$2000 upcharge out of the blue for mojave near me....

[MPMB]

Friend just bought a new Audi, he said they were basically “take it or leave it” someone else will come in behind you willing to pay what they are asking.

And I don't see this trend stopping, since I've been hearing that manufacturers are going to be limiting production runs for the foreseeable future.

Around me, there's a JT Willys that's listed more than what my Rubicon was. The only thing it has over my JTR is the AUX switches and colored fenders.

Unless 80%+ of buyers stop putting up with buying cars, prices won't drop.

Sponsored

 

[Matts4313]

Pay what you want. Don't buy if you don't want. Blaming the Boomers for a free market?

Boomer style business? Really? Boomers invented it? I didn't know that, thanks for the info. Learn something new everyday.

Boomer or not, its very clear that the car buying process was stacked in the dealers favor for the past 100 years, until this new generation came in -gave them the middle finger - and made the car buying process 100% easier for consumers.


I remember when I started to think about buying my first car in the late 90's. My mom literally bought me a book on how not to get totally f***'d by a dealer. Think about that. 25 years ago you had to go to barnes and noble, plop down 20 bucks, read a 250 page book, practice with your friends on how to not get scammed or fall into sales traps... just to go give a company $25k for a car.


Now, you literally type "Gladiator forums" into your phone while taking a poop and you walk away with 8% below invoice from the dealers on this site + you can literally submit your current vehicle for trade offers nation wide.


I dont care what your age is - this new generation is making America better than it has ever been. God Bless American ingenuity and resolve. We taught our kids to make a better world - and they went out and they did it.

 

[MPMB]

Boomer or not, its very clear that the car buying process was stacked in the dealers favor for the past 100 years, until this new generation came in -gave them the middle finger - and made the car buying process 100% easier for consumers.


I remember when I started to think about buying my first car in the late 90's. My mom literally bought me a book on how not to get totally f***'d by a dealer. Think about that. 25 years ago you had to go to barnes and noble, plop down 20 bucks, read a 250 page book, practice with your friends on how to not get scammed or fall into sales traps... just to go give a company $25k for a car.


Now, you literally type "Gladiator forums" into your phone while taking a poop and you walk away with 8% below invoice from the dealers on this site + you can literally submit your current vehicle for trade offers nation wide.


I dont care what your age is - this new generation is making America better than it has ever been. God Bless American ingenuity and resolve. We taught our kids to make a better world - and they went out and they did it.

Only because you believe that the consumer is getting a good deal. What people who claim the "younger generation is making it easier" is the fact that auto prices have increased continuously, and sometimes drastically.

Majority of people don't know how retail sales work. For example, I traded in my Sportage years ago for $7500. Dealer turned around and listed it for $13,999, which was slightly more than similar listings. Haggle room. At the base level, one has to assume vehicles are sold at 100% markup. Meaning it cost $10k to build, $20k to sell. But we know that's not true across the board.

The cost of building a Chrysler car is close to the production cost of a Mercedes Benz. Yet M-B are more money and higher quality. This was discovered after MB bought Chrysler.

Manufacturers are still making billions, if not trillions, off sales and credit. Because consumers are getting less choice in pricing fluctuations in the vehicle market.

Then add in the cashbacks, dealer kickbacks, etc., you can only come to the conclusion that there is a significant markup on vehicles.

So instead of selling something at MSRP of $61,495, a dealer marks the price down to $55,495. The consumer "saves" $6k right off the bat. The perceived deal makes customers feel good. Even though the vehicle likely costs $25,000-30,000 to build. For "invoice" pricing, it may go for even less. I'd bet today's "invoice" pricing is really what we used to call the MSRP. And everyone should know that "invoice" pricing is a misnomer, it's really not what dealers pay for the vehicles.

Whatever they are discounting off invoice - 6% or 8%, I bet that's only 1/2 of what they can mark down.

Now that we have information - everyone has information - dealers can informally price fix inventory. Oh look - a dealer in Idaho is $2k cheaper than us. Let's mark ours down $1500 for a week. Oh, this model is $45k and we're selling it at $43k, let's bump it up a bit.

New dealer disrupters like Carvana/Carmax/Vroom are focusing on volume. They also remove the haggle. And when I see used cars listed on these sites, they're usually $2000-2500 more than at a dealer with a comparable model. And that's before shipping charges.

The Gen X & Millennials may have made car buying easier through apps, but definitely not cheaper. It's now a commodity. While we have a choice on where we can buy, the price has been artificially increased to capture that "value" of convenience.

 

[sunrise089]

I dont even know what you are trying to say. Are you attempting to suggest that manufactures are not going to take advantage of shortages by raising the MSRP? Because if so, I bet the maximum amount.

