Finally geometry brackets data

[CrazyCooter]

Unless I missed it wading through worthless deep bs.......not one mention of "Anti Dive"? Arguably the biggest reason for the brackets in the first place? Caster itself can be corrected in easier ways.

Hardcore wheelers should probably skip the brackets, but people like me that carry/tow big loads on large tires need anti dive for stability under hard braking for best results.

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[Dougstdig]

Unless I missed it wading through worthless deep bs.......not one mention of "Anti Dive"? Arguably the biggest reason for the brackets in the first place? Caster itself can be corrected in easier ways.

Hardcore wheelers should probably skip the brackets, but people like me that carry/tow big loads on large tires need anti dive for better stability under hard braking for best results.

LOL...I beat you to the punch in post #44 above.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

TJ's were interesting, because their truly short arms exacerbated the issue. There are several videos out there that show lifted TJ's at a tall step or shelf where when the rear tires pushed the front axle against the ledge it would actually lift the front end, putting rearward motion to the front axle. In extreme cases, the front springs would dislodge or pop out, which is when many found out in some cases only 1 lower spring tab was included to retain the spring. The shorter the arm, the greater affect this would have.

Looking at today's JL/JT, these are true mid length arms in comparison. It would take a greater lift to put these arms in the same angle. This being said, @ShadowsPapa brings up a great analogy with the shovel test. Similar to this test is an example Ben from JK Gear and Gadgets YT channel illustrates with a broom handle. If you don't want to watch the whole video, fast forward to about 7:11. After this section, he discusses "Anti-dive" characteristics.

That first video especially - he's comparing his Jeep before and after and getting lightly into some of the other effects. Nice find.
Anti-dive, handling of abrupt holes, smacking the edge of a hole or washout, etc. the brackets are going to help. And the front axle will be pushing horizontally across things, not down at them.

Since you can literally lift up one of these JTs by the rear of the control arm - and even by the leveling bracket, without damage, sounds like he dropped off a rock hard onto the bracket. Hmmmm.
Makes me wonder if the OP doesn't need taller tires and to slow down a tad, and maneuver the JT differently than what he's used to. He himself said it's not a TJ. That means you must deal differently with it.

Unless I missed it wading through worthless deep bs.......not one mention of "Anti Dive"? Arguably the biggest reason for the brackets in the first place? Caster itself can be corrected in easier ways.

The point is geometry for the total front suspension, not caster which is more alignment/steering.
Braking and other functions, steering, ride, handling....... there's a lot of math and engineering into how things are designed and once you take those arms out of parallel or level, it's more than just caster.


If all you do is hit the hardest of trails with the rocks and rarely drive it on the road, then yeah, get your caster back with control arms, but it would take pages to explain it and few would even buy into it if it was proven with math and science so no need to bother, I guess.
The JT isn't a JL and anyone who expects one to be as nimble or not get smacked around any more than a JL needs to dump the JT and get a JL
You have to determine the PRIMARY purpose of the vehicle (and if the trail is primary, then maybe the JL is a better choice) - if it's only trails, then fine but it's still going to be missing some of the better handling and braking characteristics even on the trail if the control arms are at steep angles.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

OP didn’t like drop brackets when wheeling. Not surprising. The thread title is bad.

No kidding - I thought maybe he was going into the reasons they exist, why to use them, when to use them, and explain geometry and use real data.
Instead we have the word "finally" as if after years of JT wheeling the masses didn't already know this stuff, and "data" - really? An opinion about one time damage by one driver (who likely isn't used to wheeling with a long wheelbase) is data?

I still think MAYBE the same truck with the same brackets might have made that same trail with a different driver - and little damage...........
but hey, that's my opinion, just like his "data" is his.

 

[CrazyCooter]

That first video especially - he's comparing his Jeep before and after and getting lightly into some of the other effects. Nice find.
Anti-dive, handling of abrupt holes, smacking the edge of a hole or washout, etc.

That first video especially - he's comparing his Jeep before and after and getting lightly into some of the other effects. Nice find.
Anti-dive, handling of abrupt holes, smacking the edge of a hole or washout, etc. the brackets are going to help. And the front axle will be pushing horizontally across things, not down at them.

Since you can literally lift up one of these JTs by the rear of the control arm - and even by the leveling bracket, without damage, sounds like he dropped off a rock hard onto the bracket. Hmmmm.
Makes me wonder if the OP doesn't need taller tires and to slow down a tad, and maneuver the JT differently than what he's used to. He himself said it's not a TJ. That means you must deal differently with it.



The point is geometry for the total front suspension, not caster which is more alignment/steering.
Braking and other functions, steering, ride, handling....... there's a lot of math and engineering into how things are designed and once you take those arms out of parallel or level, it's more than just caster.


If all you do is hit the hardest of trails with the rocks and rarely drive it on the road, then yeah, get your caster back with control arms, but it would take pages to explain it and few would even buy into it if it was proven with math and science so no need to bother, I guess.
The JT isn't a JL and anyone who expects one to be as nimble or not get smacked around any more than a JL needs to dump the JT and get a JL
You have to determine the PRIMARY purpose of the vehicle (and if the trail is primary, then maybe the JL is a better choice) - if it's only trails, then fine but it's still going to be missing some of the better handling and braking characteristics even on the trail if the control arms are at steep angles.

