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Bluetooth trailer brakes, fried wiring

Trickster

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So the manual button doesn’t communicate through the phones BT to the controller once set up? Interesting.
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I was pretty set on going with the factory break controller but they are 45 days backorder. After reading some comments here and elsewhere, I'm currently leaning toward the Curt Echo but I still have a few questions that I'd like to get answered.

I'm assuming the Echo uses the brake light signal to apply the break signal hence why it freaks out if you are using the hazard button. I guess the hazard switch in the app is fine as a workaround. What really puzzles me however is how the Curt Echo can provide the progressive braking. I assume it relies on accelerometers to detect the level of braking. Could somebody clarify if the accelerometers are in the Curt Echo itself and that it doesn't rely on those of the smart phone? How does that behave when going down a hill if you feather the brakes? Will it provide enough of a "jerk" to trigger the brake controller?
 

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I was pretty set on going with the factory break controller but they are 45 days backorder. After reading some comments here and elsewhere, I'm currently leaning toward the Curt Echo but I still have a few questions that I'd like to get answered.

I'm assuming the Echo uses the brake light signal to apply the break signal hence why it freaks out if you are using the hazard button. I guess the hazard switch in the app is fine as a workaround. What really puzzles me however is how the Curt Echo can provide the progressive braking. I assume it relies on accelerometers to detect the level of braking. Could somebody clarify if the accelerometers are in the Curt Echo itself and that it doesn't rely on those of the smart phone? How does that behave when going down a hill if you feather the brakes? Will it provide enough of a "jerk" to trigger the brake controller?
I cant say for certain if it uses the phone accelerometer or some internal one in the echo device its self. Ive actually sorta played with that function a bit and left the app open while just barely tapping the brakes. Not enough to cause the truck to dip or anything, and only moving maybe 10mph so not even a high rate of speed. The progressive breaking immediately activates with the slightest touch of the brakes. My best guess is maybe a combo of both the phone and the device its self.

I used the echo during my pull to Niagara falls and it was great with all the declines and didnt over brake right away or anything, and activated with little to no effort on the brake pedal.
 

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I was pretty set on going with the factory break controller but they are 45 days backorder. After reading some comments here and elsewhere, I'm currently leaning toward the Curt Echo but I still have a few questions that I'd like to get answered.

I'm assuming the Echo uses the brake light signal to apply the break signal hence why it freaks out if you are using the hazard button. I guess the hazard switch in the app is fine as a workaround. What really puzzles me however is how the Curt Echo can provide the progressive braking. I assume it relies on accelerometers to detect the level of braking. Could somebody clarify if the accelerometers are in the Curt Echo itself and that it doesn't rely on those of the smart phone? How does that behave when going down a hill if you feather the brakes? Will it provide enough of a "jerk" to trigger the brake controller?
Nope. Does not apply the trailer brake signal over the brake light circuit. No controller uses that to apply brakes. That is where a brake controller that is California compliant turns on your brake lights if you manually apply the trailer brakes with the button.

Most if not all "modern" brake controllers use acclerometers INSIDE the controller itself. None would ever use a cell phone for that. The Echo only uses the cell phone to configure it - or if you don't buy their button, I believe you can manually apply the trailer brakes with your phone but it has nothing to do with how it applies brakes. All of that must be central to the controller. You can set the Curt Echo up and leave your phone at home and the Echo will still function.

If you "feather the brakes" you are still changing speed - or not not changing speed and only using brakes to keep from GAINING speed, the trailer brake controller will do nothing. It must sense a change in speed or direction.
If you are going 70 and hit a hill and the vehicle starts to ramp up to 75 and you lightly apply brakes to reduce back down to 70, that's a speed change. But if you are going 70 and use brakes to maintain 70, there's no change in speed or direction.

Almost all trailer brake controllers use the same wires and apply the trailer brakes in the same way over the same wire - the wire going to the brakes.

There's also Redarc to consider - they make top-notch brake controllers, their support is beyond fantastic IMO, the price is good, they fit the Jeeps fine and work great.
 

ShadowsPapa

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I cant say for certain if it uses the phone accelerometer or some internal one in the echo device its self. Ive actually sorta played with that function a bit and left the app open while just barely tapping the brakes. Not enough to cause the truck to dip or anything, and only moving maybe 10mph so not even a high rate of speed. The progressive breaking immediately activates with the slightest touch of the brakes. My best guess is maybe a combo of both the phone and the device its self.

I used the echo during my pull to Niagara falls and it was great with all the declines and didnt over brake right away or anything, and activated with little to no effort on the brake pedal.
It can't use the phone - the act of you picking it up changes the speed and direction of the phone.
What if you fumbled and dropped the phone? Trailer brakes would possibly be hit hard.
 

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So the manual button doesn’t communicate through the phones BT to the controller once set up? Interesting.
It unfortunately seems like that is not the case, at least according the the manufacturer’s web site:

Echo® Manual Override Button
To support hands-free driving, a manual override button #51189 is available to complement the Echo® (sold separately). This wireless, Bluetooth button works with the Smart Control app to enable manual activation of the trailer brakes.
The Echo app must be operating in the foreground of your cell phone applications. Operating the Echo app in the background of your cell phone applications may cause delays in braking response when using the manual override button.
 