I think there will be no shortage come 2025 and no shortage-related price impacts. I think from 2022->2025 inflation-adjusted MSRP raises will track regular historical rates of increase and not spike in such a way that someone would have been better off buying a 2021 above MSRP. Basically I don't think car prices are going to "skyrocket" in any meaningful way outside of the 2021-maybe-2022 shortage period.

 

[john#21]

Well today was the day I was going to look at a black mojave and on the way to look at it I noticed a 2k price increase overnight on the website and the truck is bone stock with no dealer installs. Did i miss out waiting? Few days to go see this. How long do you think this price gouging is going to last this is crazy. Should I just wait a year or 2 for this to calm down ?

Here ya go OP. Come to Texas and drive it home.

 

[john#21]

That dealer has 7 on the lot ranging from 54- 57 on the Mo-haves

 

[Matts4313]

I think there will be no shortage come 2025 and no shortage-related price impacts. I think from 2022->2025 inflation-adjusted MSRP raises will track regular historical rates of increase and not spike in such a way that someone would have been better off buying a 2021 above MSRP. Basically I don't think car prices are going to "skyrocket" in any meaningful way outside of the 2021-maybe-2022 shortage period.

The shortage will be over long before 2025, but the effects of the shortage will linger. As for MSRP raises, I guess that will be easy to spot over the next year. But people on here mention they got "$10k dealer discount" when they bought last year, which has now become a ~$2-5k dealer mark up, tells me (and Jeep) that the MSRP needs to be adjusted up ~10-20%

 

[badger719]

Right now Carvana and Vroom are high on VC funding so they can overpay for used cars. At some point they are going to collapse spectactularly. While its a good idea, I question their long term viability.

 

[DirkG]

I think there will be no shortage come 2025 and no shortage-related price impacts. I think from 2022->2025 inflation-adjusted MSRP raises will track regular historical rates of increase and not spike in such a way that someone would have been better off buying a 2021 above MSRP. Basically I don't think car prices are going to "skyrocket" in any meaningful way outside of the 2021-maybe-2022 shortage period.

^ *This*. Keep in mind this chip shortage is a temporary bump affected by a much unexpected lower supply with still a static demand.

Production will not be artificially limited as once the chip supply chain is corrected, production will ramp up to normal. Vehicle production means jobs. Vehicle production means sales. Sales please shareholders. Ford doesn't want to scale back F150 production so it can make $500 more on fewer trucks. It will maximize production to make as many trucks as production allows.

Edit: and to the OP, yes, for me personally I would ride this roller coaster out before buying a new or used vehicle (if you can).

 

[Matts4313]

The Gen X & Millennials may have made car buying easier through apps, but definitely not cheaper. It's now a commodity. While we have a choice on where we can buy, the price has been artificially increased to capture that "value" of convenience.

Base Honda Civic from
1980-1990 was a 250% increase
1990-2000 was a ~28% increase
2000-2010 was a ~21% increase
2010-2020 was a 25% increase

F150
80-90 87%
90-00 36%
00-10 16%
10-20 28%

My quick google search tells me that your hypothesis is incorrect, using the "standard" vehicles. Prices are definitely cheaper than before when indexed for inflation and growth rates.

 

[rayzjeep]

This is why people hate car dealers...and call them stealerships...I can't wait for the day I can just buy and finance a Jeep online and have it delivered. Just cut the middle man out already!

 

[sunrise089]

My quick google search tells me that your hypothesis is incorrect, using the "standard" vehicles. Prices are definitely cheaper than before when indexed for inflation and growth rates.

We're arguing about 2022-2025 but I definitely agree here. And vehicles are far, almost unbelievably, larger, safer, more comfortable, etc. Yes some things have been lost at the edges (and given I have a Honda S2000 in my garage which I still have no real viable replacement path for I do mourn the losses) but on balance things are fantastic and getting better each year.

I'll also share my very favorite vehicle trends over time example: the Subaru WRX. The vast majority of cars 'ratchet up' each generation, getting larger and more powerful, and eventually seeing new models slot into the segments they used to occupy (for example a RAV4 used to be an entry level compact SUV but next year it won't be the smallest or even second smallest Toyota SUV offering, but the third). Meanwhile the WRX has been comparatively unchanged - it slots into the same segment, it has almost the same powertrain, etc. This means that relatively speaking the WRX has gotten 'worse' versus some potential competitors, but it's also gotten MUCH cheaper. In 2002 a WRX cost $24,520, equivalent to almost $38,000 today. A 2021 WRX, drastically better than a 2002 despite no major changes (small yearly changes still matter in aggregate) costs $27,495. To me that's astounding. When I hear people say "cars are too expensive these days" I just don't get it - maybe they're too expensive if you drove a 1995 Accord and were perfectly happy with that level of size, power, and equipment. But the modern equivalent of a 1995 Accord isn't a 2021 Accord, it's a subcompact offering which costs less than $20k, while inflation-adjust the 1995 Accord cost $33k.

