3.6 pentastar 2020 major problems - Is the newer engine better in 2025 etc.

[Austin S]

Surprised they told you it was ok to drive while you waited on the part. I have read that all the metal fragments circulating in the engine as the cam and rocker wear down can end up leading to needing a new engine. Hopefully that’s not what is going on with yours.

Got the tick myself this week. 2020 gladiator with 117k miles. Bleep’n Jeep!

My car needs right intake cam and rockers replaced. Part is on back order and whenever it comes will be $2200 for the job. Service writer said he cannot guarantee that the other side won’t go out after. So that got me thinking maybe go the new engine route. A remanufactured engine, not installed at the dealer, was going to run around 10k. But they come with 3 year 100k mile warranty. I am going with the repair route hoping that it for a while, but posts like yours make me question the decision.

Ahh shoot. If your paying cash I'm curious if you should pay a shop to put an actual reliable engine in there for engine swap. Think the hemi is better and even like a ls3 or Cummins crate would be better. Resale would tank if it's another brand like Chevy though.

But if you get new rockers you would get warranty on those rockers as well. And if that doesn't work it might pay for new engine perhaps? Look into the warranty for those.

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[Austin S]

In researching remanufactured engines, I came across 2 companies. Jasper and Fraser. I don’t know much more than what you can read in their MARKETING information on their website which makes it sound like they have made improvements to them.
I noted you can also get one through allmoparparts.

Do you think jeep would replace the engine with one of those companies or ones that they have remanufactured from Mopar I'm guessing? I'm guessing mopar wouldn't make improvements as I feel like the design is just flawed in general and I feel like they gave up on fixing it? I found a lawsuit against the lifter issues with the pentastar and then just ignoring it and keep replacing it, curious if that's still a thing.

 

[JTmac]

I don’t have a lot of knowledge regarding rebuilt engines. Not sure of what precisely would be different about a getting one from Mopar and Jeep dealer versus another company. I see that Mopar offers similar 3year 100k warranty. From what I understand there is only one maker of the cam. Rockers not sure. So the point of failure that I experienced could be the same in both.

Rubitrux and Americas Most Wanted offer V8 HEMI swaps. For a 5.7 engine with new transmission, Rubitrux advertises around 30k installed. For that price I could get (3) 3.6’s installed. I have found the 3.6 adequate for my use.

If you go to Jaspers or Fraser website, you can find local installers to your area.

 

[sharpsicle]

Do you think jeep would replace the engine with one of those companies or ones that they have remanufactured from Mopar I'm guessing? I'm guessing mopar wouldn't make improvements as I feel like the design is just flawed in general and I feel like they gave up on fixing it? I found a lawsuit against the lifter issues with the pentastar and then just ignoring it and keep replacing it, curious if that's still a thing.

If Jeep is footing the bill for engine replacement, they use what they want to use, which is their own sourced stock. You don't get a choice, and they certainly wouldn't reach out for a 3rd party modified engine. If you want that, you'd have to foot the bill yourself.

As for that lawsuit, that was for the previous generation of engine. Not the ones currently in use today.

For what it's worth, this current 3.6 that we have in our trucks is considered to be one of the most reliable engines. Getting another dropped in would not be a problem in my view.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

If Jeep is footing the bill for engine replacement, they use what they want to use, which is their own sourced stock. You don't get a choice, and they certainly wouldn't reach out for a 3rd party modified engine. If you want that, you'd have to foot the bill yourself.

As for that lawsuit, that was for the previous generation of engine. Not the ones currently in use today.

For what it's worth, this current 3.6 that we have in our trucks is considered to be one of the most reliable engines. Getting another dropped in would not be a problem in my view.

I suspect their engines come from one of those other sources............ few actually do their own.

 

[Sandman 4x4]

Yeah, good catch. Too late for that.



