Automatic Transmission fluid change interval s on 2021 JT

[ShadowsPapa]

I was going to change the fluid anyways because of the color alone. It was really dark and sparkly.

Dark and sparkly is a reason to change it regardless.

I don't consider the boron to be an issue. It's an additive used in EP lubes, oils, and transmission fluids.
It doesn't indicate wear.

This is from a European test outfit -
Boron is an additive metal commonly used in detergent additives and occurs in some EP or AW additive chemistries. Only when the boron level deviates more than 25% from the new oil or reference value should a concern be raised


Boron is used in extreme pressure compounds
and dispersants. It can also appear as
a contaminant as it can be used in the
manufacture of coolant conditioners.

Because of how it works, I expect the amount in the fluid to be higher in newer fluid than older fluid.
It's not from the transmission itself breaking down.
And if there's no other elements such as glycol, I'd not fret the boron.

So it's either present as an extreme pressure additive to protect the transmission, or as contamination from coolant.

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[Maximus Gladius]

From what I can tell the sample is compared to a transmission with 70k miles of normal wear (no overheating or towing).
Now I have more questions, lol. Was the 70k mile trans the same zf trans or just a random one that was tested ions ago?
If it wasnt the same zf trans, that would mean my #’s could be completely normal.
I was going to change the fluid anyways because of the color alone. It was really dark and sparkly.
aluminum: 63 avg 41
boron: 184 avg 133

I’ll try to ease some worry for you.
Attached are two transmission lab reports from a couple members here that were kind enough to have theirs lab checked and the third is a lab report of a fresh, out of bottle 8/9 Speed ATF so you can cross check with certainty what the numbers start with and compare where things went on your transmission.

As you can see, boron is an additive ZF has in much higher numbers than what your sample shows you. As Papa has suggested, ‘additives wear out’ as oil ages and heat becomes something from time to time so it is normal to see a drop in your numbers and in the other two reports.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

What is a serious indicator of wear is how high the copper and iron get. My first transmission that had a bad whine at 24k kms, then tanked at 32k, the copper and iron were off the charts! A simple math of the lab highlighted numbers (and pretend I never did a flush) these copper and iron numbers tells you that this transmission will grenade when copper reaches 906 ppm and iron reaches 1067 ppm. The terrible situation of having had to deal with this with FCA saying "there was nothing wrong with the transmission to have done an oil analysis in the first place" was a statement made in obvious error.

Ive seen lab results on a great running ZF 8HP transmission pan drop at 50k miles showing iron at 150 ppm. Copper was slightly behind.

So, if you reach my numbers, expect to have to pull over and get towed. If you stay well under my numbers, you'll be ok but compare your sample with that from the bottle.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

What is a serious indicator of wear is how high the copper and iron get. My first transmission that had a bad whine at 24k kms, then tanked at 32k, the copper and iron were off the charts! A simple math of the lab highlighted numbers (and pretend I never did a flush) these copper and iron numbers tells you that this transmission will grenade when copper reaches 906 ppm and iron reaches 1067 ppm. The terrible situation of having had to deal with this with FCA saying "there was nothing wrong with the transmission to have done an oil analysis in the first place" was a statement made in obvious error.

Ive seen lab results on a great running ZF 8HP transmission pan drop at 50k miles showing iron at 150 ppm. Copper was slightly behind.

So, if you reach my numbers, expect to have to pull over and get towed. If you stay well under my numbers, you'll be ok but compare your sample with that from the bottle.

Copper as in the "bearings" in these. They often have a Babbitt layer over copper, some are just copper. Fe needs no explanation.

 

[Gren71]

I appreciate all the reference material here. I requested a couple sample kits from blackstone labs and intend to send out a sample when i do my change.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I appreciate all the reference material here. I requested a couple sample kits from blackstone labs and intend to send out a sample when i do my change.

I know of some resources out there and I'm sure Hootbro has some excellent resources on hand - likely more and better, on how to read what you get back, and to make sure you pay attention to the important stuff and not get hung up on some of the other stuff.
I'll pick on boron. It's usually in a compound that's used for extreme pressure lube protection. By itself it's an ok thing, even good, because the fluids will have various additives for wear, scuffing, anti-oxidation, friction modifiers, things to stabilize viscosity and so on. But it's sometimes the combinations of things that can be what to look out for.
Real high boron WITH high glycol MAY (I stress "may") indicate a cooling system problem in some vehicles where coolant and AFT are in the same "device" - such as a transmission cooler. If it happened in my car with an in-radiator transmission cooler, I might be concerned. But then - you have to look further - is there ATF in the antifreeze? The highest pressure wins so some logic will help there.
Sometimes things alone don't mean a lot. But combinations may.
The first change will often be the worst for some materials because as you "burnish" the gears, wear them in, there's naturally more iron and other compounds involved. But after that, it should dwindle.
And of course - all that glitters is not gold......... LOL
Small flecks in the pan - pretty normal. A lot suspended in the fluid, hmmm.
It's hard to explain but after servicing or rebuilding or doing both to many dozens of transmissions, you can read the signs like a skilled hunter can read what they see in the woods to tell what's been where and how long ago.

