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Loose steering-dealers response

Adawg1203

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Any car or truck, you should be able to test drive one on the lot and get a feel for how THAT model with THAT engine and THAT transmission and THAT gear ratio handles and drives and rides.
Then, as in my case, you order one in the color you want, the interior you want and should be able to feel confident that your vehicle will perform, steer, handle and ride like the one you drove.
There should be no reason to have to test drive every individual example of a given model, given engine, given transmission to make sure the steering isn't loose.
If you are satisfied with one on the lot and say to them, yes, but I want one in blue, black leather and not brown, with the larger screen system and know it's going to be fine because one almost like it was perfect when you drove it.
There's no reason in the world you have to test drive every single example of the same make and model because the color is different or the fenders are black instead of blue.
The consumer must be able to have some expectations that if the one they build for you has a problem or a major difference, the company will take care of it.
I drove 'em on the lot but they didn't have the color we wanted with the blue fenders and blue roof and a couple of other options. So we ordered. We were VERY happy with how the ones on the lot drove and handled and felt. Very happy - and that should be enough. You should not have to expect that every one off the line is going to be different in how it steers - the steering should be identical on every Overland ever made, every Sport S made, every Rubicon made - there should be little difference in ride because of different options, some, but not night and day. But the steering parts are the same on all of them - the track bar, the control arms, the steering sector, drag links, etc. (ok, there MAY be a tiny difference because of the wider axles on the Rubicon and Sport S max tow but even that shouldn't impact steering - just perhaps a bit on the ride or handling in heavy winds)
The track bar and links and other stuff I got as "Rubicon take-offs" are identical to the parts on my Overland.

I picked mine up at 6 pm in the middle of West Des Moines rush - it took several minutes just to get onto a street, then it was crazy stop and go to get to the interstate and I got to test that 3.6's guts and acceleration risking my life getting onto I35 southbound.
(anyone wonder what it's like - people from other states cuss our drivers - a friend from Toronto flew to Eugene, then drove his wife-to-be's car back to Toronto and came through Iowa - he said Iowa drivers sucked the worst of his whole trip - rude, cutting him off, fingering him, he was glad as heck to get out of Wes Des Moines especially)
The only way to have gotten a "test drive" for my specific special order JT would have been to gone back mid-morning when it was a bit calmer - but why? I already drove JTs from the lot.
We drove examples on the lot, they steered, handled and rode great. The expectation was that a truck made with my colors and radio screen size should do the same. IF not, then that's their problem - fix it.

When we trade GCs every 2 to 2.5 years, we drive one or two examples, then pick the options we want when we are satisfied that the trim level she wants is what we're going to get - no need to test drive the exact specific vehicle if the others were fine - unless FCA screws one up - then it's up to them to make it as good as the others we drove.
My son test drove a couple of Compass Jeeps - but they weren't the options he wanted. So they found him one - he had no need to test drive it because he knew he wanted on. If that one had steered badly or had some issues - then THAT one has a problem - they would have needed to fix it.

I can see the ultimate protection would be a long 15 minutes test drive of the exact vehicle you are getting, not just examples, and on all road surfaces, all road crowns, all speeds, wind, no wind and so on. But that's not always possible or practical. Maybe it's not windy that day, maybe the roads there don't have a crown and your roads do - maybe the opposite, maybe the speed limits in that whole area are 55 - and you travel interstates at 70....... you can't test for all situations, all roads, all wind speeds and directions, all highway speeds.

Just laying out some explanations for the numbers of those with issues vs. why wasn't it found before driving away with it..........
Iā€˜s not too often i disagree with you but on this I do but not in its entirety. There is absolutely every reason in the world to test the vehicle you are brining home. I get your point but when you are dropping 40K, 50K, and higher that to me is reason enough. Knowing what you are getting for the money you are spending in my eyes is due diligence. That falls completely on the buyer.

Look this isnā€™t some Camry, accord, and whatever extremely high quality vehicles there are out there we are talking about. Those vehicle i agree choose the color and throw me the keys and Iā€™ll sign and drive away.

The vehicle we are talking about is a FIRST year model. Not taking it even around the block would be irresponsible on the buyerā€™s part. Look i special ordered my LE. Doesnā€™t mean i wasnā€™t going to give it a whirl before signing on the dotted line. You beat on the test vehicle you donā€™t plan to buy and you baby the one you plan to bring home. Regardless, if you order different color or features.

