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CB or Ham, the better route?

SwampNut

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No, not the same at all, and no, the FCC has not banned my radio. Properly using a any radio on a legally-used frequency with no harm to others is not at all like driving in a closed area and causing damage. I also didn't say to use frequencies you're not licensed to, but only addressed the matter of a radio which is functionally identical yet technically illegal.

Do you ever speed?

Anyway, I will continue to use and talk about doing illegal things that don't harm others. I smoke some weed a few times a year too. I'm hard core.
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SwampNut

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In the quest to delete cowboy's overly aggressive comments, my post with useful info and not engaging in the name-calling was deleted also. I would ask the mods to be more careful, please. Reposting the relevant and useful info:

I was chatting with a friend in a CA Jeep club and he said his club has gone fully to VHF, on the business or "race" radio bands. He says they are covered by a club license, similar to a business covering employees with one master license. This is a very cool idea. A business license is under $500. So that could be very cost effective for a club.

VHF has an advantage over UHF (GMRS/FRS) in hills, mountains, and heavy forest areas.
 

steelponycowboy

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The mods removed your posts because you advocated illegal acts because "no one would find out and they don't hurt anyone". That doesn't belong here or on any other forum.

So here is some information to consider before you end up unknowingly (or knowingly) break the law and end up with the FCC knocking at your door. Club licenses are issued by the FCC to ham radio clubs and do not allow members to use that license to talk on the radio. The business band can issue a business license to a club but it's still a business license NOT a club license. Business license permits employees of the business to use that license. The question is does a club qualify under FCC guidelines for individual members to use that license? Here are the qualifiers for a business license:

Any applicant may apply for any frequency in the pool in which he/she establishes eligibility. Briefly, eligibility is open to persons primarily engaged in any of the following activities:
  • The operation of a commercial activity;
  • The operation of educational, philanthropic, or ecclesiastical institutions;
  • Clergy activities; or
  • The operation of hospitals, clinics, or medical associations.
Does the average club meet those qualifications? I don't know. If they do, the use of the license is good only for the operation of the "business". Again, MyOffRoadRadio is the one telling clubs to apply for the license but gives them no details, they are only interested in selling radios. Perhaps a club does qualify but the way I read the FCC rules, it appears as if they do not.

So here are the consequences of using those cheap $35 Baofeng radios that are NOT Part 90 compliant. The FCC a person for exceeding the power limits, or for use of unauthorized equipment, and maybe for both. These offenses carry base fines of $4,000 and $5,000, respectively. And the do find and fine people. A person was recently fined $35,000 for operating a CB at 75watts. CB is regulated at 4 watts maximum, most come from the factory at 3watts to avoid being out of compliance.

Even MyOffRoadRadio that sells these radios to people say the following: "Once you have the frequencies for your club, just program them into everyone’s radios, or check out our radio programming services and we can do it for you! If you stock up on radios, you can get a bunch of 35$ BaoFeng UV5R Handheld Radios for everyone in the club and program them for the club frequencies. Then just pass them out at club trail runs. Just make sure you are complying with the frequency and power limits of your new license, and be respectful of other radio services that are operating near your frequency. The UV5R radios are not part 90 compliant but as long as you are using them responsibly on your frequency, you should be okay."

You should be OK???? The tell you that they are not approved (in so many words to confuse you) by the FCC which makes their use illegal. The also say you should be OK. Who wants to take the chance that they should be OK, what a sales pitch to sell radios to uninformed buyers. Do they care if you are going to be OK, no they don't, they only care about taking your money then on to the next victim. Buyer beware!

If you are using MURS frequencies, the max power is 2 watts, the UV5R radios are 5watts unless you switch to low power. Also business band is narrow band so your radio needs to be programmed for that too. There are thousands of FCC regulations, know them, comply with them and then you will be OK. Just because you read something online doesn't mean it's 100% true.

Just saying it's not as simple as buying a cheap radio and pushing the button to talk. It's not illegal for a company to sell you a radio that isn't legal to operate in the manner you intend to use it but you are the one that pays the consequences if you do get caught. The more people that use frequencies outside of their license, with no license, in violation of their license, using equipment that is not Part 90 compliant, improper use, exceeding power limits, etc, the more the FCC will look to make an example of someone.

