Anyone else use this ATF in their Gladiator 8-speed?

[ShadowsPapa]

Unless you have a frame of reference, how would you know what the various fluids smell like? Anyone in a transmission shop will know unless it's their first day there. Anyone who has had hands-on and been told - that's what it smells like, would know.
My point is - unless you have that frame of reference - what the various normal or abnormal smells are, how can you tell?

So you send in a sample and it tells you that you have issues - what will you do? Replace it then and there? Start a savings account?
Continuously changing fluid won't reverse wear or clutches or disks that have been hot.
All you have is that "I've fried it". And it could go 30,000 more miles fine, or start having issues holding the clutches tight, or glazed clutches could start to slip.
That's my only point on lab testing transmission fluid. What are you going to do with the results? Come back here and say all is great, gee, look at my great lab report on my transmission?
Maybe come here and gripe about the fact it came back bad, and you swear you've done nothing wrong...

So - what do you do with the lab results? What will you do or not do differently?
Bad results? You think new fluid will fix elevated wear metals?
If this one came back bad and the new one wasn't so bad, you've really proved nothing at all about the fluid because for all we know, you didn't tow as often or as heavy, or certain other conditions were different, different temperatures, different loads and hills, shifted more often, less often.
It's not the same as engine oil. But even then - what do you do with the lab results?

Unless you are doing scientific comparisons under identical conditions or over long periods of time, I think people have some idea it's going to help them avoid catastrophe.

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[ShadowsPapa]

Laugh - but ya ain't answered the question.
What do you do with the lab results?
How is it helping you?

People have come in and asked "why do you do it" - maybe answer those who have asked why you do it.

Lab testing is after the fact. They tell you you have already caused damage, or - so far, you have not.

Fluid changes are preventative maintenance. They prevent damage.

The number of vehicle owners that send in ATF for analysis has to be quite tiny (unless you are a fleet operator)

I'm not saying "don't do it". Just asking - how is it helping you?
People here have asked about analysis and why people are doing it - so - why not tell 'em.

 

[DanW]

Laugh - but ya ain't answered the question.
What do you do with the lab results?
How is it helping you?

People have come in and asked "why do you do it" - maybe answer those who have asked why you do it.

Lab testing is after the fact. They tell you you have already caused damage, or - so far, you have not.

Fluid changes are preventative maintenance. They prevent damage.

The number of vehicle owners that send in ATF for analysis has to be quite tiny (unless you are a fleet operator)

I'm not saying "don't do it". Just asking - how is it helping you?
People here have asked about analysis and why people are doing it - so - why not tell 'em.

I have a buddy with 68k on his JT and he wants me to help him change his transmission fluid in the coming weeks. I´ll convince him to get a sample and send it for analysis.

Like I said before, I am sure the fluid that came out was serviceable and probably had a lot of life left in it. I´ve not abused this truck in any way and have not even come close to pushing its limits in extreme conditions. I´m not hard on this machine. Unlike my JL (manual), I am pretty easy on this one. When towing, for example, I accelerate smoothly and fairly gently. I don´t idle it much, at all, have disabled the ESS, and warming it up when cold means driving it, gently until the temps come up to normal. I´d bet that transmission would go a good long time if I never changed the fluid. But I enjoy maintaining my vehicles very well, and in return, they treat me well with few, if any, issues over their long lives with me, even with lots of off-roading, which this one has not seen much of.....yet.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

l. I´d bet that transmission would go a good long time if I never changed the fluid. But I enjoy maintaining my vehicles very well, and in return, they treat me well with few, if any, issues over their long lives with me

Following your adventures here (hitting some of your posts here and there), I have no doubt of your intentions and care for your vehicles. If I towed more - I'd reduce my service intervals for various things.

Since you will be doing another - or at least helping - take note of how he's used it, type of driving and use, towing or not, and his habits in the hills (does he manual shift it to control the up and down, up and down hunting), that sort of thing.
Note the color and smell of the fluid.
ANYONE who can do an oil change can pick up on how the various fluids will look and smell under various uses.
Take this as an opportunity! Check the "stuff" in the pan, when the pan is empty, wipe your finder along the inside of the bottom, check the corners of the pan, check the color of any deposits, consistency, how much there is, pay attention to the details. The pan and fluid can tell you a lot and I believe anyone with a good nose and eye can pick up on it - it just takes some "Examples" of each type of wear and condition.
This isn't something that only the most "elite" can learn - what's a normal look and feel and smell of the fluids.

