles on to go by mileage for oil changes - for those I recommend seasonal changes - there's another case of swapping out viscosities for the expected climate.

 

[DiehardTory]

Check this from the 2013 3.6L Wrangler JKU we own; from the owners manual..
NOTE: SAE 5W-30 engine oil approved to Fiat 9.55535-S1
or Fiat 9.55535-S3 may be used when SAE 5W-20 engine
oil meeting MS- 6395 is not available.
Synthetic Engine Oils
You may use synthetic engine oils provided the recommended
oil quality requirements are met, and the recommended
maintenance intervals for oil and filter changes
are followed.
Materials Added To Engine Oil
The manufacturer strongly recommends against the addition
of any additives (other than leak detection dyes) to
the engine oil. Engine oil is an engineered product and its
performance may be impaired by supplemental additives.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Check this from the 2013 3.6L Wrangler JKU we own; from the owners manual..
NOTE: SAE 5W-30 engine oil approved to Fiat 9.55535-S1
or Fiat 9.55535-S3 may be used when SAE 5W-20 engine
oil meeting MS- 6395 is not available.
Synthetic Engine Oils
You may use synthetic engine oils provided the recommended
oil quality requirements are met, and the recommended
maintenance intervals for oil and filter changes
are followed.
Materials Added To Engine Oil
The manufacturer strongly recommends against the addition
of any additives (other than leak detection dyes) to
the engine oil. Engine oil is an engineered product and its
performance may be impaired by supplemental additives.

The problem is, that's a different engine. It may be a 3.6 and share parts - but the crankshaft journals, bearings used (materials and sizes) oil pump, cam timing control, the addition of VVL, a 2 stage oil pump and other changes mean it's going to behave differently.

Synthetics tend to hold viscosity better, handle sheer better.
I really get a kick out of "you may use synthetic............" That's funny looking at it 12 years later.

The last paragraph is a given, absolutely why I will not put additives in engine oils. They can actually REDUCE protection and upset the chemistry of the oil's additives. If you don't trust your oil enough so that you feel the need to add crap to it - change to a better oil!

 

[Deleted member 67086]

The problem with the latest iteration of the 3.6L appears to be the high-lift cam lobes and rocker arms wearing and failing. I have no worries about the lower end of the engine but if thicker oil can help maintain an oil film between the high-lift cam lobes and the high-lift part of the rocker arms as they slide across each other, I'm all for it. It may be a bandaid but we have no other fix or upgrade that I am aware of.

Exactly!! It’s not like they’ve announced a cause and released a fix.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Exactly!! It’s not like they’ve announced a cause and released a fix.

Because it's likely more than one root cause meaning "the fix" will vary a bit.
I'd also like to know if all failures were running the actual recommended oil or if some decided their personal fave "was better". There are going to be at least some variables and unlikely one solution to all

 

[Deleted member 67086]

Because it's likely more than one root cause meaning "the fix" will vary a bit.
I'd also like to know if all failures were running the actual recommended oil or if some decided their personal fave "was better". There are going to be at least some variables and unlikely one solution to all

Definitely possible. Just find it strange that with the previous generation, everyone was blaming the rocker arm needle bearings that would fail. Well, they’ve been revamped but the end result is essentially the same, having to replace rockers, cams, etc. Actually it seems worse now in that the needle bearings were failing at close to 100k miles, if not more. With the latest Penastar, reported issues are being reported much earlier, in some cases less than 30k miles, which begs the question, did this not surface on testing?? I would definitely like to know if there were/are any owners who switched to 0w30 or 5w30 early on (ex. less than 10k miles), and if so, have any of those experienced issues.

 

[jav_eee]

I'd also like to know if all failures were running the actual recommended oil or if some decided their personal fave "was better".

all 9 or 10 of our 5.3 fleet vehicles that suffered lift issues or whatever it is that plagues GM engines were running the factory recommended fill. Our company doesn’t let us pick our own flavor of oil. I know it’s the 5.3 and not the 6.2 but…

 

[Hootbro]

I have never seen anything definitive that deviations from recommended oil grade was the sole case or contributing cause of engine problems or failures in our Pentastars. If anything, most indications point to the lions share of engine problems and failures were people running the recommended 0W-20 grade.

Like @ShadowsPapa mentioned, there does not seem to be a one size fits all determination of what causes these failures or is a combination of things like material defect or assembly errors when built. To date, no one has figured out a "if you do this, then you will never have a problem" solution to the issue. I would like to know the reason though that have within the last couple of years moved the engine production from Mexico back the the USA and how those engines are trending for failure rate? They may have taken back a better quality control and better supplier network but that is just speculation on my part.