Progress is amazing.

This is why people hate car dealers...and call them stealerships...I can't wait for the day I can just buy and finance a Jeep online and have it delivered. Just cut the middle man out already!

This day will be terrible for informed buyers with time-flexibility though.

The shortage will be over long before 2025, but the effects of the shortage will linger. As for MSRP raises, I guess that will be easy to spot over the next year. But people on here mention they got "$10k dealer discount" when they bought last year, which has now become a ~$2-5k dealer mark up, tells me (and Jeep) that the MSRP needs to be adjusted up ~10-20%

Here's the crux of where we disagree: 2000s Ford Thunderbirds and even PT Cruisers sold for over MSRP at times. Broncos are selling over MSRP now. I see these as, and I think almost all automotive industry history has shown these to be, short-term blips which tell us almost nothing about long-term supply and demand. Dealerships want us to think they do, and anxious or excitable people on forums want us to over-react, but both those groups just fade away once the trends revert to the long-term averages. Think of how much has changed during COVID - think of how expensive masks and hand sanitizer used to be and how some people urged everyone to stock up. Think of the market selloff last spring. And empty hotels and planes, empty stadiums. Almost all of it has regressed heavily to the mean. You couldn't easily get a Nintendo Switch in early 2020, now you can. You'll be able to get a PS5 easily in a year too. Wranglers and Gladiators are no different.

 

[MPMB]

Base Honda Civic from
1980-1990 was a 250% increase
1990-2000 was a ~28% increase
2000-2010 was a ~21% increase
2010-2020 was a 25% increase

F150
80-90 87%
90-00 36%
00-10 16%
10-20 28%

My quick google search tells me that your hypothesis is incorrect, using the "standard" vehicles. Prices are definitely cheaper than before when indexed for inflation and growth rates.

When wages have remained relatively stagnant, inflation makes everything more expensive. It's a rare case when inflation happens and prices stay the same or decrease. That's because the producers of goods will adjust profit margins for market share. Look at DVD/BR movie prices. New releases cost the same now as they did years ago. $19.99 and $24.99. You'll see $30+ for special features/extra copies. Because they were cheap to produce to begin with, and as technology advanced, more people bought the new technology, increasing the market.

Econoboxes remain "cheap." My Golf GL was $14k. Today, with better technology options, the base Golf goes for $23.5k.

2010 Raptor: Base price = $38,995; comfortably optioned = $43,300.
2021 Raptor: Base price = $64,145; comfortably optioned = $82,980. (ford.com)
https://www.edmunds.com/ford/f-150/2010/road-test-specs1.html

I just wish I could go back in time and buy a '69 Camaro off the lot for $3k.

 

[DLAW]

I never want to buy a car off the lot again. There are so many bait and switches, and confusing tactics they use to make the experience stressful and exhausting, so you break down and just pay the extra money at some point.

I ordered mine custom from Leon at Criswell. The only downside is the wait. But the upside is getting exactly what you want and for a price that is often better than anything on the lot. You don't pay for a single item that you didn't want.

Research the "below invoice" postings here. The beans are spilled on the pricing for every single line item that can be found on a window sticker. Download the sheet. You make your list, you check it twice, and it doesn't matter if you have been naughty or nice. You will get exactly what you asked for before Christmas. No bait and switch. Stress Free. No haggling. Just clear cut and dry, the dealer says I will give you X% under invoice. I got 7% below with Leon, but that was a year ago. You may also have to order from a dealer that is several hours away from your region in order to get a better "below invoice" percentage. These deals are very regional. I'm in Delaware and it's really bad here. No such thing a deal in this state on Jeep. Criswell was a 2 hour drive and they are a sponsor here.

Now, on the other side of this advice, you can learn "what if I ordered this Jeep on the lot for x% under invoice". Then the price should be y. Maybe you can take that as a bargaining chip on the lot. Good luck and don't let FOMO get the best of you.

 

[sunrise089]

When wages have remained relatively stagnant, inflation makes everything more expensive. It's a rare case when inflation happens and prices stay the same or decrease.

I had a longer response but I deleted it. In short wages are actually up considerably over the past decade. Additionally most workers move into better roles over time which sees their personal situation improve faster than aggregate wage numbers show. Meanwhile the quality of goods and services received is far superior.

I just wish I could go back in time and buy a '69 Camaro off the lot for $3k.

But back then $3k was equivalent to $23k now, and that's what a Camaro costs! And a 2021 will destroy a 1969 base-to-base in any category aside from styling.

Sponsored