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BourbonRunner

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Oh, and by the way- I'm glad to see that Selec-Trac is back and if I'm reading it properly it's available as an option on standard and X package Mojaves.

Why this isn't standard on all auto-equipped is beyond me, and more so why dealers didn't option for it on lot orders especially in the northern half of the country. Full time 4wd is a game changer in shitty weather...
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Just something else regarding price.

everyone is talking about how the Tacoma will be around 62K.

well the Mojave base is 52,995 and with the x package it’s up to 62,995 so it’s right there with the others. Take into account below dealer invoice and your well below the Toyotas because I’m pretty sure they don’t offer below invoice.
 

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It looks like you can add leather / power seats to non-X model Mojave and Rubicons now. Also confirms that the black/green interior is the only option for Mojave leather.

Also noticed that the HD Rock Sliders with Step Assist are no longer available and the Doors off mirror kit went from $195 to $765. ?
I don't mind the black/green seats but feel like they would have paired best with sarge green, which they stopped. Same footsteps as the red seats in the 392 with all the gold accents - should have saved the red for the normal Rubicon like the 10th anniversary.
 

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Consider yourself lucky the snow today cancelled all my appointments and I have the time to go deep on this ;)

Here's my take:

Jeep has a fully removable or retractable top. Taco offers a moon roof. The GM twins offer a sun roof. No other mid-size trucks have the option (Ranger Raptor was on my list until I found that out). Can't take the doors or top off of anything but a jeep but having a moon roof/sun roof is better than nothing.​

Advantage: Jeep, assuming you don't mind the inconvenience of removal and storage (Sunrider tops are a great option in this space). Otherwise pressing a button and at least getting a view of the sky isn't so bad.

The JT is far more capable off road out of the box if your off roading is extreme rock crawling. If not there's nothing a Tacoma/Bison/ATX can't do a JT can.​

Advantage: Wash. If you're into heavy duty rock crawling, get a Jeep. If you're not, something else. See below.

With regards to the front lockers: I've had many 4x4 vehicles over the years and though a rear locker is super-handy, I've never had need for a front locker. Granted, my off roading isn't rock crawling but I've also never been in a position where I've thought "Gee, I could use a front locker." But if it is needed, Toyotas have long had front lockers available in the aftermarket from ARB and others. But keep in mind that improper use of a front locker on an IFS is asking to snap a CV which will always happen at the worst possible time, 20 miles from a paved road. GMC does offer a front e-locker on the AT4X/Bison so there is that.​
And that goes into the reliability of IFS vs SFA. IFS has its stress points and an SFA is a more robust platform out of the gate, but note that every single performance off road vehicle, from the Bronco to the Raptors are using IFS. 25 years ago it was a different story but I think that IFS as a "weak point" is less of a concern than ever before.​
Advantage: GM Twins (but only the AT4X and Bison)

SFA death wobble is a real issue, and even with all the whiz bang suspension magic of the Mojave, Jeep still can't eradicate it. That is a non-issue with any other mid-size trucks because they're all IFS. Since the majority of 99% of the buying public's driving is on road, this is a big one.​

Advantage: Anything other than Jeep.

Customization: Jeep by far. If you're into that end of it, there is more support for Jeep than any other brand. But that isn't to say that the others don't have support, it's just that Jeep has more.​

Advantage: Jeep. Toyota is a distant second.

Toyota wins hands down on reliability over the long haul. They're the only manufacturer I'd consider buying a first year model of, and their hybrid system is the very best in the market. It ought to be- they've had 20 years to perfect it. The biggest issue with Toyota over the long haul is the vehicle will rust away before the mechanical side dies.​

Advantage: Toyota everyday and twice on Sunday.

Towing:

JT Max Tow, Canyon, Colorado are rated for well over 7000lbs. TRD Pro and Trailmaster are not yet released but regular Tacoma's max at 6500lbs and TRD Off Road is 6400lbs. But the Rubicon and Mojave are closer to the base Taco, and the AT4X/Bison are at 6500lbs... I'd expect the heavier hybrid Tacos to be lower than the base gassers.​
Granted, if you're regularly towing heavier loads mid-size trucks aren't the right tool for the job. Longer wheelbase and heavier capacity are the world of the full size but being able to haul a car trailer to the track, a small RV, dump trailer etc are nice if needed.​
Advantage: Anything but Tacoma.

