I’m having trouble with payload for a RV, help?

[ShadowsPapa]

I'll take my chances, the legality is with the registered state, here my payload is gawr rated I can't get ticketed for being over just the door sticker so I am not breaking any law. If this was commercial it would be a different story as they are rated differently but personal non-commercial use legal limit is your axles in Florida. Legally I'm covered so the insurance has a massive uphill battle if they want to try to deny.

I spoke directly, on the phone, with an IHP trooper, a sergeant, who also does training, about these topics.
You'd be surprised what insurance and civil attorneys can - and DO do. Uphill battle? No, not when there's a book and door sticker. It will cost you big time, win or lose. He's seen it and described exactly how it happens. They know - tire marks and other things - they can do a play-by-play of what happened, and they can tell weights, speeds and more.
The only thing that can't happen is you being pulled over and weighed on a non-commercial vehicle (although a friend hauling dogs to a show had to fight that one, too, as they claimed he was hauling for hire and it cost him a lot of time and money to win)
Tires and axle ratings as far as tickets, the DOT and so on are concerned, but get into an accident and if the insurance company or an attorney can show you were over that sticker, and you are in court.. That's directly from a trooper's mouth with years on the job. It's not speculation. He's seen it happen.
He can't ticket you unless you exceed the tire's load rating, but get into an accident, and his findings can and will be used against you by others.
And we know about civil courts, how backlogged things are....... you are facing an uphill battle.
his bottom line was - just don't do it. Legally, you aren't covered other than tire weight ratings and so on. Civil law is still law and insurance can prove you were over book or sticker - they'll use the public law enforcement reports against you. insurance companies do, and they win. It's like doing other stupid stuff with your house - you go outside of safety, yes, they can drop you. Read the fine print of some of the contracts.

Towing with a JT isn't rocket science. It IS science, however. Set your full rig up properly and carefully. Be circumspect in what you carry/pack/tow, but towing a 5k lbs trailer with your family and necessities with a JT isn't a doomsday scenario. Be judicious in your packing and loading. Don't carry more than you need to. Make sure you have a weight distributing/anti-sway hitch that's set up properly, a brake controller, proper towing mirrors, and load the trailer properly. You'll be fine. The JT isn't a 3/4 ton truck, but neither is it as incompetent a towing vehicle as the numbers might lead you to believe.

You'll find all of the towing/weights information in your owner's manual pp 166-171 (at least that's the page numbers for my 2022 Overland.)

Check out this thread to see what other folks are successfully towing:

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...-what-camper-youre-towing-with-your-jt.79587/

No one on the internet likes math, science, logic and anything of the sort. How dare you!

I haven’t heard of the Rubicon having soft springs! They don’t feel soft…It does have a heavy diesel engine though.

I can't say they are soft - it's a higher rating than Overland springs for sure. Take Rubicon springs that are same length as Overland springs and they will hold up an Overland a bit higher. That means their rating is higher - stiffer. So Rubicon has stiffer springs than Overland.
It's not all about spring ratings, otherwise you could simply swap springs and change payload ratings.
It's a whole list of things that come together to give payload and tow ratings. Tire size and weight, unsprung vs. sprung weight, center of gravity, RPM vs. road speed and the list goes on. These aren't random numbers based on how stiff a spring is.


Point of reference -
A 2024 Mojave X has 100 pounds lower payload than a 2022 stock Overland. It sits higher, heavier, larger tires, much heavier truck, different suspension characteristics.
If I swapped my 2022 Overland for a 2024 Mojave X, it would be just about a wash for payload because I've put on a steel front bumper, power steps, winch, while the Mojave already has the steel front bumper and skid plate, and those side rails likely are almost as heavy as my power steps. So for me, I'd lose nothing in payload in the end.

payload is to factor your tongue weight not towing weight. odds are your tongue weight is round 350lbs. which is fine even with family members all loaded up. If it helps your confidence at all, I've towed 8500 with my mojave and while fully dressed with 800lbs of overland crap. was it massively over capacity and illegal? Yes. But did it totally do it just fine with no issue? Also yes, never cracked 211 on trans temps.

But as it was finally revealed, you were taking it slow, right lane, no speed-racer crap, and weren't doing it as habit or even multiple times.

