Looking for some Advice...

[Lunentucker]

Well I will just jump right into it. Now I do drive a Gladiator, however My wife has a 2023 Jeep Wrangler and today she went and got her "Jeep Wave" oil change (2nd oil change of the vehicles life). Upon leaving everything seemed ok, until I got a phone call that her wrangler just broke down on her and my 2 year old kid in the middle of a major road after hearing an extremely loud "knocking & Ticking" sound. Just to be clear I have worked on cars my whole life an ex Manager of Goodyear, Merchants/NTB. So I instantly knew the issue.... Oil change and knocking eh? I showed up pulled the stick it is BONE DRY I mean nothing on there at all. Slid under the Jeep and wouldnt you know it NO OIL DRAIN PLUG AT ALL. Assuming they screwed it on there loose and it vibrated its way out. Now the issue is in my mind the motor on this brand new vehicle is ruined, I don't care what they will tell me which is sure will be "the engine is fine" which we all know is BS especially since I traced the road back and saw the spill which looks to be a little over a 1/4 mile she drove with 0 oil before the oil pressure sensor kicked in at a stop sign and shut her down.

Now the advice is how do I handle the dealer, you see I feel like I shouldn't accept anything other than a new vehicle as I know and everyone knows that years and countless miles have been lost on this motor today. Basically Am I actually going to have to get a lawyer? Are there any dealership people out there that can help with a bit of advice on how to handle this situation? I don't want to barge in there and be a complete jerk, But I do want what is right here and not to spend over 60k on a brand new Jeep only to have its life cut short.

YIKES!
And I bought from a Raleigh dealer, but I never wanted a free oil change, for reason apparent.
I would document every conversation and correspondence. If the conversations are face to face or by phone then make notes with dates, times, and key points of discussion.
Email would be better.
Give the dealer a chance to make it right, but only to suit your notion of what's right, not theirs.
Personally, I'd want a whole new engine, part and parcel.

If they don't come through, then lawyer up.

Do your own maintenance and document it in the app or the website.
Oil changes almost always go to "the new kid".

Sponsored

 

[ShadowsPapa]

@Rdizz

First off, I feel bad that this has happened but as many have said, give the dealer a chance to make it right. There is certainly a litany of things that you can do once they say "Not my pig, not my farm" but give them the chance to disappoint you first; then let loose the dogs of war.

******************************************************************************************
Now [RANT INCOMING], not related to the OP or the actual dilemma he is facing, I would like to sound off a bit about some of the comments in this thread related to Jeep Service/Technicians and this apparent distrust of ever allowing them to do oil changes, tire rotations, etc. to a vehicle. Several times in this thread and in soooo many other threads there is always the proclamation "I will never let the dealer work on my car" (or something similar).

These statements to me are incredulous. I assume that everyone who makes that statement has a job and have screwed up at least once in the course of doing that job and yet can then turn around and villify a Jeep Technician for making a mistake. I'm 59 years old and can't tell you how many times I have been to a McDonald's drive-thru and found out once I got home that they got the order wrong....I'll still go to McDonald's. How many times has my doctor's office billed me incorrectly...still go to that doctor. How many times has my electrical service provider had an outage while I was watching "the big game"...and they still keep my lights on day in and day out.

I know that one could argue that the wrong size order of fries is a far cry different than a failed engine...but it's still just a mistake. When I was younger, I forgot to put the oil cap back on after doing an oil change on my CJ7. It happens. Just yesterday I was fabricating a new bracket for my awning and measured, marked and drilled hole in the bracket only to find I had them out of orientation by 180 degrees....so I had to redo the bracket

These statements would make someone believe that the Jeep Techs are "out to get you" and are in collusion with the sales team to try to get you to buy a new car or some other ridiculous conspiracy. People make mistakes and it should really be about how they handle correcting that mistake that is at issue. And just because someone somewhere one time had a bad interaction shouldn't mean that everybody everywhere all the time will have similar bad interactions. If that was the case, I should never allow myself to do another oil change on my own vehicle ever again (because of the oil cap incident from above). How many of the people here that say that they don't trust anyone else to do maintenance on their vehicle can HONESTLY say that they have never screwed up installing, removing, etc. something on their vehicle. This forum is rife with threads of us guys posting "I just stripped this bolt", "I just drilled through this wire", "I just drove 40 miles on pavement in 4H"...."What should I do?".

