Introduction and towing question.

[mr. cob]

Howdy All,

I have been building, racing, crashing Jeeps for 50 years but the newest one I have owned was a 1973 Jeep Commando, that was so far from stock as to be unrecognizable, I have NO experience or knowledge of the new Jeeps.

I am seriously considering buying a new Gladiator, using the Jeep build web site I finally after spending hours working with it come up with a combination that I "think" will serve my purposes.

I know it costs a lot of money and will not in my life time, I am 74, pay for itself in fuel costs but I want the diesel engine for towing use. From the research I have done it just seems like the better way to go. I have driven truck for many years and still use a Peterbilt 379, to tow my huge 45 foot long toy hauler rv trailer so I think I am well versed in knowing the difference between gas and diesel towing capabilities.

That said, I do have a serious question for those who own the Eco-diesel and it's tow package, can you tow safely and without strain a 5,000 pound trailer up a decent grade at a reasonable speed?

I have a 2,500 pound tandem axle enclosed trailer, I would load into this trailer a 2,000 pound SxS and approximately 500 pounds of gear, giving me a total of around 5,000 pounds to be towed.

I have watched videos on youtube of the gas engine pulling such a load up a grade they did not give the percentage and to hold 45mph the engine was running at 5,500 rpm in 3rd gear, this sounds like an invitation to an early drive-line failure to me, but I wasn't able to find any videos that showed how the diesel performed under similar circumstances.

So any information you can share or point me to will be greatly appreciated, thanks.

Dave

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[sharpsicle]

Just a few things to consider:

• The gas variants have a higher available tow capacity than the diesels.
• The diesel variants have known de-rating issues when hauling significant loads under strain (inclines and/or hot days).
• 5,500rpm isn't a huge concern on the gas engine, but as you said the grade percentage is key there and without that it's hard to know what you're looking at there.

In the end if you're looking for overall best tow rating and reliability, the gas is actually a decent choice. It has more payload and tow capability, has been shown to have have less issues than the diesel and, should anything occur that needs fixing, it is much quicker turnaround in the shop. You just need to understand that it's an engine that's designed to rev up, so don't shy away from going over 3k rpms. I understand that's not for everyone.

The diesel sounds a ton better and will make you happier if your goal is just to see that rpm needle lower as you tow. More power on the low end for sure, you'll definitely smile when you put the pedal down and take advantage of that torque. But it does suffer from heat soak, regen issues, and de-rating of power due to inadequate cooling. And if your diesel gets an issue, we have seen it be a much longer wait to get parts and repairs done. Modern requirements are killing these engines, and today's diesels are virtually unrecognizable from the ones you used to know.

If you're set on the diesel, I get it. But if you aren't, then I would take a closer look at the gas V6 as well. It might end up being a better value for you. In the end it's all very subjective, as is your question, so you'll have to decide. There are a ton of threads on here about this very topic, I'd start there and keep an open mind on both the engines.

 

[PlayfulBird]

The Gladiator is IMO not a towing rig, even small trailers it is a bit jumpy.
The Diesel overheats, has lower capacity (even the petrol is not comfortable towing 50% the sticker weight in difficult conditions) limits down power and still has issues with the pump as well as the adblue system. On paper it is the better rig.
I just reread your post, you cannot compare the Gladiator petrol vs diesel as you can a F250 petrol vs diesel. Ofcourse the Ram Ford etc Diesel will tow much better, but the Diesel in the Gladiator is more an mpg improvement than a tow improvement. Yes for offroading it is an amazing engine. Put it in 1 and let it go....

If you live in an area were you can fix those issue on your own without running into legal troubles the Diesel can be amazing. Also if that is the truck that makes you happy go for it and screw any advice. Have fun.
For us a no go.

 

[mr. cob]

Just a few things to consider:

• The gas variants have a higher available tow capacity than the diesels.
• The diesel variants have known de-rating issues when hauling significant loads under strain (inclines and/or hot days).
• 5,500rpm isn't a huge concern on the gas engine, but as you said the grade percentage is key there and without that it's hard to know what you're looking at there.

In the end if you're looking for overall best tow rating and reliability, the gas is actually a decent choice. It has more payload and tow capability, has been shown to have have less issues than the diesel and, should anything occur that needs fixing, it is much quicker turnaround in the shop. You just need to understand that it's an engine that's designed to rev up, so don't shy away from going over 3k rpms. I understand that's not for everyone.