I tow 5,000 pounds without trouble with my Overland - 500-525 pounds tongue weight. It's as much as I care to tow with THAT rig over long distances at interstate speeds (65).

I don't like being in accidents, I don't like legal tangles - had my fill of that several times, don't like fussing with insurance companies, I don't like sitting at the table in a room doing "discovery". Man, they will grill the shit out of you with "what is the posted speed limit at the intersection of x and y" and "what was your exact speed at the time of the accident" and other detail stuff - and if you miss, you'd just better be right or they'll throw that in your face. I've been an expert witness for defense, I've sat through that grueling discovery process, all of the phone calls, preparations and more - all i can say is - just don't do it. If you enjoy battles, whatever, but I don't enjoy it so much any more. When Dad was killed back in 2018, I was exhausted with all of the fussing and fighting over courts, insurance fights and lawyers. Is it really worth it to prove your point "they can't get me"?

payload isn't just a matter of how much weight tires and axles can handle - it's about braking, steering, emergency maneuvers and more. Be stupid and kill or injure one of my own - and I'll be your worst enemy for as long as I live, no matter the personal cost.

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[PuddleJumper]

I spoke directly, on the phone, with an IHP trooper, a sergeant, who also does training, about these topics.
You'd be surprised what insurance and civil attorneys can - and DO do. Uphill battle? No, not when there's a book and door sticker. It will cost you big time, win or lose. He's seen it and described exactly how it happens. They know - tire marks and other things - they can do a play-by-play of what happened, and they can tell weights, speeds and more.
The only thing that can't happen is you being pulled over and weighed on a non-commercial vehicle (although a friend hauling dogs to a show had to fight that one, too, as they claimed he was hauling for hire and it cost him a lot of time and money to win)
Tires and axle ratings as far as tickets, the DOT and so on are concerned, but get into an accident and if the insurance company or an attorney can show you were over that sticker, and you are in court.. That's directly from a trooper's mouth with years on the job. It's not speculation. He's seen it happen.
He can't ticket you unless you exceed the tire's load rating, but get into an accident, and his findings can and will be used against you by others.
And we know about civil courts, how backlogged things are....... you are facing an uphill battle.
his bottom line was - just don't do it. Legally, you aren't covered other than tire weight ratings and so on. Civil law is still law and insurance can prove you were over book or sticker - they'll use the public law enforcement reports against you. insurance companies do, and they win. It's like doing other stupid stuff with your house - you go outside of safety, yes, they can drop you. Read the fine print of some of the contracts.



No one on the internet likes math, science, logic and anything of the sort. How dare you!




I can't say they are soft - it's a higher rating than Overland springs for sure. Take Rubicon springs that are same length as Overland springs and they will hold up an Overland a bit higher. That means their rating is higher - stiffer. So Rubicon has stiffer springs than Overland.
It's not all about spring ratings, otherwise you could simply swap springs and change payload ratings.
It's a whole list of things that come together to give payload and tow ratings. Tire size and weight, unsprung vs. sprung weight, center of gravity, RPM vs. road speed and the list goes on. These aren't random numbers based on how stiff a spring is.


Point of reference -
A 2024 Mojave X has 100 pounds lower payload than a 2022 stock Overland. It sits higher, heavier, larger tires, much heavier truck, different suspension characteristics.
If I swapped my 2022 Overland for a 2024 Mojave X, it would be just about a wash for payload because I've put on a steel front bumper, power steps, winch, while the Mojave already has the steel front bumper and skid plate, and those side rails likely are almost as heavy as my power steps. So for me, I'd lose nothing in payload in the end.



But as it was finally revealed, you were taking it slow, right lane, no speed-racer crap, and weren't doing it as habit or even multiple times.

I tow 5,000 pounds without trouble with my Overland - 500-525 pounds tongue weight. It's as much as I care to tow with THAT rig over long distances at interstate speeds (65).