 

[Hootbro]

A first factory fill transmission fluid oil analysis sample really is not going to baseline much other than if the fluid stayed in viscosity as the wear metal numbers are going to be high anyways from the break in. Still worth the data point in my opinion but any actionable measurements is not really going to come into play until the third or fourth sample analysis once you know what the in service baseline is after break in.

I took a transmission fluid oil analysis at 31K miles on my 2022 JT factory fill and that is pretty much all it told me. My only push to actually pull the sample was because of @Maximus Gladius claim of glycol contamination from the factory on his causing transmission failure. To date, his is the only one I have ever seen such data on.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

@Maximus Gladius I will tell ya I have owned auto's for the last 38 yrs. Changed every fluid in every single truck, car,motorcycle etc.. its true but by and large in My years of changing trans fluids none hold a true color and in Motor oils of all I have ever used and I mean in diesels and gas motors Amsoil tows the line the best and holds on longer than any other. I am a little OCD so check all the time nothing has compared. I have Amsoil in my wife's Mitsubishi, in my BMW & my 1900cc yamaha V-Twin and my daughter's Kia and also in my Jeep..
I'm a believer

I tried to find the pictures of the time my wife's JLU transmission was leaking. I had pics of the fluid drip on the end of my finger and it was brown after a short time, under a year and just highway driving on it, little shifting.
It's going to depend on the fluid, type, chemistry and so on. There's a post on BITOG where someone was saying their differential lube was problematic because it had changed color. One of the more "educated" people there pointed out that the fluid he was using turned dark because of the anti-oxidants used in it, nothing more.

 

[Stan H]

I tried to find the pictures of the time my wife's JLU transmission was leaking. I had pics of the fluid drip on the end of my finger and it was brown after a short time, under a year and just highway driving on it, little shifting.
It's going to depend on the fluid, type, chemistry and so on. There's a post on BITOG where someone was saying their differential lube was problematic because it had changed color. One of the more "educated" people there pointed out that the fluid he was using turned dark because of the anti-oxidants used in it, nothing more.

They all turn your correct. But the best will hold out the longest and hold viscosity better. On the amsoil speaking of my Jeep only and 130000 miles of changes (the first 5k was factory oil) long about 5000-5500 miles my oil pump pressure will drop by 1 pound pressure when oil is hot .
In my diesel truck it rarely differed . With 3 gallons of oil it just held up viscosity wise longer . But the oil would blacken in about 1000 miles no matter if I drove it easy or hard. After 5500miles the amsoil motor oil will be black in the Jeep.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Laugh - but ya ain't answered the question.

If it's to answer why I do it, one would only have to read back a few pages and notice the questions I post to understand why I look for data from a lab report and/or I'm seeking solid answers from someone that self promotes his long wrenching experience but hasn't answered them but gets upset wondering why this never ends. (that in itself doesn't answer anything either)

If my answering you is to somehow cause you to learn something, that would be futile as you've had many years to put yourself where you want to be and that's that. You come across grumpy and heels dug in and its exhausting. The topic of gaining knowledge through science concerning whats going on inside the transmission and the "cause and effect" of long run out transmission fluid with spent additives and measurable levels of oxidation vs shorter run fluids with healthy amounts of additives and no levels of oxidation and what this does to the clutches etc of the internals is of interest for me but you upset easy because your attention span doesn't want to play other than to get grumpy.

I've also said that this Mopar 8/9 ATF has been published as being both "full-syn" and "semi-syn" but my lab cant tell what it is unless they see oil come in that has "measurable levels of oxidation".

I have asked, WHY would i WANT to run my transmission oil out to the point oxidation can be measured? I've asked this and you nor anyone has answered it. Anyway, i'll come back to this tomorrow if I need to.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I've also said that this Mopar 8/9 ATF has been published as being both "full-syn" and "semi-syn" but my lab cant tell what it is unless they see oil come in that has "measurable levels of oxidation".