The diesel sounds a ton better and will make you happier if your goal is just to see that rpm needle lower as you tow. More power on the low end for sure, you'll definitely smile when you put the pedal down and take advantage of that torque. But it does suffer from heat soak, regen issues, and de-rating of power. And if your diesel gets an issue, we have seen it be a much longer wait to get parts and repairs done. Modern diesel requirements are killing them, and today's diesels are virtually unrecognizable from the ones you used to know.

Howdy sharpsicle,

Thanks so much for your quick and detailed reply. Yes you are 1,000% correct when you say modern diesels are NOT like those I am used too. The C-15 Caterpillar in my Pete, has nothing but a draft tube to vent crankcase fumes, is has NOTHING as regards pollution control and runs great because of that.

The videos I watched on the Eco-diesel were down right scary when it was pointed out how many systems and sensors are involved with making it clean. I guess my thinking and I may be wrong is that the warranty should take care of any problems I might have during my expected years of using the truck. I am concerned about the EGE, regen and def problems, these things are horribly expensive to repair on the big trucks.

Thanks again for your reply.

Dave

 

[mr. cob]

The Gladiator is IMO not a towing rig, even small trailers it is a bit jumpy.
The Diesel overheats, has lower capacity (even the petrol is not comfortable towing 50% the sticker weight in difficult conditions) limits down power and still has issues with the pump as well as the adblue system. On paper it is the better rig.
I just reread your post, you cannot compare the Gladiator petrol vs diesel as you can a F250 petrol vs diesel. Ofcourse the Ram Ford etc Diesel will tow much better, but the Diesel in the Gladiator is more an mpg improvement than a tow improvement. Yes for offroading it is an amazing engine. Put it in 1 and let it go....

If you live in an area were you can fix those issue on your own without running into legal troubles the Diesel can be amazing. Also if that is the truck that makes you happy go for it and screw any advice. Have fun.
For us a no go.

Howdy PlayfulBird,

Thanks for your reply. Before I legally converted the Pete, to a "motor home" I towed a 38 foot toy hauler with a pumped up Dodge one ton dually diesel and was in the end disappointed, one eye on the road the other on the pyrometer hoping I didn't have melted pistons flowing out the exhaust pipe. I had not heard of any "derating" of the diesel before because of over heating, I "ASSUMED" the towing package would include a larger cooling system to cope with such things. If the diesl package is mostly for fuel mileage it would take many more thousands of miles to recope the cost then I will probably drive the vehicle, I was thinking it might be a better towing rig but knowing NOTHING of these new diesels I may well be wrong.

Dave

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I have watched videos on youtube of the gas engine pulling such a load up a grade they did not give the percentage and to hold 45mph the engine was running at 5,500 rpm in 3rd gear, this sounds like an invitation to an early drive-line failure to me,

Nothing to do with diesel, but that RPM is engine RPM - the driveshaft from transmission output to differential pinion, is turning the same RPM at 45 mph no matter what gear you are in.

Long runs at that RPM as long as it's under a steady load isn't a big deal. My Chevy with LS engine used to have to hit 5,000 RPM to keep the speed limit on some of the hills in Iowa, my Gladiator gas never had to wind up that tight, but never seemed to complain when it hit 4200 for a few hills.

I know this is aimed at diesels - but the days of engines needing to stay under 5,000 rpm to be happy are like my boyish figure - long gone.

 

[mr. cob]

Nothing to do with diesel, but that RPM is engine RPM - the driveshaft from transmission output to differential pinion, is turning the same RPM at 45 mph no matter what gear you are in.

Long runs at that RPM as long as it's under a steady load isn't a big deal. My Chevy with LS engine used to have to hit 5,000 RPM to keep the speed limit on some of the hills in Iowa, my Gladiator gas never had to wind up that tight, but never seemed to complain when it hit 4200 for a few hills.

I know this is aimed at diesels - but the days of engines needing to stay under 5,000 rpm to be happy are like my boyish figure - long gone.

Howdy ShadowsPapa,

Thanks for your reply. I fully understand about engine rpm verses rpm of the rest of the drive train. Still and I'll readily admit to being "old school" 5,000 rpm sustained by a gas engine sounds like a lot to me especially under load. I know and understand modern manufacturing techniques and materials have made such things common but it's hard for an old fossilized brain to accept.

I live about 50 miles northeast of seattle, at the western base of the Cascade Mountain range, I travel a LOT, I can't go anywhere without crossing mountains, my home is at 297 feet of elevation, I look out my window and can see 5,500 feet with logging roads going nearly to the top of that mountain. When I go to eastern Washington, I have to cross anywhere from 3,500 to 5,200 foot passes depending on which road I take, when I go out of State I have to cross many more mountain ranges, the area I live in in filled with steep grades 5-15% on the back roads, many 7% freeways passes or long grades, towing is a challenge, as Dorthy said, "We ain't in Kansas".