My whole point to making a comment was out of curiosity, to identify was the vehicle ā€˜unsafeā€™ at point of transaction or did it ā€˜becomeā€™ unsafe later on. Maybe because of modifications, I donā€™t know but was curious.

Anyway, in my case I wouldnā€™t gamble on not testing the vehicle Iā€™m actually purchasing prior to bringing home. I do get your point some cases/circumstances you roll with it.

Buyers have to take responsibility on knowing what they are purchasing BEFORE they purchase. Donā€™t say after you brought a new vehicle home, that is when you discovered there was 6 inches of play in the steering wheel. It wasnā€™t there when you test drove it? Obviously Iā€™m making that up but you get the point I was trying to make.

Anyway thatā€˜s my two cents or less.
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Adawg1203

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I wonā€™t flip out, but I certainly donā€™t appreciate you putting the blame on me Or anyone as the purchaser, really.

The details, since youā€™re ā€œcuriousā€:

There was no way I would have any idea before purchasing, I drove three vehicles prior, locally, in town driving as I was NOT aware there was a steering issue. Two drove wonderfully, one was a bit loose, I didnā€™t even think of it, like most people have commented the issue is exacerbated at highway speeds.

I purchased my Jeep almost 200 miles from home, because I followed the ā€œbreak inā€ suggestions I took ā€œside streetsā€ most of the way home, ONCE I GOT ON THE FREEWAY (less than 30 miles from home) THE SLOPPY STEERING WAS EVIDENT! Turning around and driving a minimum of 3.5 hours back to a closed dealership was NOT an option.


You donā€™t notice it at ā€œin town speedsā€ we didnā€™t drive on the highway during any of our test drives, I donā€™t know that Iā€™ve ever driven a test drive on the highway.

So to your question: ā€œwas it ā€œdangerousā€ on highwayā€ yes, of course it was nothing happened to make the steering suddenly go bad itā€™s a defect, nothing more nothing less. Did I know? Hell no! How would I until driving at highway speeds? Although present itā€™s not obviously evident at slower speeds, in town driving. Once you know itā€™s obvious, otherwise you assume itā€™s the ā€œgetting used toā€ period, until you realize itā€™s nothing you want to get used to.

When I purchased it, did I say something to the dealer? No, I didnā€™t know there was an issue until I was miles, and hours away.
Of course I let them know during business hours the next day.
I also said something to my local Jeep Dealer? (where all of my warranty work will be done) Iā€™ve mentioned it more than once, going back in this week.

ā€œWhy purchase a vehicle I ā€œfeltā€ was dangerous?ā€ First I donā€™t ā€œfeelā€œ that itā€™s dangerous, it IS dangerous. The wheel has slop that is exacerbated in high winds, in and out of mountain and valley driving, in high traffic situations especially with semi trucks etc. I live in LA, the majority of my driving is ALL OF THE ABOVE!!

Even if I had an inkling, I find it strange that anyone purchasing a new vehicle should have to endure shoddy craftsmanship. This isnā€™t some pos used Chevy (btw my 12 year old Silverado drove better, our 2018 Wrangler drove better, by neighborā€™s, my cousinā€™s, my best friends Jeeps ALL drive better...no dead spot, no slop...again it is a manufacturing DEFECT!)

We didnā€™t have an opportunity during our test drives to experience the alarming, dangerous steering issues.

It is certainly a learning experience, in the future I WILL drive any Jeep vehicle Iā€™m interested in, on the highway, I will also drive THE vehicle Iā€™m interested in. If the dealer wonā€™t allow it, I wonā€™t purchase there, it will certainly be an issue, no dealers here allow a ā€œfree formā€ driving experience on test drives, itā€™s ā€œgo straight, turn here...ā€
Isnā€™t it unfortunate that safety from vehicle to vehicle is a concern with Jeeps?

So sure, you can insinuate that itā€™s my fault or that itā€™s not an issue but it ISNā€™T and there IS!
First, I was NOT insinuating anything hence the questions. Second, when did I blame you? Thirdly, I NEVER said it wasnā€™t an issue. In fact Iā€™ve read a plenty about it.