The other issue: Price & Buying

The Trailmaster and TRD Pro are going to sticker around $62K**. Rubicon and Mojave X will be north of that. AT4X starts at $65k.​
**Toyota dealers are notorious for "market adjustments" over the sticker price. Dont expect to get a Trailhunter or TRD Pro at or near sticker initially.​
But the bigger issue is how Toyota handles "orders" on high demand vehicles-- Which is total bullshit. They don't do custom orders from the factory like Jeep. Instead, you pick 2-3 colors of the trim you want, put down your deposit, and if the dealer gets allocated that model/color/trim, they'll call you. You may or may not have certain factory options included, all depends on the factory's build spec, not yours. Many options can be dealer installed but if you absolutely have to have the Trailhunter in Bronze with a sunroof and one doesn't come up for 6months, that's not their problem. (this is part of why we didn't buy a Rav4 Hybrid for her- we weren't interested in waiting months to **maybe** get the colors/options we wanted.)​

Advantage: Jeep and anyone other than Toyota. I'm not spending that kind of money unless I get the truck I want the way I want it.
Still, this is not an apples to apples comparison. Lets digest.

Off road capability:
Ok so you say it is a wash to compare Jeep to Taco for off road capabilities? Jeep clearly has better capability. By removing the 'extreme rock crawling' abilities of Jeep out of the equation is like saying you will only compare the accuracy ranges of a sniper rifle with a hand held pistol at 100 yards. Well, now you are purposefully modifying, or dumbing down, the clearly higher capable unit to match the lower capable unit in order to claim it is a 'wash'. That is terrible comparison methodologies. Even if a person is not into hard core off road, the fact remains, Jeep wins well above Toyota for off road capability.

Lockers:
Tacoma does not have a factory front locker. Sure you can get an aftermarket unit. But it stands, Taco does not have a locker up front from the factory. This is an additional cost, which is also a warranty covered item. As it is, Jeep Rubicon comes with a factory front locker. TRD Pro does not even have that option. Saying you will add one in the aftermarket is not a valid apples to apples comparison - that situation would go under aftermarket support. Trying to include the aftermarket options in the comparison of a factory included unit is again dumbing down the fact that Jeep has a front locker option from the factory, in order to try and make Toyota look superior. So again Jeep clearly is the winner for capability.

Swaybar disconnect:
Not even an item really discussed, but I just checked Toyota's website and they list their equivalent to a sway bar disconnect as 'an available option'. Rubicon comes with it standard. This of course increases price. But I would be willing to bet that if a person chose this option on the TRD the price increase would be comparable to the additional cost Jeep puts on the Rubicon to account for the included sway disc - so in this instance it would be a wash because both options cause an increase in price and both are a factory included item.

Reliability:
I would challenge anyone to show some documentation on statistics for reliability between the two vehicles. My '06 TJ has by far been the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. The Gladiator really has not had any major functional problems - fluid leaks aside. The reliability thing certainly was pertinent many years ago, but I think things have come so far in the recent years that both vehicles are probably pretty darn close in reliability.

Towing:
Rubicon can tow 7,500 pounds. I'm not sure where your getting that it can only tow close to the base model of the Tacoma?

Price:
Yet again here we do not have a like comparison. Ok so the TRD Pro base is about 62K? Jeep Rubicon base is about 52K according to their site. Mine (at the height of covid crap) was sticker at 63,9. But one has to consider that the Rubicon already has more features and options than the TRD - specifically a front locker and sway disconnect. Not to mention other considerations like slapping on 35's without any lift or modifications. It takes thousands to get 35's on a Tacoma.

But I digress, if we want to take some of those things that Jeep offers and allows that is not even an option on the Tacoma, or not an option without modification, then it is more appropriate to compare the TRD with a Willies or Overland edition. You can't compare a top of the line from Tacoma with a medium option from Jeep and consider it a fair comparison.

So yeah Jeep is more expensive, sure. But you are getting a lot more for that money that the competition just doesn't offer.
 

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BourbonRunner

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Still, this is not an apples to apples comparison. Lets digest.

Off road capability:
Ok so you say it is a wash to compare Jeep to Taco for off road capabilities? Jeep clearly has better capability. By removing the 'extreme rock crawling' abilities of Jeep out of the equation is like saying you will only compare the accuracy ranges of a sniper rifle with a hand held pistol at 100 yards. Well, now you are purposefully modifying, or dumbing down, the clearly higher capable unit to match the lower capable unit in order to claim it is a 'wash'. That is terrible comparison methodologies. Even if a person is not into hard core off road, the fact remains, Jeep wins well above Toyota for off road capability.
I didn't say that it wasn't more capable. The Rubicon is the best out of the box but for the majority of what end users will do the GM's, Tacoma, and Ranger Raptor are not slouches and have better on-road manners. That's the wash.