Reman engines, short blocks, long blocks and so on aren't made in any specific year. As an engine is pulled and replaced, that engine goes in for remanufacturing. it's fully disassembled, wear parts replaced, any cylinder damage taken care of it possible, or the block trashed, heads trued, valves replaced, guides often get new sleeves, crankshafts are reground and oversize bearings used, like anyone like me would do rebuilding an engine in my shop - but in a factory type setting. If the cams are shot, they replace them - like the factory that builds the new engines, they take it that those new cams are ok. They don't run hardness or metallurgical tests on them.
It's like the factory where new engines are built, except they refurbish the used parts. Major parts are re-used, minor parts replaced.






You apparently have not read the dozens of other posts on this subject, the oil posts and so on.
Again, your "central Florida heat" aren't the issue - the engine operating temperature is going to be the same as mine - and that is what matters to the oil - not your external ambient temperature. That only counts on cold starts.
The front number matters as far as living in hot climates or colder morning climates, the back number has ZIP to do with where you live. Once the engine is at operating temperature, the oil only cares about that so unless your engine runs at 250 degrees, that back number won't matter. And I'd bet your engine operating temperatures are pretty much the same as mine.



You really don't understand engine oiling or hydraulic pressures, apparently. Where the oiling takes place is irrelevant. If it mattered, you'd be losing the rear main on most engines.
Go back and read where me, and a certain tech, have show how fast these build oil pressure - basically those parts get oil as quickly as it fires. There's no "last area" to it. These also start in low lift mode so that high lift area is not under any pressure during a start - there's no pressure to lock them in high lift mode. So your theory really holds no water at all.
Placement in the oiling system doesn't matter.
These have pressure as quickly as it fires.
The high lift lobes aren't under any pressure so wear isn't happening when it starts.
When you are driving - all parts are equally oiled because the pressure is the same throughout the system.
Sorry......... doesn't wash.

Ok for the critical critique that lurks in the shadows on this site, I made the grave mistake of not starting my last post on oils and their cold and warm ratings with a preface of “At first startups, ESPECIALLY when Cold, colder than Florida ever gets the 0w is not as critical as warmer climates. So sorry I’ll try to add that on as to not mislead anyone here looking for advice.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Not for anyone, not aimed at anyone, not pointed in any direction other than ->

For the lurkers - and the tens of thousands of non-members who hit these forums every week -

You'd be amazed at the people who search for info about problems or oils or whatever, never being a member, and finding posts, and taking it to heart that it's a fact - they see certain posts and go away seeing "gee, I really need to change oils because I read that..........."
Most forums have many thousands of visits each day well over the number of members.
It's not just me trying to correct the horrible misinformation out there about oil viscosities. There are hundreds of sites trying to correct myths that get perpetuated when people read forum posts and then go take it to another forum as fact.

The front number, the one before the W is for "cold starts" - weather below the 40s (F)
The back number, after the W, only matters for the engines operating temperature. Your climate has nothing to do with it. So ignore your climate for the back number. It will matter for extreme loads, towing heavy loads, hard use of the engine where you reach peak temperatures higher than typical operating conditions (oil can hit temperatures above engine operating temperatures - but again, climate doesn't matter)

As for that lawsuit, that was for the previous generation of engine. Not the ones currently in use today.

There's one law suit out there that lumps all Pentastar 3.6s together! They talk about "the 2020 having the same problem as the 2012 and they still haven't fixed it". That one should be tossed on pure stupidity. It's not the same issue or root cause. Perhaps same symptoms - similar parts need to be replaced, but the failures of the 2012-2015 engines aren't the same as the PUG engines. I laughed when I read the text of that thing.
And for the gen 1 engines - If I have my info correct, there is a fix - the follower roller has been redesigned from what I can tell. So if you have a JK 3.6 valve train failure and use the latest parts (since 2019), it should not happen again. Case dismissed LOL

 

[DAVECS2]

If you are having problems again chances are they did not replace the solenoids that trigger the high lift cam position. When you fail valve train these solenoids become sledged up with metal and debris, and then the cam does not phase correctly, thus the reason new parts fail soon after being installed. Cams that do not phase properly can cause a fair amount of detonation and misfire and cause a fair bit of damage to the catalytic converters.