I don't like being in accidents, I don't like legal tangles - had my fill of that several times, don't like fussing with insurance companies, I don't like sitting at the table in a room doing "discovery". Man, they will grill the shit out of you with "what is the posted speed limit at the intersection of x and y" and "what was your exact speed at the time of the accident" and other detail stuff - and if you miss, you'd just better be right or they'll throw that in your face. I've been an expert witness for defense, I've sat through that grueling discovery process, all of the phone calls, preparations and more - all i can say is - just don't do it. If you enjoy battles, whatever, but I don't enjoy it so much any more. When Dad was killed back in 2018, I was exhausted with all of the fussing and fighting over courts, insurance fights and lawyers. Is it really worth it to prove your point "they can't get me"?

payload isn't just a matter of how much weight tires and axles can handle - it's about braking, steering, emergency maneuvers and more. Be stupid and kill or injure one of my own - and I'll be your worst enemy for as long as I live, no matter the personal cost.

solid advice as always

 

[hepcat]

No one on the internet likes math, science, logic and anything of the sort. How dare you!

*Sigh* What WAS I thinking?

 

[CyberHero]

What is the dry weight of your camper you say the GVWR is around 5,000 lbs, means you might be at perhaps 3800 pounds or so . Most trailers include full propane tanks in dry weight, you need to add a tank of freshwater , that weight is on the sticker in camper. Then add what you think you will pack in camper . Gladiators are recommended to have a weight distributing hitch at the weight you are talking about.
You are wanting to tow a 5,000 pound camper with a mid size truck, good news is you are looking at campers , so keep looking and see what you can find. I have a Mojave rated to tow, 1,000 pounds less then your Rubicon but have a whole lot more payload then you , yup three pounds, 1129 lbs. We spent a lot of time looking for a camper that fits our needs and the truck, get a narrow camper 7’ or 7’6” instead of the standard 8’. We ended up with a 24’ long , 7’6” wide, single axle camper sort of aero shaped and at 3100lbs. Dry and 4100lvs. GVWR , with a hitch rating of I think 380 pounds.
Camper tows great. …Jack

Which camper?

 

[CyberHero]

Seems this keeps coming up every week............ and yet all of the stuff is in the freakin book.
No one checks this stuff out, buys a truck, then wants to tow a trailer and then complains the truck isn't capable enough.

Payload is on the door sticker.
ANY THING, any person, any object, accessory whatever, comes off that number.
If your family dog weighs 100 pounds and goes with you, subtract 100 from that number.
Trailer TONGUE WEIGHT is what goes against that number, so if that's 500, take that from the number.
If you have added stuff to the bed, subtract that.
If your beer cooler is 100 pounds, subtract that if it's in the truck somewhere.

It's really simple, it's math, it's not complex and Jeep, Ford, GMC and Dodge/RAM have made it stupid simple with that door sticker and the book.
Sorry, but I don't see how it gets so very complicated.

Well to be fair at no point in my past have I ever considered towing a trailer let alone buying one! People change or get fun ideas so when I bought I didn’t check payload numbers. Pretty common I’m sure

 

[BuckarooAZ]

Basically anything in or on the bed, people and items carried in the cab. If you added any modifications, they count too, ie. winch, upgraded bumpers.

You're not in a race to go camping. Just take it slow and make sure your trailer brakes are set right. The Gladiator will pull that size camper easy.

You can add a weight distribution hitch, but if is is not set up correctly, if will not work for it's intended purpose or you can damage your trailer or truck. Your truck will do fine the way it is.

Good reminder on Payload to include the added weight of accessories. That can add up quick.

 

[bleda2002]

I spoke directly, on the phone, with an IHP trooper, a sergeant, who also does training, about these topics.
You'd be surprised what insurance and civil attorneys can - and DO do. Uphill battle? No, not when there's a book and door sticker. It will cost you big time, win or lose. He's seen it and described exactly how it happens. They know - tire marks and other things - they can do a play-by-play of what happened, and they can tell weights, speeds and more.
The only thing that can't happen is you being pulled over and weighed on a non-commercial vehicle (although a friend hauling dogs to a show had to fight that one, too, as they claimed he was hauling for hire and it cost him a lot of time and money to win)
Tires and axle ratings as far as tickets, the DOT and so on are concerned, but get into an accident and if the insurance company or an attorney can show you were over that sticker, and you are in court.. That's directly from a trooper's mouth with years on the job. It's not speculation. He's seen it happen.
He can't ticket you unless you exceed the tire's load rating, but get into an accident, and his findings can and will be used against you by others.
And we know about civil courts, how backlogged things are....... you are facing an uphill battle.
his bottom line was - just don't do it. Legally, you aren't covered other than tire weight ratings and so on. Civil law is still law and insurance can prove you were over book or sticker - they'll use the public law enforcement reports against you. insurance companies do, and they win. It's like doing other stupid stuff with your house - you go outside of safety, yes, they can drop you. Read the fine print of some of the contracts.