 

[Gren71]

I know of some resources out there and I'm sure Hootbro has some excellent resources on hand - likely more and better, on how to read what you get back, and to make sure you pay attention to the important stuff and not get hung up on some of the other stuff.
I'll pick on boron. It's usually in a compound that's used for extreme pressure lube protection. By itself it's an ok thing, even good, because the fluids will have various additives for wear, scuffing, anti-oxidation, friction modifiers, things to stabilize viscosity and so on. But it's sometimes the combinations of things that can be what to look out for.
Real high boron WITH high glycol MAY (I stress "may") indicate a cooling system problem in some vehicles where coolant and AFT are in the same "device" - such as a transmission cooler. If it happened in my car with an in-radiator transmission cooler, I might be concerned. But then - you have to look further - is there ATF in the antifreeze? The highest pressure wins so some logic will help there.
Sometimes things alone don't mean a lot. But combinations may.
The first change will often be the worst for some materials because as you "burnish" the gears, wear them in, there's naturally more iron and other compounds involved. But after that, it should dwindle.
And of course - all that glitters is not gold......... LOL
Small flecks in the pan - pretty normal. A lot suspended in the fluid, hmmm.
It's hard to explain but after servicing or rebuilding or doing both to many dozens of transmissions, you can read the signs like a skilled hunter can read what they see in the woods to tell what's been where and how long ago.

I appreciate the guidance. I’ll definitely be posting it once i do it all and get the results in. Aside from personal curiosity, im going to use the same test as a barometer for if I need to have my dealership address the tranny before my 100k warranty expires. Ive still got 16k in it but I dont want to miss a chance if i have one.

i went to the philly auto show today and now its got me looking at rams and sierras again so hopefully this little bit of maintenance will give me piece of mind for the long haul with this jt.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I appreciate the guidance. I’ll definitely be posting it once i do it all and get the results in. Aside from personal curiosity, im going to use the same test as a barometer for if I need to have my dealership address the tranny before my 100k warranty expires. Ive still got 16k in it but I dont want to miss a chance if i have one.

i went to the philly auto show today and now its got me looking at rams and sierras again so hopefully this little bit of maintenance will give me piece of mind for the long haul with this jt.

Keep in mind - this is the internet. It's a support group. It's a place where problems will be concentrated at a far greater rate than the general public.
I'm not even hinting that there aren't any problems, not even suggesting that no one has had transmission troubles (for sure at least one has) or that they are perfect and all that, but it's magnified when you look here and in the FB groups. They are darned good transmissions.
Can't say "I promise you will NEVER have any trouble and a fluid change guarantees that" but it's not 'likely".
Ya got the miles ZF suggests, you have the ability to do the work. Hootbro gave beyond "good" info on these, do the sample, change the fluid and filter. My bet (value limited to one 6 pack) is that it's going to be fine - but you can be sure by doing what you were thinking of doing all along.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

My transmission has 12k kms on it and I can’t stand knowing all the break-in debris is in there floating around and plugging up the filter and magnet and just doing what it does best, the break-in debris scratches stuff up. It isn’t slippery so it’s job is to wear things out.

Anyway, over the past 12k kms, I’ve replaced 4 quarts of used with 4 quarts of new 8/9!Speed ATF and have done 3 oil lab samples. All showing marvellous numbers. This last time, I cleaned out the oil catch pan and wiped it down and sucked out a quart, 200 mls at a time and put in 200 mls new at a time and let it cycle a couple min before repeating.

This time I took notice of black rubbery and light grey ceramic bits I had sucked up and cool thing too, I sucked up a dime too! Here’s to lifetime oil that is good forever or at least until the transmission blows up.

Which fails first, the oil or the transmission. (Papa, would love to hear your answer here) Are we suppose to wait till the transmission says it’s in trouble or dies before we do anything? Should we wait till the oil is no good before doing anything about it? How would you know how the oil is if we don’t have it checked out? Labs do that.

I guess we can look at it, smell it, rub a bit around on our fingers and take a wild guess….

Adding to this post, I'm attaching the 3 lab results from sucking out 3 used quarts of the mopar 8/9 Speed ATF and adding 3 quarts of the same, from 1940k kms to 9231k kms over a 3 month period. 1 quart per month.

Excessive action?? Maybe but I love data points and one can see from the metal numbers captured, the third test shows a significant drop in wear compared to the first and second sample taken.

Ive seen lab results from one other pan drop done of a ZF transmission on a BMW done at 50k miles and the iron levels read 150 ppm with copper just behind.

My goal is that I slow down the unnecessary wear that doesn't need to happen by pulling out a single quart at a time, multiple times over an extended period of time and see if my efforts accomplish a better running and operating transmission than if things were just left alone for fate, chance, ignorance, lack of will, and debris crap to just do their thing.