Diving into it: SFA has its issues (mainly death wobble) and the buying public spends most of its time on pavement than dirt. Not all of us can afford a dedicated trail/overland rig so compromising slightly on the capability (lockers, SFA) for some daily driving comfort isn't the end of the world.

Buyers want more car-like handling which is part of why IFS has taken over in the entire truck/body on frame SUV space short of 3/4 ton+.

The only mid-size truck in the land with a SFA is the JT, and the only other vehicle in a similar size class with one is the Wrangler. 4R and Bronco are IFS.

BTW, I encourage you to side by side test a stock Mojave and Rubicon. The Mojave is far superior on the road. Alarmingly so.

Lockers:
Tacoma does not have a factory front locker. Sure you can get an aftermarket unit. But it stands, Taco does not have a locker up front from the factory. This is an additional cost, which is also a warranty covered item. As it is, Jeep Rubicon comes with a factory front locker. TRD Pro does not even have that option. Saying you will add one in the aftermarket is not a valid apples to apples comparison - that situation would go under aftermarket support. Trying to include the aftermarket options in the comparison of a factory included unit is again dumbing down the fact that Jeep has a front locker option from the factory, in order to try and make Toyota look superior. So again Jeep clearly is the winner for capability.
Having factory front lockers on an IFS is a rarity, the GM twins are the only IFS mid-size trucks with OEM front lockers.

Furthermore, aside from the specific use cases mentioned, a front locker isn't an absolute must have for everyone. I had zero issue in a loaded down Mojave in low gear crawling rocky ledge trails in SoCal last year. The diesel JLUR following me hung in high gear on the same trails because of the torque.

Swaybar disconnect:
Not even an item really discussed, but I just checked Toyota's website and they list their equivalent to a sway bar disconnect as 'an available option'. Rubicon comes with it standard. This of course increases price. But I would be willing to bet that if a person chose this option on the TRD the price increase would be comparable to the additional cost Jeep puts on the Rubicon to account for the included sway disc - so in this instance it would be a wash because both options cause an increase in price and both are a factory included item.
I didn't address sway disconnects because it is a very specific use case.

Reliability:
I would challenge anyone to show some documentation on statistics for reliability between the two vehicles. My '06 TJ has by far been the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. The Gladiator really has not had any major functional problems - fluid leaks aside. The reliability thing certainly was pertinent many years ago, but I think things have come so far in the recent years that both vehicles are probably pretty darn close in reliability.
Toyota/Lexus consistently lead the pack in JD Power reliability ratings while there isn't a Stellantis brand that doesn't make it below the threshold of industry average issues per 100 units sold (per JDP).

That doesn't mean Toyota is perfect-- My 2004 Taco would still be on the road if it wasn't for Toyota's shitty steel rusting to death if you park next to a salt shaker.

Towing:
Rubicon can tow 7,500 pounds. I'm not sure where your getting that it can only tow close to the base model of the Tacoma?
Was incorrect there. For some reason I thought the Rubicon was down in the 6500 range. Regardless, the outgoing Tacoma's tow capacity was bullshit. At least the new ones have upped it a little. Advantage still goes to the Jeep.

Price:
Yet again here we do not have a like comparison. Ok so the TRD Pro base is about 62K? Jeep Rubicon base is about 52K according to their site. Mine (at the height of covid crap) was sticker at 63,9. But one has to consider that the Rubicon already has more features and options than the TRD - specifically a front locker and sway disconnect. Not to mention other considerations like slapping on 35's without any lift or modifications. It takes thousands to get 35's on a Tacoma.
Different use cases. If I bought a Trailhunter out of the gate (which I am considering vs a Mojave) I dont think I'd be doing anything other than switching to pizza cutters. My use case is not the same as yours, though I do love your build ;)

But I digress, if we want to take some of those things that Jeep offers and allows that is not even an option on the Tacoma, or not an option without modification, then it is more appropriate to compare the TRD with a Willies or Overland edition. You can't compare a top of the line from Tacoma with a medium option from Jeep and consider it a fair comparison.
I'll refine that-- TRD Pro vs Mojave, Overland vs Limited, Willys vs TRD Off Road. Rubicon is on its own because of the lockers/sways.

So yeah Jeep is more expensive, sure. But you are getting a lot more for that money that the competition just doesn't offer.
That's a fair point. For my needs, my next truck is either a Mojave or a Trailhunter and aside from a cap and rack, either would remain mostly stock.

