Max Tow Package Availability? Now a Max Payload thread

[ShadowsPapa]

I don't think the Overland with max tow is impossible. The wider axles and 4.10's would easily allow it to tow just about as much as the Sport S Max Tow. My suspicion is that in doing their market analysis, Jeep determined that the percentage of Overland buyers that would want max towing capacity was not high enough for them to justify them making it an option. In this market with one truck, surely they had to keep options to what the majority would buy and clearly it wasn't in the cards for the Overland. I think of the Overland like I think of the Sahara. Most people who buy the Sahara don't off road them, and most Overland buyers likely won't tow or off road them.

Bingo - you hit my contention/thoughts perfectly. It isn't that it's heavy or can't be done, FCA didn't WANT to do it. There's no difference making it impossible or even impractical. The abilities are there, the weights fine, in fact, the same as a basic Sport/Sport S.
It's marketing - it didn't fit their game plan.
They are close to wrong about "most Overland buyers likely won't tow........" - I agree perhaps most if that's defined at 51%, but if they visited Iowa, people with luxury level pickups and SUVs DO tow - huge campers. Camping is a big thing here - and Lake Red Rock, Saylorville, etc. - it's not just beat-up old trucks towing and putting boats in the lakes. And to tow across the country - you want the NAV, the nicer seats and such. I've seen some very nice Wranglers hauling boats a lot taller and longer than the Jeep was. Iowans tow things.

Max tow in an Overland - it would be my ideal truck, bar none. It would be perfection - the ability to drive from here to Colorado Springs or PA, or IN with some comforts, towing a load.
Apparently they found most Jeep owners don't leave their own state. That may well be the case. In fact I never have seen a Wrangler or similar Jeep from any state other than Iowa IN Iowa. Grand Cherokees, yeah - all the time. You can't argue against marketing as much as you may dislike it because it's a science, it's psychology, it's trying to argue profits and human nature. So - in that case, what can I do?
Enjoy my new truck!!!! That's what! And boy I look for any excuse to drive that thing, too.......

Anyway, you hit my whole point - it wasn't an engineering limit, a design limit, a physical limit like weight due to the accessories.
It was marketing.

If there's ever a way to retrofit parts to get the towing and payload up a tad, I'll be all over it. I'll be right there in line to get the parts.
I LOVE THIS TRUCK.

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[Tim]

That is the game of sales - it becomes difficult to limit your wants versus needs - I knew what I wanted and I know the workarounds to what I need to add - Love the gladiator

I am more than fine with how it worked out. I love my Rubicon and have no regrets. I'm just not so sure that FCA didn't see a demand for "Max Tow" Overlands. They would rather sell Rubicons. That is essentially what the Rubicon is plus a few more goodies. I'd venture a guess that if you took off all the extras that make the Rubicon a Rubicon (lockers, rock rails, etc. not leather, LEDs etc) you would end up at nearly the same Payload/Towing numbers as the Sport S Max Tow.

 

[WXman]

Except, the Overland is NOT the same weight as a Sport. Look at all the options the Overland has that Sport doesn't. Those things add up. Could Jeep have put the 32-spline wide-track axles under the Overland? Sure. But then you'd have a Rubicon minus the lockers, sway bar, and t-case. And it would still have 35% less payload than the Sport does just like the Rubicon. So you still couldn't have a Max Towing package.

Does FCA purposefully design trim levels and packages to try and push people up the ladder? Of course they do. All automakers do. But none of that negates the fact that high luxury and maximum capability cannot go hand-in-hand. Those two things are mutually exclusive.

Again, this is true of ALL trucks. A fully loaded FX4 F-150 with leather, NAV, lockers, premium audio, panoramic sunroof, etc. is always going to have a lower payload and towing rating than a XLT F-150 with cloth seats and a FM radio, all other configuration the same. That's just how GVWR works.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Except, the Overland is NOT the same weight as a Sport. Look at all the options the Overland has that Sport doesn't. Those things add up. Could Jeep have put the 32-spline wide-track axles under the Overland? Sure. But then you'd have a Rubicon minus the lockers, sway bar, and t-case. And it would still have 35% less payload than the Sport does just like the Rubicon. So you still couldn't have a Max Towing package.