There's a good explanation of this in another thread - will try to find it......... it's because in the EU, the base oil used can't be considered in synthetics due to their rules.
In the USA - it's considered synthetic. In the EU, it can't be advertised that way.

Does it really matter? Not to me since it's sold and recommended by the creators of the transmission.

The topic of gaining knowledge through science concerning whats going on inside the transmission and the "cause and effect" of long run out transmission fluid with spent additives and measurable levels of oxidation vs shorter run fluids with healthy amounts of additives and no levels of oxidation and what this does to the clutches etc of the internals is of interest for me

You would have to follow many reports over a long time.
You aren't going to run out of, or have "spent additives" unless you go to extremes (which varies with the type of use).

I have asked, WHY would i WANT to run my transmission out to the point oxidation can be measured? I've asked this and you nor anyone has answered it.

Not sure what you are even saying there. How would you? How would that happen? Spooked because of the first transmission issues?
That's a real question? Follow the suggested numbers by ZF if you want a comfort zone and you are not going to have problems. Shorten the intervals if you use it harder. Suddenly there's a big thing on oxidation. Not sure where that's coming from.
You are the only one even mentioning it. Read it somewhere, or did the lab say something?

Oxidation happens with heat. So if you don't run too hot, there's little risk, and the additives live a long life.
Now we get into the black color (or looking muddy in color) and maybe a "burned smell".

As far as smell and color - be really careful as different fluids will react differently in color and smell as they heat (the cause of oxidation)
Some have said Valvoline's MaxLife smells awfully bad right out of the bottle, and Toyota had a fluid that changed a neat color when it was life-up.

One reason to not get 100% hung up on some numbers is some scientific testing I've read about where - aged fluid if not take to extremes, can actually help the friction disks grab, and be better at some things vs. new - and there was a huge difference in the two fluids used in this test (called only by 1 and 2, no brands)
There were hints that artificially oxidizing the fluids in a lab actually helped certain performance aspects.

I think sometimes people get hung up on certain numbers........... it's a very very complex topic and could take many pages. Some of the studies I have are pages long in themselves.

From what I have understood - oxidation starts right away......... unless you granny drive and never get it warmed up, i suppose. It happens with age, and excess heat increases the rate of oxidation. It's a function of the chemicals of the fluid combining with oxygen in the air. So you can't stop it, only slow it, and there will be some no matter what.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

A first factory fill transmission fluid oil analysis sample really is not going to baseline much other than if the fluid stayed in viscosity as the wear metal numbers are going to be high anyways from the break in. Still worth the data point in my opinion but any actionable measurements is not really going to come into play until the third or fourth sample analysis once you know what the in service baseline is after break in.

I took a transmission fluid oil analysis at 31K miles on my 2022 JT factory fill and that is pretty much all it told me. My only push to actually pull the sample was because of @Maximus Gladius claim of glycol contamination from the factory on his causing transmission failure. To date, his is the only one I have ever seen such data on.

What jumped out at me was the last line of the comment that said -
“(oxidized solids) are at the 0.1% limit, so it was a good time for an oil change.”

…and this measurable data point is what I’m looking for!

First off, oxidation is not your friend and it isn’t doing any good for the clutches and other internal parts that depend on a healthy additive pack.

Oxidation forms because of heat and the breakdown of additives and your sample is only 31k miles.! So now we have some data. We have my lab saying they can’t measure oxidation in my oil that was only at 13k miles (I did the conversion for y’all) and we have measurable amount with your 31k miles and now ask “when does oxidation start and do we want it to form in the first place?”

So then let’s assume we want the very best for our transmissions to last as long as mechanically possible, does this mean we are doing pan drops every 13k to 25k miles and if that’s the case I’d bet if oxidation can start to be measured at 25k + miles, it ain’t full synthetic.

So to answer @ShadowsPapa why do I do lab reports, it’s to find real usable data like this and respond with good maintenance practice.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

this mean we are doing pan drops every 13k to 25k miles and if that’s the case I’d bet if oxidation can start to be measured at 25k + miles, it ain’t full synthetic.