The saving grace is the oiling and filter system is fairly robust, and I have yet to see any significant damage to ingesting the debris from failed valvetrain in the bearings.

If they fix it again it needs both intake cams, the followers, and all the intake rocker replaced, along with the the high lift oil activation solenoids, and the cam phasers need to be cycled through several cleaning cycles

Your seeing more power after a key cycle as you are resetting the misfire history that governs the timing reduction the engine gets as it misfires more and more. If you get in a high load low RPM situation with the cams malfunctioning and engine hot and the timing is not dialed back, you will get your new engine, or blow a coil pack apart.

The 3.6L with valvetrain problems, the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

If you are having problems again chances are they did not replace the solenoids that trigger the high lift cam position.

And most places won't even test for proper operation of those parts.

 

[Deleted member 67086]

Not for anyone, not aimed at anyone, not pointed in any direction other than ->

For the lurkers - and the tens of thousands of non-members who hit these forums every week -

You'd be amazed at the people who search for info about problems or oils or whatever, never being a member, and finding posts, and taking it to heart that it's a fact - they see certain posts and go away seeing "gee, I really need to change oils because I read that..........."
Most forums have many thousands of visits each day well over the number of members.
It's not just me trying to correct the horrible misinformation out there about oil viscosities. There are hundreds of sites trying to correct myths that get perpetuated when people read forum posts and then go take it to another forum as fact.

The front number, the one before the W is for "cold starts" - weather below the 40s (F)
The back number, after the W, only matters for the engines operating temperature. Your climate has nothing to do with it. So ignore your climate for the back number. It will matter for extreme loads, towing heavy loads, hard use of the engine where you reach peak temperatures higher than typical operating conditions (oil can hit temperatures above engine operating temperatures - but again, climate doesn't matter)


There's one law suit out there that lumps all Pentastar 3.6s together! They talk about "the 2020 having the same problem as the 2012 and they still haven't fixed it". That one should be tossed on pure stupidity. It's not the same issue or root cause. Perhaps same symptoms - similar parts need to be replaced, but the failures of the 2012-2015 engines aren't the same as the PUG engines. I laughed when I read the text of that thing.
And for the gen 1 engines - If I have my info correct, there is a fix - the follower roller has been redesigned from what I can tell. So if you have a JK 3.6 valve train failure and use the latest parts (since 2019), it should not happen again. Case dismissed LOL

“It's not the same issue or root cause.” So do we know what the root cause of the current gen Pentastar is? Do we actually know what the root cause is for any of the Pentastar valve train issues?? If you know what the root cause is for each gen is, I know I would be very interested in that. If you cannot state them here, then how can you say “it’s not the same issue or root cause?”

 

[ShadowsPapa]

“It's not the same issue or root cause.” So do we know what the root cause of the current gen Pentastar is? Do we actually know what the root cause is for any of the Pentastar valve train issues?? If you know what the root cause is for each gen is, I know I would be very interested in that. If you cannot state them here, then how can you say “it’s not the same issue or root cause?”

Easy -
The first generation Pentastar 3.6 did not have VVL.
The 1st gen had roller followers on a single cam lobe.
Their issue was the needle bearings in the rollers on the intake followers.

These engines are a PUG - Pentastar UpGrade engine. They have VVL
They also have rollers for the LOW LIFT portion of the intake followers while the high lift portion of the followers rubs on a cam lobe with NO rollers at all.
The rollers on the PUG don't fail.
The high lift portion of the follower and associated cam lobe fail.

First gen - full intake follower rollers using needle bearings, needle bearings failed.
PUG - rollers are fine. They do not fail. The high lift part fails - the part that rubs.

FCA has also replaced the first gen follower with a different roller design to address the issues in the first gen with the ROLLER NEEDLE BEARNGS failing.