My head isnā€™t in the sand on issues folks raise. I donā€™t believe in unresolved defects especially when it comes to safety. That not only jeapordizes the driver but others on the road.

Iā€™m not interested in a war of words, clarifications or explanations on comments. Lesson learned for me which is not to ask questions in a forum. I hope your issue gets resolved.
 

Rayzzz

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Winding North Carolina roads are very challenging with good steering but when the steering is loose it's down right scary with loose steering. I will never buy a vehicle again in my life unless I can test drive it for a whole day and other cars I have purchased they said drive it and bring it back when your ready. Expensive lesson learned after buying lots of new cars in my life.
 

ShadowsPapa

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Iā€˜s not too often i disagree with you but on this I do but not in its entirety. There is absolutely every reason in the world to test the vehicle you are brining home. I get your point but when you are dropping 40K, 50K, and higher that to me is reason enough. Knowing what you are getting for the money you are spending in my eyes is due diligence. That falls completely on the buyer.

Look this isnā€™t some Camry, accord, and whatever extremely high quality vehicles there are out there we are talking about. Those vehicle i agree choose the color and throw me the keys and Iā€™ll sign and drive away.

The vehicle we are talking about is a FIRST year model. Not taking it even around the block would be irresponsible on the buyerā€™s part. Look i special ordered my LE. Doesnā€™t mean i wasnā€™t going to give it a whirl before signing on the dotted line. You beat on the test vehicle you donā€™t plan to buy and you baby the one you plan to bring home. Regardless, if you order different color or features.

My whole point to making a comment was out of curiosity, to identify was the vehicle ā€˜unsafeā€™ at point of transaction or did it ā€˜becomeā€™ unsafe later on. Maybe because of modifications, I donā€™t know but was curious.

Anyway, in my case I wouldnā€™t gamble on not testing the vehicle Iā€™m actually purchasing prior to bringing home. I do get your point some cases/circumstances you roll with it.

Buyers have to take responsibility on knowing what they are purchasing BEFORE they purchase. Donā€™t say after you brought a new vehicle home, that is when you discovered there was 6 inches of play in the steering wheel. It wasnā€™t there when you test drove it? Obviously Iā€™m making that up but you get the point I was trying to make.

Anyway thatā€˜s my two cents or less.
This isn't really new technology and it's hardly a "first year model" in ways connected to the steering or suspension. The solid axle steering has been around for a century and this type for decades. Heck, many parts interchange with other models.
I've written papers for submission to administrative law judges, and the terms like "assumption by a reasonable person" come into play here - a person should be able to assume that since one drives fine, others like it made in the same factory with the same parts should also. If this were to go to court - FCA loses. It's reasonable to assume, by an ordinary person, that driving samples gives you a feel for how any of that model and trim level steer.
That's a reasonable assumption by an ordinary person.

As far as modifications, no, that's never been in play. From day one people have talked about bone-stock, non-modified, standard factory supplied tires, no lifts, etc. doing this.
 

Adawg1203

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This isn't really new technology and it's hardly a "first year model" in ways connected to the steering or suspension. The solid axle steering has been around for a century and this type for decades. Heck, many parts interchange with other models.
I've written papers for submission to administrative law judges, and the terms like "assumption by a reasonable person" come into play here - a person should be able to assume that since one drives fine, others like it made in the same factory with the same parts should also. If this were to go to court - FCA loses. It's reasonable to assume, by an ordinary person, that driving samples gives you a feel for how any of that model and trim level steer.
That's a reasonable assumption by an ordinary person.

As far as modifications, no, that's never been in play. From day one people have talked about bone-stock, non-modified, standard factory supplied tires, no lifts, etc. doing this.
Semantics. I'm talking model only. Regardless of how old the tech is or how many parts are shared with other models past or present it doesn't negate the fact the gladiator is a first year model. I get the point your making.

I agree with your other points. I'm not law educated so you're getting out of my league. That said, reasonable assumption by a responsible person sounds fine in litigation terms. Would that be a practical approach when buying a vehicle?

That said, you mentioned IF this were to go to court. Class action? Unfortunately, it sounds as though that may be the only way to get addressed??? Maybe??? Where does NHTSA stand on this? Do you know?
 