I currently have 3 Jeeps and for the last 7, 5, & 3 years I have taken full advantage of Jeep Wave Oil Changes and Tire Rotations. The only thing that I have "suffered" is that they pump my tires up to 40psi or forget to check the air in the spare that was rotated on. I have had a failed ECU replaced under warranty, a damaged gas tank replaced, and several other things done that I didn't feel like doing myself, all without issue. Many (many) years ago I had a dealership forget to put the lugs back on my XJ's rear passenger tire and when I turned left out of their lot, that wheel kept going straight. They hauled the XJ back into the bay and repaired the damaged lugs and brakes.

I agree that Stellantis and the dealerships are trying to make a buck and I don't agree with some of their sleezy tactics (bait and switch sales tactics, price gouging, and a lot of other policies); BUT as a Jeep enthusiast community, can we all just stop demonizing the techs who are just humans (like us) and prone to make mistakes, especially when under the time constraints that their management puts on them to churn out completed jobs. I truly don't believe that any of those techs wake up in the morning, put their Jeep uniform on and say "Who's life am I going to ruin today?"

Who's with me?

I followed the advice of a couple of friends and raised my own rates to a level I thought crazy, no one will ever have me work on anything again.
Instead, it filtered out the whiners and complainers and cheap-asses and now my customers are more quality-minded people and send stuff never even asking "how much". They say "let me know how much you need when it's done" or "let me know if you want money in advance".
I've been lucky and caught my screw-ups before sending things back out - I'm so paranoid that way, but few can do what I do because of their not being in full control of their own time. I have put an alternator on the test bench only to have it make horrible sounds, bad growling - oops, there's supposed to be another bearing in there. I was distracted and doing 3 at once. That's really a bad thing for someone like me with ADHD to do - multiple things on the bench at one time. I screwed up.
I caught it - but what if...........
What if I had sent that out - and the guy installed it? OUCH - could have been a really bad thing! I've broken parts - and then spent a ton of time resolving that problem......
i made mistakes as an IT admin at work - I brought a critical server to its knees in the middle of a production day. I told the boss - I screwed up, I'll fix it immediately. (I told him I messed up before he started getting complaints) SQL servers can be sort of picky at times.
The admin that retired so that I ended up in that spot as an admin pushed out an update that took out a half dozen Cisco ASAs, bricked them. The boss still trusted him with all things.
Another IT staffer who at that time controlled the push of Windows OS updates to hundreds of computers screwed up the push and took down several offices - she wasn't fired (it was a goof - he just told her - don't ever run updates out to that many at once again. I told the boss that it was as much Microsoft's fault as hers)

Fix it, learn from it, move on.

 

[Lunentucker]

I followed the advice of a couple of friends and raised my own rates to a level I thought crazy, no one will ever have me work on anything again.
Instead, it filtered out the whiners and complainers and cheap-asses and now my customers are more quality-minded people and send stuff never even asking "how much". They say "let me know how much you need when it's done" or "let me know if you want money in advance".
I've been lucky and caught my screw-ups before sending things back out - I'm so paranoid that way, but few can do what I do because of their not being in full control of their own time. I have put an alternator on the test bench only to have it make horrible sounds, bad growling - oops, there's supposed to be another bearing in there. I was distracted and doing 3 at once. That's really a bad thing for someone like me with ADHD to do - multiple things on the bench at one time. I screwed up.
I caught it - but what if...........
What if I had sent that out - and the guy installed it? OUCH - could have been a really bad thing! I've broken parts - and then spent a ton of time resolving that problem......
i made mistakes as an IT admin at work - I brought a critical server to its knees in the middle of a production day. I told the boss - I screwed up, I'll fix it immediately. (I told him I messed up before he started getting complaints) SQL servers can be sort of picky at times.
The admin that retired so that I ended up in that sport pushed out an update that took out a half dozen Cisco ASAs, bricked them. The boss still trusted him with all things.
Another IT staffer who at that time controlled the push of Windows OS updates to hundreds of computers screwed up the push and took down several offices - she wasn't fired (it was a goof - he just told her - don't ever run updates out to that many at once again. I told the boss that it was as much Microsoft's fault as hers)

Fix it, learn from it, move on.

I deemed them "Serial Muckers" a long long time ago.

Look what they bought for me!! ??

 

[HooliganActual]

Exactly. As @Lunentucker said in the post just above yours, “Oil changes almost always go to the “new kid”. They haven’t learned those “hard lessons” yet. As I always tell my kids right after they make some big mistake in their personal lives or at work, “Good decisions come from experience; experience comes from bad decisions”.