Does FCA purposefully design trim levels and packages to try and push people up the ladder? Of course they do. All automakers do. But none of that negates the fact that high luxury and maximum capability cannot go hand-in-hand. Those two things are mutually exclusive.

Again, this is true of ALL trucks. A fully loaded FX4 F-150 with leather, NAV, lockers, premium audio, panoramic sunroof, etc. is always going to have a lower payload and towing rating than a XLT F-150 with cloth seats and a FM radio, all other configuration the same. That's just how GVWR works.

Sorry, it's just not the case. And you are twisting things now saying "all other configuration the same" - because the Overland does NOT HAVE THE SAME CONFIGURATION.
Back to basics - show me the differences between a Sport and Overland that add up to 400 pounds.
Show me that the springs and axles under the Overland are the exact same as Sport - maybe a dealer here can look up the springs for a Sport S (not with max tow) and an Overland and compare part numbers. Same for axles.
A truck can have different axles and springs and give the loaded truck MORE payload and towing than another with less equipment. And check the specs - check the weight ratings.
Go look at the FCA chart - GVWR is identical between Sport and Overland - I'm not pulling this out of the air. I looked it up.
The Sport also sits LOWER than the Overland - I measured several on a lot. So there are differences in springs at least.

It absolutely is NOT all about weight. I've been a mechanic for over 4 decades and have worked on more truck suspensions than almost anyone here - maybe even anyone here. I dunno - there could be a truck mechanic here for all I know. I've worked on trucks from the Chevy Luv all the way to the big boom trucks used by power companies.
Suspension, axles, springs, especially springs, the loads the axles can take (thus the different AXLES that were under my Chevy and Ford allowing them to haul more)

I bought the Ford truck I had because it was fully loaded AND had bigger axles and springs and carried more payload than any other truck they had on the lot. It was due to the axles and springs under that truck. I know because when I went to repair the front hubs I found out the hard way they were the biggest axles Ford put under such a truck. The payload and towing were not due to the truck being less loaded with options because it had power everything. That truck was loaded with options and standard equipment. Yet the payload was higher than the others.
You are trying to tell me that my Ford could only haul more because it was lighter, had less equipment?
I know otherwise- I KNOW that truck had heavier axles and springs. And it was loaded with power everything. It had the highest payload rating of any other Ford on the lot of that series.

How about my Chevy Silverado? It was a fully loaded truck with everything you could get except the NAV option (2 grand back then) and yet the payload was well up there as well as towing - why? Because of the suspension and axles under it. It was a special package, chrome mirrors, chrome grill, extended cab, tilt leather wheel, leather heated seats, power windows and locks, rear window defrost, heated mirrors. But it could haul a load because of the fact it had different suspension under it (and likely why I sold it for a very nice number to a dealer in the end)

The Overland simply doesn't have the suspension the others have. It's made more for ride. The early marketing material and reviews I read even talked about larger diameter axles in the differentials of the others - not sure how factual that was.........

So far no one has shown how the Overland has so much more equipment - naming said equipment - that add up to the differences in payload - so I'm looking for Overland differences that add up to 400 pounds. Standard Overland stuff - NOT options.
And no one has shown me the axles and springs are the same. Maybe someone will look those up for me.
For the overland it's more about what options are AVAILABLE. Not what it comes with. It comes with cloth seats. The cold weather group is NOT standard, it's an option. Where's the 400 pounds come from?
IF the Overland had the EXACT SAME springs and the EXACT SAME axle assemblies, then yes, the difference is weight - but the Overland equipment differences over a sport - no one has shown my 400 pounds yet. That's a lot of weight difference.
You can't talk OPTIONS, you must talk only what's standard on Overland. Premium sound, the 8.4 system, leather seats, etc. are not standard.