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Iā€˜s not too often i disagree with you but on this I do but not in its entirety. There is absolutely every reason in the world to test the vehicle you are brining home. I get your point but when you are dropping 40K, 50K, and higher that to me is reason enough. Knowing what you are getting for the money you are spending in my eyes is due diligence. That falls completely on the buyer.

Look this isnā€™t some Camry, accord, and whatever extremely high quality vehicles there are out there we are talking about. Those vehicle i agree choose the color and throw me the keys and Iā€™ll sign and drive away.

The vehicle we are talking about is a FIRST year model. Not taking it even around the block would be irresponsible on the buyerā€™s part. Look i special ordered my LE. Doesnā€™t mean i wasnā€™t going to give it a whirl before signing on the dotted line. You beat on the test vehicle you donā€™t plan to buy and you baby the one you plan to bring home. Regardless, if you order different color or features.

My whole point to making a comment was out of curiosity, to identify was the vehicle ā€˜unsafeā€™ at point of transaction or did it ā€˜becomeā€™ unsafe later on. Maybe because of modifications, I donā€™t know but was curious.

Anyway, in my case I wouldnā€™t gamble on not testing the vehicle Iā€™m actually purchasing prior to bringing home. I do get your point some cases/circumstances you roll with it.

Buyers have to take responsibility on knowing what they are purchasing BEFORE they purchase. Donā€™t say after you brought a new vehicle home, that is when you discovered there was 6 inches of play in the steering wheel. It wasnā€™t there when you test drove it? Obviously Iā€™m making that up but you get the point I was trying to make.

Anyway thatā€˜s my two cents or less.
And how about the Wrangler... ;)
 

ShadowsPapa

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Semantics. I'm talking model only. Regardless of how old the tech is or how many parts are shared with other models past or present it doesn't negate the fact the gladiator is a first year model. I get the point your making.

I agree with your other points. I'm not law educated so you're getting out of my league. That said, reasonable assumption by a responsible person sounds fine in litigation terms. Would that be a practical approach when buying a vehicle?

That said, you mentioned IF this were to go to court. Class action? Unfortunately, it sounds as though that may be the only way to get addressed??? Maybe??? Where does NHTSA stand on this? Do you know?
I have not checked status lately. Earlier in the spring I found a number of complaints addressed to them. Unfortunately, even the feds don't do much until the first person is killed or there are fires. And these days with the craziness of the virus - many places are short-staffed, shorter hours and so on. The state agency I used to work in - pretty much 100% "work from home" and thank goodness I am no longer there!
 

TheGreatCO

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I wonā€™t flip out, but I certainly donā€™t appreciate you putting the blame on me Or anyone as the purchaser, really.

The details, since youā€™re ā€œcuriousā€:

There was no way I would have any idea before purchasing, I drove three vehicles prior, locally, in town driving as I was NOT aware there was a steering issue. Two drove wonderfully, one was a bit loose, I didnā€™t even think of it, like most people have commented the issue is exacerbated at highway speeds.

I purchased my Jeep almost 200 miles from home, because I followed the ā€œbreak inā€ suggestions I took ā€œside streetsā€ most of the way home, ONCE I GOT ON THE FREEWAY (less than 30 miles from home) THE SLOPPY STEERING WAS EVIDENT! Turning around and driving a minimum of 3.5 hours back to a closed dealership was NOT an option.


You donā€™t notice it at ā€œin town speedsā€ we didnā€™t drive on the highway during any of our test drives, I donā€™t know that Iā€™ve ever driven a test drive on the highway.

So to your question: ā€œwas it ā€œdangerousā€ on highwayā€ yes, of course it was nothing happened to make the steering suddenly go bad itā€™s a defect, nothing more nothing less. Did I know? Hell no! How would I until driving at highway speeds? Although present itā€™s not obviously evident at slower speeds, in town driving. Once you know itā€™s obvious, otherwise you assume itā€™s the ā€œgetting used toā€ period, until you realize itā€™s nothing you want to get used to.

When I purchased it, did I say something to the dealer? No, I didnā€™t know there was an issue until I was miles, and hours away.
Of course I let them know during business hours the next day.
I also said something to my local Jeep Dealer? (where all of my warranty work will be done) Iā€™ve mentioned it more than once, going back in this week.