A couple of days ago, the below video came in my Youtube feed of a guy doing a 175K mile review of his Gladiator and what he had to do with it over that time. He seemed to have a 5K mile oil change interval and while grade was not mentioned, I assume it was dealership and/or oil change shop down and probably with 0W-20. Over 100K, he had misfires and had the whole right bank valvetrain replace. Around 133K, he makes claim of a water intrusion issue that froze his timing chain to the block while up in Alaska and that spun a timing gear on one side and condemned his engine which was replace under his extended warranty.

The whole video IMHO is worth a watch. Gives insight to an average dude basically following the OM recommendations for fluid changes to include the differentials. His Gladiator is a manual with over sized tires with just the basic tow package and what I assume is running on 3.73 gears the whole time as he does not mention a gear swap. He did though upgrade clutch to a Centerforce one. He does make a couple technical error mentions but his channel is not primarily about his Gladiator but his travels and his Gladiator is a tool for that and not about the Jeep lifestyle being any major focus for him.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I have never seen anything definitive that deviations from recommended oil grade was the sole case or contributing cause of engine problems or failures in our Pentastars. If anything, most indications point to the lions share of engine problems and failures were people running the recommended 0W-20 grade.

Like @ShadowsPapa mentioned, there does not seem to be a one size fits all determination of what causes these failures or is a combination of things like material defect or assembly errors when built. To date, no one has figured out a "if you do this, then you will never have a problem" solution to the issue. I would like to know the reason though that have within the last couple of years moved the engine production from Mexico back the the USA and how those engines are trending for failure rate? They may have taken back a better quality control and better supplier network but that is just speculation on my part.

That last part has been on my mind since I found out in very early 2024 that the 24 model year engines were USA sourced. Interesting as up through the 2023 model year I believe they were all Mexico built.

As far as my mention of "who used what oil" and did it fail - It's not to blame or say "don't do that" or anything of the sort.
I'm coming at it from a "data point" side of things.
For example - you have 40 right bank intake cam failures (which begs the question - why bank #1 or right bank??)
Of those 40, 3 or 4 people did their own thing, having come from a history with Jeeps, maybe life-time Wrangler people - JUST for example only - and they were used to 5w30 and that's what they stocked, that's what they used, so those 3 or 4 people used 5w30 oil and had the failure along with the majority (I assume Hootbro is most likely correct)
It might sort of suggest that hey - doesn't matter, it still failed.
Now if you have ALL failures that used 0w20 and none that used 5w30 failed - that's not proof of anything either - as many people go with no failure at all - I've had several PUG (Pentastar UpGrade) engines, never a mechanical failure with the engine ever - all on "by the book oil". So in my case, if I had been using 5w30 and had no engine failures - so what, i'd have had no failures anyway in any case.
But if a person was using 5w30 or other than 0w20 and had the failure - it indicates that oil isn't the problem (unless they used crap for oil - and that's possible no matter the weight/viscosity)

So my wondering about "I wonder if anyone running OTHER viscosities ran into the failure" is to see if we can all but count out an oil viscosity issue.

Lash adjusters have been an issue - ticking has been traced to lash adjusters per a TSB out there - if it ticks and if it meets this criteria, change the lash adjusters. Hmmmmm.
We've seen the early engines (say JT 2020 model year) get new cams and followers and Jeep/FCA says you really need to do a PCM flash as well - indicating a different set of instructions - implying new cam profiles, IMO. Why otherwise change the PCM code just for a cam swap if the cam is identical?

So don't take me wrong on the oil thing - it's not to say or suggest "you blew it because you did or didn't do this". It's "I'd really like to know if there were any failures of the cam and followers AND the oil being used was not "by the book" just to see. Not to blame the not-by-the-book oil, but to sort of indicate - hmmm, that didn't seem to help - she still blew.

It's what I do - companies have hired me for decades to troubleshoot and fix that which others, including teams of others, had previously been unable to resolve. Call it a side effect of my brain being wired so very off-the-norm and being totally unable to ignore any input no matter where it's coming from. Now if i just had a decent RAM cache for what's stored there- - accessing it in a meaningful way is the problem. It's all up there.

 

[Hootbro]

As far as my mention of "who used what oil" and did it fail - It's not to blame or say "don't do that" or anything of the sort.
I'm coming at it from a "data point" side of things.

Let's put different oil grade to the side for a moment. Would logic dictate that if correct oil grade and spec was used at recommended interval, any failure was not due to the oil itself and that leaves either design, assembly or component material defect?

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