There is a basic tenet that everyone seems to forget…Caveat Emptor. There isn’t a service I have performed by another that I don’t verify myself once they say it is complete. I don’t drive off the dealer’s lot until I check the dip stick, tire pressures or whatever they worked on. When the plumber comes to fix the toilet, I make sure it will flush before he leaves.

Trust but verify.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Things will never change and people will never learn if they aren't allowed a mistake.
Of all of the dozens of dealer oil changes we've had done over the years, only one time was a simple mistake made at any of the 3 dealers we've ever used. That was the 6 quarts in the 5 quart JT.
I understood because muscle memory after doing 100 oil changes on Grand Cherokees over time has you "Jeep, 3.6 = 6 quarts" day after day after day.......... the 3.6 takes 6 quarts.
Oops, Jeep made a change and that dealership hadn't been selling many JTs for very long and at that time, it's likely few even were ready for an oil change. I had put a lot of miles on mine and had it done before most would have.
I understood - I got it - I worked in shops for years, did too many oil changes to bother remembering. I wasn't the slightest bit upset, but figured someone needed a reminder and if I let it go - then they'd just keep on doing what they were doing.
Do-overs cost money, look bad.

I've had dealerships do oil changes and tire rotations for many years and that one simple muscle-memory mistake has been the only and biggest problem to date.

Do I check things over? Sure I do. "Trust but verify" seems to be the thing with me.

 

[Lunentucker]

When I was 12, my best friend's dad told him to go out and drain the oil from the pickup and he'd be out in a little while to show him how to do the filter and refill the crankcase.
Dad made assumptions, because he was a mechanic, and all three of his boys had spent countless hours at his service station watching him do these things.

When pops came out, the last drop rear diff oil was trickling into the pan.

The point?

The young and inexperienced don't like to answer the "You know how to do this, right?" question with no, and sound young and inexperienced.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

When I was 12, my best friend's dad told him to go out and drain the oil from the pickup and he'd be out in a little while to show him how to do the filter and refill the crankcase.
Dad made assumptions, because he was a mechanic, and all three of his boys had spent countless hours at his service station watching him do these things.

When pops came out, the last drop rear diff oil was trickling into the pan.

The point?

The young and inexperienced don't like to answer the "You know how to do this, right?" question with no, and sound young and inexperienced.

I can't even count the times when I was inexperienced in something and told them so with a "no".
I was usually saying "show me" or finding a book.
I'd rather admit I don't now how than to imply I do and screwing something up badly - seen as an even worse thing.

 

[Lunentucker]

I can't even count the times when I was inexperienced in something and told them so with a "no".
I was usually saying "show me" or finding a book.
I'd rather admit I don't now how than to imply I do and screwing something up badly - seen as an even worse thing.

Not everyone is built like we are.

 

[Bevo67]

You would do that BEFORE they even have a chance to make it right ?
I hope I never have an accident with you ?

Hi Sarge - No, I said in another reply basically saying the same thing you just said that I'd, of course, talk to the dealer first. I know stuff happens and people make honest mistakes. From the OP, I was saying that its on option to think about and, if he finds no joy in their response, its a just another approach.

 

[Scott0700]

This is how my dealer tried to give me back my Jeep after a transmission replacement. They could have killed me.
“No one will ever do what you expect, only what you inspect”.

 

[Wheelin98TJ]

I once watched a friend pour new oil right through the fill and out the drain hole. He forgot to put the drain plug back in before filling it. ?

 

[kevman65]

Having been through this same exact scenario with Oldsmobile back in the `90s, at minimum they owe you a replacement engine and labor to change out engines.

You can negotiate for more, but in reality all they screwed up was the engine.

My wife got an exact replacement, one year newer, just because they had one on the lot and it was easier on the dealership to go that route.

Now, my biggest harp, do NOT let the dealership do oil changes on your vehicle. The people that do them are not Techs, not Mechanics. They are students from the local school who are supposed to be supervised by a certified tech at all times, but usually aren't.

 

[BourbonRunner]

I once watched a friend pour new oil right through the fill and out the drain hole. He forgot to put the drain plug back in before filling it. ?

Well, I don't know you but I've done that once. Once. Was on a lawn mower and I was about 15 but I certainly learned my lesson!

@OP:

You're in the same field as me. So here's a little realtor to realtor negotiation advice:

Everything in writing.

When you have a conversation with the service manager, you must immediately follow up with an email to confirm and codify the discussion as an exercise in CYA.

You should also consider CC'ing anyone else at the dealer that is a decision maker. The GM, Sales Mgr, and so on. Direct the message to the person you spoke with with them on the CC line so they see you're not screwing around. It's a very clear way of speaking softly and carrying a big stick. I often have to do that when I get a shitty agent on the other side and need their manager or broker to be aware before I really ruin their day.