]

Yep, I'm fully aware of the proper use of the bracket is and why they made it on to my build.

Others however are hyperfocused on the caster correction and it drives me crazy reading the uniformed posts.

Reminds me of that old movie Idiocracy where people just regurgitate that same shit they have been told by the uninformed.

"Geo correction brackets are equipped with electrolytes, what Gladiators crave"!

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Others however are hyperfocused on the caster correction and it drives me crazy reading the uniformed posts.

GOTCHA! I didn't read between the lines.

 

[Rusty PW]

Change the name of the thread........"The Last Geo Brackets That I'll Ever Own".........

 

[whysoserious]

Change the name of the thread........"The Last Geo Brackets That I'll Ever Own".........

Or..... "I didn't know what Geo Brackets were for... and the data confirms it..."

 

[Billkowski]

I had them on my JKR with 4 inch lift and they, JKS brackets, helped the ride a lot. Now I have a JTR with 2 inch lift and 37s and it rides better than the JK. Apples and oranges. I am not a fan of the brackets but they do work to improve the ride by leveling the CAs. I won't need them on my JTR as I have 6.1 deg caster with the Mopar 2 inch lift and their front lower CAs.

That's what I am thinking/hoping with my planned 2 inch lift on the Mojave and the mopar longer arms. But I am open to the brackets if it feels much different than stock. A little more concerned with how much the axle will shift with the lift, left or right, I know it will a little.

 

[KevinM60]

Something on my upgrade list is the AEV 2” lift for Mojaves and the bracket. After reading through this thread I will keep them on my list but with the opinion that whatever lift I have there will always be something that will bang them up if I go over that obstacle.
one example I experienced this past week was a square shaped rock about 15” high.
I rolled on top of it fine but when I rolled off the back of it I came down on something underneath that hung it up. Because I eased it down it only rested on the hardware without doing any damage and after nudging it forward decided I would rather back off instead of dragging what I think was my rails across the rock. After looking underneath I didn’t see any new scrapes or dents.
Since I’m trying to not destroy my Gladiator I’ll pick my obstacles judiciously and go slowly over rocks instead of pounding through them and breaking things.
some 35s would be nice also but I’ll probably have to wait until I wear out these factory 33s

 

[Zachanadandy]

2 obvious points when running drop brackets in the rocks. 1. Pick better lines 2. Buy better brackets. The metal cloak brackets are easily twice as strong as the factory brackets. You could drag them on rocks all day long. That being said, we ran John Bull, gold mountain, and Holcomb creek and they never touched a rock even with no spotting all day. I don't think they are necessary for a 2" lift on a JT, but the ride quality and steering feed back improved dramatically on our JLUR with 3.5" of lift. Even before the brackets we had adjustable lowers and even pushing all the way up to 7⁰ of caster didn't make it feel as planted as the drop brackets.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

nd even pushing all the way up to 7⁰ of caster didn't make it feel as planted as the drop brackets.

Yup - as you see, totally different functions caster vs. the geometry of the suspension. Caster is for totally different purposes or reasons. Caster is even important on IFS vehicles.

 

[Escape.idiocracy]

Reminds me of that old movie Idiocracy where people just regurgitate that same shit they have been told by the uninformed.

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[KevinM60]

2 obvious points when running drop brackets in the rocks. 1. Pick better lines 2. Buy better brackets. The metal cloak brackets are easily twice as strong as the factory brackets. You could drag them on rocks all day long. That being said, we ran John Bull, gold mountain, and Holcomb creek and they never touched a rock even with no spotting all day. I don't think they are necessary for a 2" lift on a JT, but the ride quality and steering feed back improved dramatically on our JLUR with 3.5" of lift. Even before the brackets we had adjustable lowers and even pushing all the way up to 7⁰ of caster didn't make it feel as planted as the drop brackets.

Being new to Jeep and offroading with my own vehicle I have a lot to learn and I’m trying to soak up as much as I can. I get a lot of good insight from this forum but also web search for pertinent information.
From what I’ve read so far I get the idea that caster angle effects the smoothness of the ride at higher speeds which also tells me they don’t do as much at low speeds like crawling other slow speed offroading.
I’ve also read that installing lift without some correction will put more strain on the suspension and steering hardware and cause it to wear out faster.
In my position in manufacturing I look to actual written data from CMM inspection reports, in-process reports, and my own product sampling to analyze our manufacturing processes for continuous improvement and ease of manufacturing so when I read the title of this thread I was expecting to see written scientific data showing the effects before and after installing corrective brackets to help decide if they were necessary for my application. The OP may have his view of the situation but his application may not have been optimum for his needs.
May take on this from what I’ve experienced in the last 6 months: know the limits of your skills and your machine and work within them to have the best results that you can.

 

[mx5red]

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