So you can believe the person that tells you that it's illegal but OK or the business that says you "should be OK" or you can do the research on your own and make an informed decision that keeps you out of the eye of the law.
 

SwampNut

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The mods removed your posts because you advocated illegal acts because "no one would find out and they don't hurt anyone". That doesn't belong here or on any other forum.
Actually those weren't removed. Still posted. The removed one was a response to your insults which did violate forum rules. You should unwind a little, you seem about to crack.

Clubs can operate as a business, or not. My club specifically avoids anything that would be an activity requiring a license. No official meeting place, no sponsored runs, no commercial sponsorship, etc. Some clubs run with a business license, have sponsors, and even sell product. This may qualify as a business for the FCC. Particularly if radios are used in club business such as trail cleanups. I've done trail cleanups where BFG provided their radios on their two allocated frequencies. Clearly that was a "commercial activity."

I agree that the offroad radio vendors, aside from overpricing everything, are giving advice that is likely illegal.

I'm going to ask about the VHF license stuff at the next ham club meeting.
 

Matstock4

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I think this thread is a good view of why Ham radio can be real lame. A bunch of self important people on it with too much time and a feeling power.

The FCC and ham sticklers could use the overlap with Ham & GMRS transmitting on the 5 "high powered" (max 50watt) GMRS frequencies as a gateway to get more in the hobby. Nope. Needs to be separate because you need tests and muh laws.
 

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SwampNut

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Dude, ham radio meets are a bunch of old guys lamenting how the hobby is dying, AND gatekeeping young people at the same time. It's weird. During my last license upgrade test some guy running it treated me like I was an idiot for missing three questions, and they were the lame ones that you can look up real time. The FCC allows you to miss much more than that.
 

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I guess I will just stick with my CB for a while. It has worked fine for me since I started in this way of life. We do not particularly 4wheel with anyone. We normally go out alone to OHV parks or fire roads anyway.
 

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I think this thread is a good view of why Ham radio can be real lam
It can be lame but the vocal minority are the ones who we tend to hear

While there may be a higher percentage of eccentrics in ham radio (maybe due to the technical aspect), you see this in many hobbies and jobs: photography, cycling, CB, trucking, police & fire, boating, R/C, etc. You get egos and power drunks in every field.

Self importance is often an indication of insecurity due to some underlying past experience.
 
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Kent5

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I think this thread is a good view of why Ham radio can be real lame. A bunch of self important people on it with too much time and a feeling power.

The FCC and ham sticklers could use the overlap with Ham & GMRS transmitting on the 5 "high powered" (max 50watt) GMRS frequencies as a gateway to get more in the hobby. Nope. Needs to be separate because you need tests and muh laws.
I tend to agree. People in general tend to have the attitude "If it was tough when I tried to join, it should be just as tough for everyone after me!" It takes foresight to actually see how such policies are self-centered and can hurt the hobby/sport overall.

I've been through the Technician courses. As an engineer and a tech nerd, it is interesting stuff to be sure and not all that difficult, but IMHO, it is WAY overkill for someone who just wants to buy a ham radio and use it for trails or some other simple off-the-shelf use, and NOT building their own base station with a huge outdoor antenna.

Does getting a driver license require the user to understand the concepts of fuel injection or even the basics of the internal workings of an automatic transmission? If not, why does a simple user of ham need to know anything about how Ohm's law works and is applied?

Perhaps it is time for a basic "user license" for ham, requiring only a demonstrable familiarity with the laws and regulations of ham radio and its required usage protocols, in order to allow them to use simple radio setups? Why would a simple user buying consumer-level off the shelf handhelds and mobile radios need to know more than that? The existing classifications could be kept for those wanting to operate more powerful and complex radio setups.
 
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SwampNut

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Hah, I used to teach photo classes, and was a part-time hobby-pro. Standing around the pro lab was always, um, "interesting." I remember being screamed at by the Kodak rep in the late 90s for asking how they plan to adapt to digital taking over for film. "THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN, YOU"RE JUST AN AMATEUR WHAT DO YOU KNOW." Well, where's Kodak now?

I'm a VERY casual mountain biker. I've been told, unsolicited, what I'm doing wrong for "max gainz" and other dumb things like that. Also that my casual street clothing is all wrong "for our image." Dude, I just wanna bike around the desert.