Trickster

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It unfortunately seems like that is not the case, at least according the the manufacturer’s web site:

Echo® Manual Override Button
To support hands-free driving, a manual override button #51189 is available to complement the Echo® (sold separately). This wireless, Bluetooth button works with the Smart Control app to enable manual activation of the trailer brakes.
The Echo app must be operating in the foreground of your cell phone applications. Operating the Echo app in the background of your cell phone applications may cause delays in braking response when using the manual override button.
Not a big deal.
Having bought the Echo and the remote button, it’s much easier to have the button right on the dash within milliseconds of my hand.
Running the app in the background on the cell is required but not an issue.
To clear up any confusion let me say this about the Echo.
Consider it just like any other brake controller in the way it does trailer brake functions. The accelerometer is built into it, wired to 12v power from the vehicle when plugged into bumper 7 pin receptacle.
Instead of dials, buttons and lights for setup mounted in the cab somewhere on the hardware, those functions are done via BT on your phone. Once done, as mentioned many times, the setup is stored in the device.
The biggest advantages to this BC is the portability and ease of install.
The disadvantages are price initially and possibility of theft.
I have purchased, factory ordered quite a few BC’s over the years on various vehicles only to say goodbye to them when sold.
Should the Echo prove to have longevity, it may be the last BC I need to buy.🙂
 

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Being new to towing and brake controllers, it is surprising that wired
BC don’t act on input from the brake pedal rather than “guessing” based on perceived deceleration. That should be their main advantage over a wireless BC like the Echo.
 

ShadowsPapa

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Being new to towing and brake controllers, it is surprising that wired
BC don’t act on input from the brake pedal rather than “guessing” based on perceived deceleration. That should be their main advantage over a wireless BC like the Echo.
That's because the brake pedal effort is dependent on too many things while an acclerometer is infinitely more precise - being able to detect deceleration a human may have trouble detecting.
The brake pedal on my truck may take more effort to make the same rate of decel than your brake pedal.
As brakes wear, the rotors become slick, glazed, the surface burnished and it takes a bit more pressure to slow from 70 to 50 at the same rate - so how do you account for that difference as things wear?
How about a truck loaded to the max - I had to push harder on my brakes to slow my truck when I had a load of landscaping block in the back than I did when I drove TO Menards. You'd have to account for that.
You'd literally have to read hydraulic pressure - but from where on an ABS system?
To detect the brake pedal effort - you'd have to connect into the brake system hydraulics anyway. The brake lights are either on or off. Digital signal, 0 or 1, not 0, 0.5, 0.6 and so on.
There used to be systems that relied on connecting into brake hydraulics - but today that would be a disaster. ABS isn't as simple as the single circuit hydraulics on your grandfather's 57 Chevy wagon.
I've been a mechanic for decades and can't imagine I'd want to have a trailer brake controller literally tied into my hydraulic system.
Too many variables - every vehicle would be different. Jeep is going to be different than GM and GM different from Ford. It might even change in the next model year - and brake hydraulic pressures will change as brakes advance or change.

Perceived deceleration? Trust me - it's pretty danged precise. It will detect a change before you do.

Final question or thought - you believe it should be based on brake pedal effort - what would you tie into to get that reading?
How would you account for my truck taking less pedal effort to slow my truck than a similar JT at 70,000 miles?

How about we measure the REAL change in speed based on physics. ;-)
 

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How do brake controllers function if you decelrate but do not apply brake pressure? Say for example you hit a large puddle or snow drift?
 

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Multiple reasons I won't go the Curt Echo system - and I know those who have them will swear "I've never had an issue and they are perfect and flawless and my phone is also perfect and I've never had an issue with BT or an app crash" - yeah, perfect, hear ya.

I've seen BT freeze and crash. One a month at least I rescue my wife as she says "hey, how come my phone won't connect to xyz today" and I have to restart BT. Sometimes it's with her target device and I have to reset that.
I use BT on my phone for my hearing aids - it's a great indicator of how well BT can or can't switch things it's paying attention to. I note when I get into my truck, the phone pairs to my truck and drops the hearing aids - sometimes. When I exit the truck and move far enough away, I have to reconnect to the hearing aids again. If I use my phone to use jscan or AlfaOBD with the OBD adapter via BT - guess what doesn't work - the connection to the trucks system and my hearing aids - I have to reconnect.
Granted, that's likely because both are "audio" devices in the profile - but then why does the OBD adapter kill the other or audio connections? (I have to go into pairings and choose to connect again)
There are multiple levels and versions on BT - how it works on one phone will differ from how it works on another. I've read where iPhone users have complained they can only get 2 connections at a time even though back then the max was 5 and now it's 7.
I don't want to have to rely on my phone being connected and not dropping connection or that app not freezing to use that button.
If they make that button so it would work with my phone sitting in the house - I'd consider it, but as long as it relies on an iffy app and BT connection, not for me.