Thats true for any accident. Civil suits boils down to things, duty, causation and damage. If you caused the accident, you're screwed whether its because you were speeding, not paying attention, overloaded, or any other reason out there. Once the causation is established then it maybe matters whether it was payload rating, or just big tires, or your beadlocks failed, etc as that can be used to show you were being negligent when the accident happened and convince the jury that your negligence led to the causation.

The entire point of personal liability insurance is for these specific circumstances, unless your policy specifically calls out being overloaded, the insurance is still going to have to pay, just like if you cause an accident speeding, they still have to pay. You'll probably get dropped, but they're still on the hook.

Any time you get behind the wheel, modify your vehicle, or even change the tires to anything non-oem you are opening yourself up to liability, i guess it just depends on how much your willing to live with, but 2-300 pounds over weight, meh i'll take my chances (as do pretty much every over-bloated-lander i see out there lol).

 

[ShadowsPapa]

but 2-300 pounds over weight, meh i'll take my chances

I think based on the past we're same page stuff, really.

 

[bluemoon110]

22 Gal. of fuel is 139 LBS.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

22 Gal. of fuel is 139 LBS.

That does not count because "curb weight" is what's factored into the numbers already.
Truck as factory equipped by build sheet, window sticker, and full tank of fuel -

"Curb weight is the weight of the vehicle including a full tank of fuel and all standard equipment."

and

"a vehicle's payload capacity -- the amount of stuff it can safely carry after you've filled up the tank with gas and topped off all of the fluids"

So when you see that number on the door jamb sticker, it's already accounting for all fluids and fuel that it can hold as it came from the factory. That means the full tank of gas does not come off the payload number.

As you use fuel, you gain the payload equivalent of the fuel not in the tank. Big whoopie!

 

[Jaxmax]

Which camper?

Gulfstream Vista Pro 19ERD!
No bump out either, bump outs add weight , tandem axles add weight, I am surprised how well it tows with a single axle…..Jack

 

[ShadowsPapa]

tandem axles add weight, I am surprised how well it tows with a single axle…..Jack

Yeah, they add weight, but superior towing, IMO. I'd never own a single axle camper again. But then, in my case, I'll probably never own another camper of any sort anyway. Too far beyond that, my cares and interests are in the other things to see and do now. So what I think doesn't really matter then, does it? LOL.

A good, level setup, good packing, good weight distribution on the rig, and a good hitch - that's probably why you have a good ride. The owner is part of the equation.

 

[bluemoon110]

That does not count because "curb weight" is what's factored into the numbers already.
Truck as factory equipped by build sheet, window sticker, and full tank of fuel -

"Curb weight is the weight of the vehicle including a full tank of fuel and all standard equipment."

and

"a vehicle's payload capacity -- the amount of stuff it can safely carry after you've filled up the tank with gas and topped off all of the fluids"

So when you see that number on the door jamb sticker, it's already accounting for all fluids and fuel that it can hold as it came from the factory. That means the full tank of gas does not come off the payload number.

As you use fuel, you gain the payload equivalent of the fuel not in the tank. Big whoopie!

Good to know. I can take that off my weight sheet.

 

[Snowcavemike]

I was going by the GVWR and keeping it under 5k lbs but now people are telling me my payload on my Rubicon (1126 on door) it’s too low to tow anything but a pop up;(
Family of 4 com

bined weight 500 and what all do I have to add up from here?

We put the AEV heavy diesel springs and it carries the weight fine. We weigh in at 6200

 

[MattKay]

Well to be fair at no point in my past have I ever considered towing a trailer let alone buying one! People change or get fun ideas so when I bought I didn’t check payload numbers. Pretty common I’m sure

Very True!!!



I came from a 2015 tow package equipped suburban. Its load capacity was 1452 vs my JTR which is 1252.
which isn’t bad considering the JTR seats 2 less people.

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