I figured nobody else is doing it so let's see what happens. So far so good.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

The transmission contaminates the fluid and uses up the additives by heat. The fluid doesn't ruin the transmission (unless it's contaminated or the additives are gone - and guess how that happened - the transmission did it)
So you are chasing a chicken/egg thing.
If the fluid is so bad you need to keep swapping it out, your transmission is bad. (or it's being abused)
Fluid changes at recommended intervals (or less if heavy use and only the driver knows that - their call) are all that's truly needed.
If you REALLY want to go old-school, then 30K to 50K for a change is what would have been "recommended" back then with early fluids that weren't nearly as good.
If it was good for a 1970s transmission and the then-fluid, it's going to be waaay good for modern transmissions with total control over pressures and such and superior fluids.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

The transmission contaminates the fluid and uses up the additives by heat. The fluid doesn't ruin the transmission (unless it's contaminated or the additives are gone - and guess how that happened - the transmission did it)
So you are chasing a chicken/egg thing.
If the fluid is so bad you need to keep swapping it out, your transmission is bad. (or it's being abused)
Fluid changes at recommended intervals (or less if heavy use and only the driver knows that - their call) are all that's truly needed.
If you REALLY want to go old-school, then 30K to 50K for a change is what would have been "recommended" back then with early fluids that weren't nearly as good.
If it was good for a 1970s transmission and the then-fluid, it's going to be waaay good for modern transmissions with total control over pressures and such and superior fluids.

Well all this is "good practice" and something can be said for old school habits but this time I'm doing something different and taking a stab at keeping the oil "cleaner" and seeing what the lab data says. As I've said, no one else is doing this and I've seen other 50k mile data points so if, by the end of the day, I too pull data on my 50k miles oil sample and am well under someone elses "dont touch it" numbers, then I will think my experiment did a good thing.

 

[Hootbro]

The transmission contaminates the fluid and uses up the additives by heat. The fluid doesn't ruin the transmission (unless it's contaminated or the additives are gone - and guess how that happened - the transmission did it)
So you are chasing a chicken/egg thing.
If the fluid is so bad you need to keep swapping it out, your transmission is bad. (or it's being abused)
Fluid changes at recommended intervals (or less if heavy use and only the driver knows that - their call) are all that's truly needed.
If you REALLY want to go old-school, then 30K to 50K for a change is what would have been "recommended" back then with early fluids that weren't nearly as good.
If it was good for a 1970s transmission and the then-fluid, it's going to be waaay good for modern transmissions with total control over pressures and such and superior fluids.

Pretty much this.

There is such a thing as over maintaining something to the detriment of the item you are maintaining. Fleet managers of large vehicle fleets call it something like "Theory of Replacement" which basically states if you over maintain something, you incur needless costs upfront. If you fail to maintain it not enough, you incur larger costs sooner than expected. It is a balancing act.

 

[jac04]

My goal is that I slow down the unnecessary wear that doesn't need to happen by pulling out a single quart at a time, multiple times over an extended period of time and see if my efforts accomplish a better running and operating transmission than if things were just left alone for fate, chance, ignorance, lack of will, and debris crap to just do their thing.

I figured nobody else is doing it so let's see what happens. So far so good.

I like how you are thinking. I'm at 12k on my JT, so I'm starting to think about a partial fluid change, maybe this summer.

My JK automatic transmission calls for a fluid & filter change at 120k (60k severe service). At 20k, I did 3 consecutive partial fluid exchanges (3 quarts each) 25-50 miles apart. But, my JK is super simple because I can extract fluid through the dipstick tube.

How are you doing your partial fluid exchanges? I assume that you are using an oil extractor?

 

[Maximus Gladius]

I like how you are thinking. I'm at 12k on my JT, so I'm starting to think about a partial fluid change, maybe this summer.

My JK automatic transmission calls for a fluid & filter change at 120k (60k severe service). At 20k, I did 3 consecutive partial fluid exchanges (3 quarts each) 25-50 miles apart. But, my JK is super simple because I can extract fluid through the dipstick tube.

How are you doing your partial fluid exchanges? I assume that you are using an oil extractor?

I’m extracting through the fill hole using a 200ml oil suction syringe.

 

[Liftr]

I’ve read this whole thread, following your saga. Did I miss where your transmission was replaced? By FCA? Or did you buy one from the GM Dealer? Any update to the legal action?
Thanks

My transmission has 12k kms on it and I can’t stand knowing all the break-in debris is in there floating around and plugging up the filter and magnet and just doing what it does best, the break-in debris scratches stuff up. It isn’t slippery so it’s job is to wear things out.

Anyway, over the past 12k kms, I’ve replaced 4 quarts of used with 4 quarts of new 8/9!Speed ATF and have done 3 oil lab samples. All showing marvellous numbers. This last time, I cleaned out the oil catch pan and wiped it down and sucked out a quart, 200 mls at a time and put in 200 mls new at a time and let it cycle a couple min before repeating.

This time I took notice of black rubbery and light grey ceramic bits I had sucked up and cool thing too, I sucked up a dime too! Here’s to lifetime oil that is good forever or at least until the transmission blows up.

Which fails first, the oil or the transmission. (Papa, would love to hear your answer here) Are we suppose to wait till the transmission says it’s in trouble or dies before we do anything? Should we wait till the oil is no good before doing anything about it? How would you know how the oil is if we don’t have it checked out? Labs do that.

I guess we can look at it, smell it, rub a bit around on our fingers and take a wild guess….

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