Needle bearings are a touchy topic among performance people who run roller cams in their legacy/classic cars. Some companies did away with the needle bearings because they failed.

We know it's not the same cause because -
1st gen rollers had needle bearings that fail
2nd gen (PUG) do not see needle bearing failures in intake or exhaust.
The VVL high lift portion is what fails on the PUG - NOT the rollers

Same symptoms, same "fix" as far as replacing parts, but very different causes.

Lumping the first gen failures in with the PUG failures shows a lack of knowledge as far as what actually failed, and how very different they are.

You may have a cough and achy joints - and your neighbor may have the same while you have a common cold and your neighbor has pneumonia.
You both cough and ache, very different causes.

 

[Deleted member 67086]

Easy -
The first generation Pentastar 3.6 did not have VVL.
The 1st gen had roller followers on a single cam lobe.
Their issue was the needle bearings in the rollers on the intake followers.

These engines are a PUG - Pentastar UpGrade engine. They have VVL
They also have rollers for the LOW LIFT portion of the intake followers while the high lift portion of the followers rubs on a cam lobe with NO rollers at all.
The rollers on the PUG don't fail.
The high lift portion of the follower and associated cam lobe fail.

First gen - full intake follower rollers using needle bearings, needle bearings failed.
PUG - rollers are fine. They do not fail. The high lift part fails - the part that rubs.

FCA has also replaced the first gen follower with a different roller design to address the issues in the first gen with the ROLLER NEEDLE BEARNGS failing.

Needle bearings are a touchy topic among performance people who run roller cams in their legacy/classic cars. Some companies did away with the needle bearings because they failed.

We know it's not the same cause because -
1st gen rollers had needle bearings that fail
2nd gen (PUG) do not see needle bearing failures in intake or exhaust.
The VVL high lift portion is what fails on the PUG - NOT the rollers

Same symptoms, same "fix" as far as replacing parts, but very different causes.

Lumping the first gen failures in with the PUG failures shows a lack of knowledge as far as what actually failed, and how very different they are.

You may have a cough and achy joints - and your neighbor may have the same while you have a common cold and your neighbor has pneumonia.
You both cough and ache, very different causes.

So what is the root cause of the current GEN 3 failure?? I seem to recall that the previous gen needle bearing failures were predominantly on the passenger side intake bank, similar to the gen 3. If the previous gen was solely the needle bearings, wouldn’t it have occurred more evenly on either bank? It just seems like there is some issue that occurs on the passenger side bank that spans generations, and rocker arm type.

 

[DAVECS2]

The current generation 3.6L fails the high lift lobe on the cam. When it is in high lift mode, anything beyond 2700 rpm, the high lift cam is not roller it is friction based like and old school flat tappet.

Plenty of speculation around metallurgy, surface finish, and oiling needs. Many revisions of software have been implemented to control, oil pressure,cam position, and time spent at a given RPM, as well as active cleaning cycling of the cam phazers and the control solenoids.

My two cents: limit your time at high RPM, change your oil often, and if you run high rpm use a heavier oil.

 

[Toothgnasher]

My '19 Wrangler right bank had one cam completely rounded, and the rocker was flat by the time I was able to get them to acknowledge the issue. I'm surprised it wasn't misfiring. It sounded like a diesel; the tick was that bad.

So, I'm now picking up a JTDR this week. At least it's supposed to sound like a diesel!

The Pentastar has been around for a good couple of decades now; I don't see them having a fix for the issue until they bring in a clean sheet new motor build.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

So what is the root cause of the current GEN 3 failure?? I seem to recall that the previous gen needle bearing failures were predominantly on the passenger side intake bank, similar to the gen 3. If the previous gen was solely the needle bearings, wouldn’t it have occurred more evenly on either bank? It just seems like there is some issue that occurs on the passenger side bank that spans generations, and rocker arm type.

Gen 3?

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