It's a matter of additive packages as well as anything else.
Doesn't have to be "full synthetic", especially not today. Look at the intervals ZF recommends for changes - they are still talking 80-90K or so with their own fluid. So ZF is lying, selling you a bill of goods because it's "not full synthetic" according to the EU, thus can't handle the miles?

First off, oxidation is not your friend and it isn’t doing any good for the clutches and other internal parts that depend on a healthy additive pack.

Yes, the additives, meaning a semi-synthetic will be fine. The biggest advantage of SOME base oils is the viscosity index.

I don't get the hang-up on synthetic vs. partial synthetic and so on.
If ZF says it's fine and it's used in millions and millions of vehicles many with way over 100,000 miles on them, and likely many of those have the original fluid, where's the problem?

 

[g2020]

Look at the intervals ZF recommends for changes - they are still talking 80-90K or so with their own fluid.

For normal driving, ZF's recommended interval is 93K mi (conversion rounded down from 93.2K mi). I consider this advice, from ZF, to be an extension of "the book". Please note that, from a warranty perspective, ZF is not part of Jeep or Stellantis.

For normal driving, the owner's manual says "life of the vehicle". This is from "the book".

For severe duty, including off-road use and/or trailer towing, I refer back to my survey of our recommendations: 42K mi +/- 5K mi (my estimate; apply this estimate based on vehicle usage)

Some Benefits of Testing
- This is just paraphrasing what Maximus Gladius said earlier in this thread
- The testing process, co-written with Maximus Gladius, is provided near the end of my post on ATF Equivalents

Fluid type: Through chemical (including oxidation) analysis, confirm whether MOPAR ATF is synthetic or semi-synthetic​

- This has already been answered from a regional policy perspective, but chemical analysis will satisfy the curiosity of some​

- For the purpose of maintaining the chemistry of the ATF (by using a ZF-approved ATF), fluid type doesn't matter​

​

Degradation threshold: Find mileage/duration threshold at which significant oxidation starts and degradation begins (the beginning of the end of the life of the fluid)​

- This will vary with vehicle usage, but data accompanied by a description of vehicle use can help others position their vehicles on a continuum of data points​

- Follow-up question: How long should a fluid be run once measurable oxidation has started to occur?​

​

Scientific method: As much as I trust my local mechanics, the towering & humble bastion of automotive knowledge on this forum, and other posts on the internet, a crowd-sourced data pool has the potential, for both normal driving and severe duty, to answer when it's too early and when it's too late to have the ATF tested or have a transmission service completed (a pan drop for experienced DIY folks)​

Also, the findings on increase in torque with some oxidation are interesting. This could set up a torque vs. longevity debate.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

For normal driving, ZF's recommended interval is 93K mi (conversion rounded down from 93.2K mi). I consider this advice, from ZF, to be an extension of "the book".

For normal driving, the owner's manual says "life of the vehicle". This is from "the book".

I figured 80-90 since most people put things off a bit and don't get to it right at the mark.

However, ZF also says that the fluid is good for life -

But that is tempered with "many factors influencing" - I prefer the 90K for ease of people "getting it" or understanding it.

Synthetic vs. semi-synthetic - there people are really picking things apart to the molecule.
The fact is - oxidation is more a function of additives. While synthetics tend to take heat better (there are exceptions to that in engine oils), a semi-synthetic has similar advantages. By the time you include the synthetic base and the additive package, you are so close as to call any differences for the typical user pretty much negligible. And if you follow engine oil at all, sometimes the other base has to be included in order to get the additives to blend in.
So I'm really lost on this picking apart - is the ZF fluid synthetic or semi-synthetic, as if the latter is a bad thing and you are a superior tech if you are running pure synthetic.
Shouldn't the fact that one of the most respected transmission designs in the world uses the fluid in question have any sway in the conversation at all, or do we as forum members know more than ZF, of know something they do not, so we pick apart is it synthetic or not??!

Also, the findings on increase in torque with some oxidation are interesting. This could set up a torque vs. longevity debate.