Be professional, be courteous, and be strategic. Yes, you get more flies with honey but that doesn't mean there isn't a stinger out there, too.

And document everything with the most specific timeline you can, putting that in the email so all can see. I once went head to head with the CEO of the largest relo co in the country and their corporate client's head of relocation (thing big 3 defense contractor) and won because I documented everything that went on and proved to both my seller and their boss that the relo co screwed up.

IE:

Dear X-

Per our conversation earlier today we discussed the situation and the options available.

To recap the timeline of events:

--On X date my wife had her 202X Wrangler's oil changed by X tech at your location.
--She had a catastrophic loss of oil pressure causing untold damage to the motor.
--It bears to reason that the technician did not appropriately install the oil plug and torque to factory specs as the pictures below show that at one point there was oil in the pan (attached) that drained out at the stop sign at X. (attached).

I understand mistakes happen and I appreciate your willingness to correct this issue, but at this point the only thing that I will consider is a complete replacement of the motor and all associated components.

My concern is there is more damage internally than anyone can tell and this could become an issue further down the road. While my motor is being replaced, due to the inconvenience, I am requesting a comparable Wrangler to ours since I will be continuing to pay Chrysler Capital for the duration on a vehicle I cannot drive.

I appreciate your assistance and look forward to resolving this amicably and expeditiously.

Best regards,

And... If you ever need a referral agent for the Baltimore area, I'm your guy. 100% referrals only here and many years in Buffini. It's a good life!

 

[dayusmc]

First let me start off by saying This Is Not Intended To Be Legal Advice.

Second, it sucks that this happened to you. This is exactly why I am the only one I let change all our cars oil. Personally if I were you, I would start changing my oil myself. Most of the time "Free isn't Free"

Now, I wouldn't hire an attorney yet, you will most likely be wasting your money. There are WAY more bad attorneys out there than good attorneys. And what I mean about bad attorneys is the ones that will soak you for money and not get results. If, in the end you have to hire an attorney, make sure it is one that specializes in this type of law/situation. If you go to an attorney's website and there is more than two related practice areas stay away! Also you would have to go after the individual dealership, not Big Jeep.

Not sure what state you are in, but most states are roughly the same. Meaning they only have to make it comparable to how it was before they broke it. So unfortunately a used motor with same miles will satisfy that. If you try and bring up dimished value, you will have to prove that in court with evidence. I know, it sucks.

If you can get the dealer to put a new motor in it that might be your best case scenario. Maybe get a letter from the general manager or owner of the dealership guaranteeing they will give you trade in value for your jeep the same as if the Jeep didn't have this repair. I know you might want to go to a different dealership or even buy a different type of car, but try and get this letter just in case...

When I go up against attorneys that are "general attorneys" meaning they practice in a lot of different areas, they are the easiest to beat. A letter from an attorney will go right to another attorney. The first thing that attorney will do is research the attorney that wrote the letter. If they see it is a General attorney, they will laugh and probably offer you less or be very difficult. Most attorneys very first strategy is to try and run the other person out of money by prolonging litigation.

I practice Family Law and Tax Law. Tax Law only because I do high end divorces that usually Tax consequences....

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Now, my biggest harp, do NOT let the dealership do oil changes on your vehicle. The people that do them are not Techs, not Mechanics. They are students from the local school who are supposed to be supervised by a certified tech at all times, but usually aren't.

Wow, not sure where your dealership is, but that's not the case here. In fact, if I dig back I bet I can find the video one dealership sent me while doing the wave oil change and tire rotation. I could hear and see him and he was no kid in school just learning what a 10mm socket looks like.

That's almost funny. You must live in Mexico or something.
Not sure how a certified tech can supervise oil changes when they are usually over-worked with their own work to do.
Maybe act as a supervisor, but they can't be in two places at once doing two things. They make their money on the jobs they submit tickets for - not running around watching others. Supervising beginners takes time and no certified tech is going to want to be missing out on money running back and forth and checking up and being supervisor.

But like I said - it's sure not that way around here.

A few owners on forums will scream really loud "don't do it! They mess up" while hundreds of thousands of Jeep and Ram owners use dealerships for - gas- oil changes, without issue. Few Jeep vehicles are owned by those who do their own oil changes, but the forum makes it look like everyone does due to a vocal few on the topic.
My wife has always gone to dealerships for such work, all her life - almost 50 years worth - never a problem.

Sponsored