It could be the Jeep Gladiator in it's present form simply isn't the vehicle that I need, the Wrangler just got the V8 but has a base line price of 75K, same engine in the Gladiator would probably push the cost 85-90K+ to rich for my blood.

Dave

 

[Barnaby’sdad]

Don’t just look at fuel economy (that’s what a lot of folks seem to do with the diesel variant). Factor in the total ownership cost when considering both engine options.

I’m not bored enough to put a spreadsheet together on this. I’ll just say that I find it hard to believe that the diesel Gladiator is cheaper to operate than a gas one by the time you factor in the upfront cost for the engine, cost of diesel vs. regular unleaded fuel, DEF, recurring maintenance for both (fuel filter frequency), etc.

Assuming the diesel is cheaper to operate (factoring in all costs)…how many years does it take to break-even on the initial investment for the engine?

 

[mr. cob]

Don’t just look at fuel economy (that’s what a lot of folks seem to do with the diesel variant). Factor in the total ownership cost when considering both engine options.

I’m not bored enough to put a spreadsheet together on this. I’ll just say that I find it hard to believe that the diesel Gladiator is cheaper to operate than a gas one by the time you factor in the upfront cost for the engine, cost of diesel vs. regular unleaded fuel, DEF, recurring maintenance for both (fuel filter frequency), etc.

Assuming the diesel is cheaper to operate (factoring in all costs)…how many years does it take to break-even on the initial investment for the engine?

Howdy Barnaby'sdad,

Thanks for your reply. From the research I have done ( lots of great information on this forum ) it would take anywhere from 60K to 90K miles to break even cost of gas verses diesel. I highly doubt I would put that many miles on so operating costs really isn't my main concern, towing ability is.

Dave

 

[dcmdon]

I've written this before, but since you are new here I'll say it again.

RPM will not hurt a modern engine. Both Saab and Subaru did record runs back in the 90s where they ran their cars flat out full throttle near redline for THIRTY DAYS and had zero failures in both of their attempts.

I've often said that if Jeep just set the Tachometer in the Gladiator to only show 60% of reality and tuned the transmission to hold lower gears, most people would think their jeep was pretty torquey.

 

[mr. cob]

I've written this before, but since you are new here I'll say it again.

RPM will not hurt a modern engine. Both Saab and Subaru did record runs back in the 90s where they ran their cars flat out full throttle near redline for THIRTY DAYS and had zero failures in both of their attempts.

I've often said that if Jeep just set the Tachometer in the Gladiator to only show 60% of reality and tuned the transmission to hold lower gears, most people would think their jeep was pretty torquey.

Howdy dcmdon,

Thanks for your reply. Us old dogs are tryin to learn new tricks but it's hard to go against past conditioning based on many a blown engine. I guess my main UNEDUCATED concern is can the engine in the Jeep made by a company in Italy be accurately judged against those made by companies like Saab and Subaru who are known for quality?

Dave

 

[Mr._Bill]

The diesel Gladiator is not intended to be a towing rig, like the Ram or others. For your intended use and environment, I would suggest a gas model with the Max Tow option, if you want a Gladiator. Otherwise, look at something designed for towing.

 

[mr. cob]

The diesel Gladiator is not intended to be a towing rig, like the Ram or others. For your intended use and environment, I would suggest a gas model with the Max Tow option, if you want a Gladiator. Otherwise, look at something designed for towing.

Howdy Mr._Bill,

Thanks for your reply. I am so glad I joined this forum and asked my question, I haven't made any decisions and am still in the investigation stage of a possible buy.

Dave

 

[Jefe1018]

I own a diesel. I wouldn’t hesitate to tow 5,000lbs behind it all day every day.​

​

Some folks have had bad luck with the diesel derating itself when it gets too hot - mine has not done that.​

​

My boat is 3800lbs and it’s like it’s not there. Even on 37’s I average 16.5mpg towing.​

 

[mr. cob]

I own a diesel. I wouldn’t hesitate to tow 5,000lbs behind it all day every day.​

​

Some folks have had bad luck with the diesel derating itself when it gets too hot - mine has not done that.​

​

My boat is 3800lbs and it’s like it’s not there. Even on 37’s I average 16.5mpg towing.​

Howdy Jefe1018,

Thanks for your reply. Do you know if the cooling system is increased in the diesel, I have heard about a larger or more powerful electric radiator fan but can find nothing to do with larger radiator or large coolant capacity? I would think that the diesel simply because it's a diesel would come with a larger capacity cooling system but that kind of information if it's out there I haven't found it.

Dave

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