Does getting a driver license require the user to understand the concepts of fuel injection or even the basics of the internal workings of an automatic transmission? If not, why does a simple user of ham need to know anything about how Ohm's law works and is applied?
Great way to put it. At least they got rid of the Morse code requirement. Which of course, the gatekeepers whined about. I agree with some sort of really basic VHF/UHF license with limited power, and the ability to use repeaters. Those are things that could get people into it. Being able to use a local repeater when I'm wheeling gives me comfort and safety. Hitting a network repeater and talking to my friends in CA also wheeling? Totally geek fun.
 

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Recalcitrant270

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Not that I really want to but going to throw my opinion in here. I am currently studying for my technicians license. I have a degree in electronics and computer technology. I concur with Swampnut that there should be an operator class that can transmit on certain frequencies but they should still be tested. As to why, all you have to do is to tune into the CB band and you will quickly see why you don't want to just open it to anyone ( which is very unfortunate ). Steelponycowboy is correct in that Swampnut is advocating and participating in activities against federal law ( which I don't think anyone should do ). The grey area in my opinion is the radio issue, you are allowed to listen to frequencies outside of your license you just can't transmit, that being said I don't really understand the banning of radios as long as they conform to the power limits set by the FCC or ITU. In a emergency situation you are allowed to transmit outside of your license which would be impossible if your radio was not capable of more than what you are licensed for. I am middle of the road here and think you both have valid points and things that should be considered, arguing and making it personal will not result in anything that helps the community at large. The original topic is which is the better route CB or ham and I think that has a lot to do with use case scenarios, I think the answer comes down to what the group you ride with adopts. I plan to upgrade my license to where I can transmit on all bands that I care to listen to and in so doing gain more knowledge into how radio frequencies work and perform. One interesting point that I think is worth mentioning is that CB the 11 meter band is not regulated but if you take a 10 and 12 meter radio and mod it to where it can receive and transmit on 11 meter now your radio is illegal I don't understand the reasoning behind that ( maybe someone with some ham experience can enlighten me on this). The FCC states that you can listen on those bands and can transmit on the ones your licensed for so why cant you have a radio that can work on all of them?
 

SwampNut

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One interesting point that I think is worth mentioning is that CB the 11 meter band is not regulated but if you take a 10 and 12 meter radio and mod it to where it can receive and transmit on 11 meter now your radio is illegal I don't understand the reasoning behind that ( maybe someone with some ham experience can enlighten me on this).
Yeah, that's the silliness I choose to ignore. It's just basically saying you can't drive a Bronco on a Jeep trail, even if it meets all the other requirements to be safe and sane doing so.

Also, I don't think I ever advocated that others ignore the law. I said I ignore that one and will continue to do so. I've tried not to recommend, but to share experiences.
 

Dovi82

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I have a 14JK... I have a handheld HAM and a mounted CB radio and here is why. The CB radio is GREAT when on a major highway. I used to drive a lot for the reserves (8hrs) and to home (4hrs) when I was in college. The CB radio has saved my ass 100 times and payed for itself ten fold. Truckers will tell you everything you need to know such as back roads, lanes to be, alternate routes that the gps doesn't suggest, and if rest stops are closed AND GAS PRICES! HAM however has saved my ass literally, all you need is a handheld one. When you are on top of a mountain rock crawling and you run into an issue, the CB range isn't far and very few people/EMS monitor is where as HAM has better range and usually the local forrest ranger monitors it. So when my JK got stuck on mile 21.8 out of 22.3 the ranger called the tow truck and was able to come from the end of the trail to tow me out. Also, end of the work scenarios. If you do not do much off roading than the CB is all you need.
 

Dovi82

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Wouldn't you like to know.
Rumor mill has it they are doing away with HAM repeaters. I think Commiefornia has cancelled upkeep and said they are no longer necessary. Guess they want to isolate us from the rest of the world.
While I believe this to be true and it kind of makes sense since the majority of people are not interested, I still think there are a ton of amateur enthusiast who should be able to fill the gap
 

SwampNut

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As far as I know, the repeaters around me are privately funded, on private sites. I haven't been involved in repeaters for a while, but all the call signs come back to clubs. And I occasionally do microwave telecom work on mountain sites that have club repeaters on them (the signage is obvious). California is a "special" place. I'm sure their government hates the idea of unmonitored, self-sustaining citizen communications.
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