Now here come the "but my phone is perfect and no apps ever crash" and "my BT always automatically connects and never drops connection" claims.

My choice - my reasons. I prefer simple and BT and an app on a phone that must be present and ready is not simple.
 

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How do brake controllers function if you decelrate but do not apply brake pressure? Say for example you hit a large puddle or snow drift?
I don't tow in those conditions - if I am towing and it's raining hard, I keep it slow and avoid puddles like that because they can throw you into trouble.
A guess, but I'd think they'd lightly apply trailer brakes and IMO, that's a great thing because if my tow vehicle is suddenly slowed by a big deep pool of standing water, I don't want the trailer pushing on me! Since they detect changes in speed and direction, a sudden change in speed like that should apply the trailer brakes. IMO, that's good.
I've hit one so hard I started to go sideways - and I was not towing. A spot on I235 near the exit to 22nd street settled and on one of those days with a 4"/hour rain water got really deep - several inches deep and it was dark and raining hard and I was in the right lane for that exit and WHAM - I lurched forward against the shoulder harness and I could feel my WJ want to pull hard right.
If I had been towing I'd have been really happy if the brake controller had applied and the trailer pulled me straight again. Good thing I was paying attention and had my hands planted on the steering wheel. Had I been relaxed or one hand on the wheel - it might have ended differently.
(glad I had good, new tires on that Jeep, too)
 

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My choice - my reasons.
Papa, this was by far the most important part of your post. It comes down to personal comfort.

im on that other side of the spectrum where i have NEVER had a Bluetooth failure or freeze issue with an app hosted by a well established company.

I have, however, had my trailer plug wires burn out and be replaced under warranty…

following the same logic pathway id naturally lean towards the device that will still function as a brake controller if my wire harness were to fry again for whatever reason.

its all personal preference, lumped in with personal experience, and sprinkled with 3rd party anecdotal info.
 

ShadowsPapa

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Papa, this was by far the most important part of your post. It comes down to personal comfort.

im on that other side of the spectrum where i have NEVER had a Bluetooth failure or freeze issue with an app hosted by a well established company.

I have, however, had my trailer plug wires burn out and be replaced under warranty…

following the same logic pathway id naturally lean towards the device that will still function as a brake controller if my wire harness were to fry again for whatever reason.

its all personal preference, lumped in with personal experience, and sprinkled with 3rd party anecdotal info.
It fried and you STILL have 12v back at the trailer connector? Wow, what fried?

I guess Google and Amazon aren't well-established LOL as that's who was responsible for the connections when they failed (oh, and Jeep/uconnect, of course)|

BT on an android device losing connection to an Amazon-based device.
BT losing connection with Jeep system.
Not the apps per se but the devices themselves and the OS.
Multiple phones, multiple Jeeps.

I just like to have a device that's there, I can hook up and drive away, phone or no phone, having it connected or not connected via BT, plug n play.


So you've never ever had to go into BT on your phone and tell it to connect to something it should have connected to? Ever? And it's never dropped a connection? Ever?
Cool - wish I could say that. I've had to reboot phones (even at work when people say "I can't get to.......") re-pair phones with vehicles and other fun stuff.
Some have all the luck, I guess - like busted windshields LOL
 

Gren71

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It fried and you STILL have 12v back at the trailer connector? Wow, what fried?
I did, yes. The entire harness didn’t die thankfully. Im not sure what specifically was fried, just regurgitating what my shop said when I brought it to their attention.


I guess Google and Amazon aren't well-established LOL as that's who was responsible for the connections when they failed (oh, and Jeep/uconnect, of course)|
I suppose I should have said created by. Ive definitely had connectivity issues with cheap Chinese crap apps that are poorly programmed, and likely combined with poorly assembled devices.


I just like to have a device that's there, I can hook up and drive away, phone or no phone, having it connected or not connected via BT, plug n play.
im actually wondering now if the echo can receive power from the camper battery….as in if i had a catastrophic wire harness failure the echo would still work as long as the TT has battery power. I have noticed the echo stays on when I unplug it from the truck, and its still plugged into the TT. But never gave it any thought.

So you've never ever had to go into BT on your phone and tell it to connect to something it should have connected to? Ever? And it's never dropped a connection? Ever?
Cool - wish I could say that. I've had to reboot phones (even at work when people say "I can't get to.......") re-pair phones with vehicles and other fun stuff.
Some have all the luck, I guess - like busted windshields LOL
ive only had issues with cheap apps combined with cheap devices. The Va hasnt seen fit to give me a hearing aid yet so no experience with those.

But i do know my phone only likes to connect to one audio device at a time, and always automatically prioritizes a vehicle based bt audio connection over all others.

i have had a bt speaker going + my apple watch + the echo plugged in and connected…all with no problems. Even when I started the truck the bt speaker stopped and the music started playing in the truck…but the bt speaker was still “connected”. All without any hiccups, freezes, blips, bloops, r2d2 noises, or any other issue.

like I said my friend, its all personal preference.
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