 

[futzin']

I see no mention of the gear ratio difference.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Here we go - CURB WEIGHT. This is shown Rubicon Sport S Overland.
So if the PAYLOAD of the overland was lower by hundreds of pounds due to the extra WEIGHT of the Overland, it would show up here, correct? Because it's being said the "Overland is heavier with all of the equipment it has that the Sport/Sport S does not.
So here we go - Rubicon then Sport S then Overland CURB weights and this shows the real weight differences =

Curb Weight 5050 lbs. 4650 lbs. 4720 lbs.
(the curb weight of the automatic is 22 pounds higher - these are manual transmission weights)

Wow, the Overland is a whopping 70 pounds heavier than the Sport S!
So if the only difference was due to the weight of the vehicles - factory weights, then the Overland should rank hundreds of pounds heavier. And yet the specs for the Overland for payload are far more than 70 pounds less than the Sport S.
That means the Overland simply doesn't have the springs and axles and ratio to carry the weight.
Here's what Edmunds says the payload numbers are.......again, Rubicon, Sport S and Overland in that order

Maximum Payload 1200 lbs. 1600 lbs. 1140 lbs.

So the Sport is 1600, the standard Overland is 1140 pounds payload
That's 460 pounds less payload and yet the Overland weighs only 70 pounds more.
So why 390 pounds less payload?

Springs and axles, folks - FCA COULD DO IT, they just chose not to.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I see no mention of the gear ratio difference.

You are correct there, too. I found with the Silverado that those who had trucks just like mine but with the lower gear ratio also had higher payload and towing numbers. The Overland has what, 3.74 or something like that? That means the engine is working harder to haul that payload than a Sport or Rubicon.

 

[Gatorized]

Sounds like you need to grab a set of rubicon take-offs for the springs and then find someone who has swapped out the rubicon axles for beefier units.

 

[Hosstyle]

so my Sport S says it has heavy duty shocks, heavy duty cooling and the wider Dana M210 and M220 axles but 3.73 gears. Is this a normal Sport S setup with just a regular tow package? If so what is the tow rating?

 

[Gatorized]

so my Sport S says it has heavy duty shocks, heavy duty cooling and the wider Dana M210 and M220 axles but 3.73 gears. Is this a normal Sport S setup with just a regular tow package? If so what is the tow rating?

Post your VIN and we can look how it is configured.

 

[Hosstyle]

1C6HJTAG6LL104368

 

[Gatorized]

It doesn’t say ‘wide’ axles. So just std tow package.

 

[Gatorized]

ABR TRAILER TOW PACKAGE
• 240 AMP ALTERNATOR (BAL)
• CLASS IV RECEIVER HITCH (XFH)
• HEAVY DUTY ENGINE COOLING (NMC) • TRAILER HITCH ZOOM (XNQ)

AJQ MAX TOW PACKAGE W/ 4.10 AXLE RATIO • 240 AMP ALTERNATOR (BAL)
• 245/75R17 BSW A/T DUELER TIRES (TTH)
• 110MPH VEHICLE MAX SPEED CALIBRATION (JJ3)
• 4.10 REAR AXLE RATIO (DMF)
• ANTI-LOCK 4-WHEEL DISC HD BRAKES (BR6)
• CLASS IV RECEIVER HITCH (XFH)
• DANA M210 WIDE FRONT AXLE (DJF)
• DANA M220 WIDE REAR AXLE (DRF)
• DAYTIME RUNNING LAMP SYSTEM (LMX)
• GVW RATING - 6250# (Z1B)
• HEAVY DUTY ENGINE COOLING (NMC)
• MOLDED-IN-COLOR FENDER FLARES (2-PC) (MM2) • TRAILER HITCH ZOOM (XNQ)
(*) Package AJQ includes package ABR content

 

[Hosstyle]

I have everything above except my axles don't say wide, 4.10 gears, I don't have the max speed calibration or the 2 pc fenders. so those 4 things bring the tow rating from 4500# to 6000#?

Thanks

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Sounds like you need to grab a set of rubicon take-offs for the springs and then find someone who has swapped out the rubicon axles for beefier units.

Heck, wouldn't a Sport S be more closely related to Overland - I'd think swap in the stuff from a Sport S with max tow would increase the payload at least on an Overland. The Rubicon would have the locking axles and so on - overkill for me - or......... maybe not.

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