There's enough tech info and studies by independent organizations or people out there to put you to sleep for months. It's some really deep stuff and since the is the internet and people are already heels dug in in beliefs, I just posted enough to maybe get at least 1 or 2 to thinking - hmmmmmmm...........

As for me - sorry, can't help it. Born this way. Meds don't work, max doses of Adderall didn't do much, and I can't help my life's experiences. I'm hyper in all aspects of life, blame my mother, and her father before her. It's a thing in the wiring. Can't help have had certain advantages in life, or having been invited to MENSA by an Aussie member. It's me - take it or leave it. It's not personality, it's wiring and there's no solution.

I figured with your college thesis approach to things (not an insult, an observation) - 100 sources of info, trying to boil it down and so on, you'd appreciate seeing a snippet of one study out there on the effects of oxidation. It's a lot deeper and ironically, actually improves the surfaces of the steel clutch disks. It causes other negative effects, but............

In general, people should calm down about the transmissions and fluid changes. It's the internet where some who have no background have decided it's cool, or even necessary, to do very frequent changes, even as low as 30K miles, sometimes based on one finding in one report - ignoring what ZF, AMSOIL and many others state, or the reality of what's done out there in the world.
(Surveying forum posts and comments is going to get you into freak-out territory, but severe use in my experience with heat, heavy torque loads and so on, could be 40-50K, and will match what many books I have suggest)

 

[Stan H]

What jumped out at me was the last line of the comment that said -
“(oxidized solids) are at the 0.1% limit, so it was a good time for an oil change.”

…and this measurable data point is what I’m looking for!

First off, oxidation is not your friend and it isn’t doing any good for the clutches and other internal parts that depend on a healthy additive pack.

Oxidation forms because of heat and the breakdown of additives and your sample is only 31k miles.! So now we have some data. We have my lab saying they can’t measure oxidation in my oil that was only at 13k miles (I did the conversion for y’all) and we have measurable amount with your 31k miles and now ask “when does oxidation start and do we want it to form in the first place?”

So then let’s assume we want the very best for our transmissions to last as long as mechanically possible, does this mean we are doing pan drops every 13k to 25k miles and if that’s the case I’d bet if oxidation can start to be measured at 25k + miles, it ain’t full synthetic.

So to answer @ShadowsPapa why do I do lab reports, it’s to find real usable data like this and respond with good maintenance practice.

Conversely one could just practice good PM and skip Lab reports because even a bad lab report isnt going to stop the inevitable if it is about to take place.
I think about all this and what I feel is the correct approach . Is lab results at 10k mile intervals. Then it would give a true result based analysis as to how long one can go before a change is required.
Also it would mean every person should be performing a lab at every 10k if we was all going to collect data sufficient enough for each of our own driving and towing habits.
I for one am convinced that 30-40k is good and hope for the best.
Labs would be overloaded results hurried , mixed up. Etc..

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Conversely one could just practice good PM and skip Lab reports because even a bad lab report isnt going to stop the inevitable if it is about to take place.
I think about all this and what I feel is the correct approach . Is lab results at 10k mile intervals. Then it would give a true result based analysis as to how long one can go before a change is required.
Also it would mean every person should be performing a lab at every 10k if we was all going to collect data sufficient enough for each of our own driving and towing habits.
I for one am convinced that 30-40k is good and hope for the best.
Labs would be overloaded results hurried , mixed up. Etc..

And it’s ok to take the “mechanical approach” and set your dial to 30-40k mile pan drops or what ZF has stated is around the 90k miles or the dealership recommended 60k mile pan drop. It’s what makes you rest and feel good.

The other approach is let the lab indicate when to do the pan drop. It’s not a mechanical or time line indicator, it’s a chemical indicator.

As with @Hootbro 31k mile report, you’ll notice non of his wear metal numbers set off any alarms, it was the measurable oxidation that did, with suggestion a good time to change the oil.

We follow dials and numbers with everything …except when it comes to the transmission where were supposed to run it out way down the road to the point warranty expires before we do anything maintenance wise and the great manufacturer of it doesn’t want anything to do with it but we’re stuck with it.

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