But if I was building a truck I'd probably start with a Sport Max Tow over a Rubicon. ;)
 

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That is not as bad as I thought it would be. About as light a shade one could get of green before going to gray. I was expecting something more popping.
Yeah, I'm OK with it. It's a little bit Volvo-like, in terms of "this is what you're going to get AND YOU'LL LIKE IT!", but it actually ain't bad.

/me goes back to reviewing the '24 Volvo V60 PE option sheet: "What's that? There are no choices whatsoever?"
 

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Here’s some in anvil as well.

as much as I joke about it, I’m still in for one :)

I still think this interior color would have looked amazing on a sarge…..but the guy above removed that from the order form.
Agreed. That seat color would look great. The only concern I would have is if it was in the Rubicon it might clash with the red dash. I have to say at first I thought the red dash was tacky. But it's grown on me. However, I do not like the leather dash look.
 

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I didn't say that it wasn't more capable. The Rubicon is the best out of the box but for the majority of what end users will do the GM's, Tacoma, and Ranger Raptor are not slouches and have better on-road manners. That's the wash.
Ahh ok I see what you're talking about then. That makes sense.

Diving into it: SFA has its issues (mainly death wobble) and the buying public spends most of its time on pavement than dirt. Not all of us can afford a dedicated trail/overland rig so compromising slightly on the capability (lockers, SFA) for some daily driving comfort isn't the end of the world.

Buyers want more car-like handling which is part of why IFS has taken over in the entire truck/body on frame SUV space short of 3/4 ton+.
Mmmm.. I would maybe instead say "the majority of buyers". One of the big appeals for me to the JT, aside from it being a Jeep - is specifically the fact it had a solid front axle. To me, any other choice is meh. Even though I dont do hard core off road - my thing is, being in the location I live in and doing what I do, I want a vehicle with capabilities that FAR exceed what I likely will actually do - in the event there is a situation, say a road or bridge washout, and the only way is forward. Because out here - those situations are more common than one would think.

BTW, I encourage you to side by side test a stock Mojave and Rubicon. The Mojave is far superior on the road. Alarmingly so.
I have never even ridden in a Mojave. But - I still like the front locker of the Rubi. And once it's lifted, isn't the benefit of the Mojave a moot point? I thought I have read that on a few Mojave lift threads, maybe thats not the case. It would be super awesome if they added front locker abilities on the Mojave as well.


That's a fair point. For my needs, my next truck is either a Mojave or a Trailhunter and aside from a cap and rack, either would remain mostly stock.

But if I was building a truck I'd probably start with a Sport Max Tow over a Rubicon. ;)
I initially ordered a Max Tow - but, things happened and I ended up with a Rubi off the lot in the color I wanted and all the options I was interested and none of the ones I didn't (except I dislike leather seats). That being said, if my Max Tow order happened, looking back, I would have been very disappointed and probably traded it in for a Rubi anyway.

I think my next truck, unless I upgrade to a newer JTR before I get too much older, will honestly likely be a Ram 2500 - maybe a PW or a Rebel. And outfitted with an Alaskan camper, and towing behind it my rebuilt 06 TJ G.E. I honestly don't see myself being in the capacity to do super remote trips to unknown road situations much like I do now. Just because of life and medical problems. So likely in the future, I will rather want to 'boon-dock' for a long weekend at a central known somewhat developed (at least a fire ring and place to park) campground, and then take the TJ out on day trips from there. But - I hope health improves and those days are 15 years or more away.




I'll refine that-- TRD Pro vs Mojave, Overland vs Limited, Willys vs TRD Off Road. Rubicon is on its own because of the lockers/sways.
I think at the end of the day - this right here is the final blow. Comparing the price of the Rubicon to the price of the TRD pro, and then discounting all the extras that the JTR offers really does disservice to Jeep and to the pricing. I still think it's too expensive - but in today's economy, everything is stupid. I just paid almost 8 bucks today for a half cup of fresh raspberries, only to get home and find they tasted terrible.... But I digress. I think it is more appropriate to compare the TRD to the Mojave - which, I think is a little cheaper than the JTR? But even then, it's still a difficult comparison because the JT in and of itself is set pretty far apart from Tacoma, or Ranger, or Chevy. I mean it's a solid front axle, and really, at the heart, built for a different purpose. IMO, the designers were truly targeting the Rubi and Mojave when designing the JT, and all the other versions - max tow, overland, etc... are just stripped down versions of what the designers were going for knowing more would be interested in a cheaper less capable version, as you accurately suggested. But, to me, the very heart of design intention behind the JT is quite a lot different than that of Toyota or Ford.... So I have a hard time understanding the cost comparison there.
 

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Can you get painted fender flares on a Mojave? Or do you have to get the Mojave x?
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