ā€œWhy purchase a vehicle I ā€œfeltā€ was dangerous?ā€ First I donā€™t ā€œfeelā€œ that itā€™s dangerous, it IS dangerous. The wheel has slop that is exacerbated in high winds, in and out of mountain and valley driving, in high traffic situations especially with semi trucks etc. I live in LA, the majority of my driving is ALL OF THE ABOVE!!

Even if I had an inkling, I find it strange that anyone purchasing a new vehicle should have to endure shoddy craftsmanship. This isnā€™t some pos used Chevy (btw my 12 year old Silverado drove better, our 2018 Wrangler drove better, by neighborā€™s, my cousinā€™s, my best friends Jeeps ALL drive better...no dead spot, no slop...again it is a manufacturing DEFECT!)

We didnā€™t have an opportunity during our test drives to experience the alarming, dangerous steering issues.

It is certainly a learning experience, in the future I WILL drive any Jeep vehicle Iā€™m interested in, on the highway, I will also drive THE vehicle Iā€™m interested in. If the dealer wonā€™t allow it, I wonā€™t purchase there, it will certainly be an issue, no dealers here allow a ā€œfree formā€ driving experience on test drives, itā€™s ā€œgo straight, turn here...ā€
Isnā€™t it unfortunate that safety from vehicle to vehicle is a concern with Jeeps?

So sure, you can insinuate that itā€™s my fault or that itā€™s not an issue but it ISNā€™T and there IS!
THIS!
 

ShadowsPapa

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And how about the Wrangler... ;)
Yup. The "technology" is far from new. First model year for the Gladiator or not - only with used cars should you have to drive every example. I don't care if it's a Focus, Volt, Durango, or a Bronco, this is all hind sight now bringing up that you should test drive every single one, especially one you ordered. 1 year ago no one would have been saying that.
It's all because of this issue. I've been involved in buying cars every 2 to 2.5 years for the last 30 years. Even my very first new car, my first AMX, I knew how those cars rode, drove and handled, I ordered one, and when the dealer said it was ready, I drove it home. When it was totaled 9 months and 9,000 miles later, I went to another dealer for a replacement and simply told them which one I'd take. It was new, didn't drive it because I had owned one for 9 months.
( it drove, rode, steered, handled EXACTLY like my first one.)

We can argue would've, could've, should've, all night long, but the point remains, if you drive one of that model, and like the ride, anything mass produced by the hundreds should be the same with only minor variations. The reason it comes up now is because of the problem, otherwise who was saying you should drive every single one to be sure they all steer the same?
 

KHam

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Steering box adjustment is not that hard and I'm rolling down the road safely with no thanks to the dealership.
That is exactly what the fix is and it's not hard. I don't know why the dealerships won't make that small adjustment to completely fix it.
 

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ShadowsPapa

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That is exactly what the fix is
In some cases.............

SOME dealers have replaced the whole steering sector and for warranty work of this sort, that's the correct procedure.
But as a life-long tech, just randomly tightening a screw, not knowing the whole process or impact down the road isn't advised. It may make troubles that aren't there while not correcting the issue.
I've had steering loose on cars where changing that made no difference - that's an end play, over-center adjustment. Incorrectly setting this can lead to trouble. But what do I know, training and experience don't count on the internet.
 

Backwoodsraider

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That is exactly what the fix is and it's not hard. I don't know why the dealerships won't make that small adjustment to completely fix it.
Yup, did mine the other day. had over a 2" dead spot in both directions from center. now its about 1/8 of an inch.

Tightened mine down all the way until it stopped, then backed it off 1/4 of a turn.

my only issue now is pulling to the right. numbers are good on a driveway alignment, but going to take it in eventually and get it pro done.
 

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I have been lurking on this thread for the most part and my thoughts are sort of like this. A Jeep does drive different than a car for all the reasons already mentioned. Although it should drive safely and in a controlled manner though donā€™t expect BMW or Porsche steering precision, it ainā€™t that kind of vehicle. However, it is not unrealistic to expect something of this nature to never make it to a dealership. There absolutely is a QC issue somewhere in the manufacturing and/or assembly process that needs to be identified and corrected. The funny thing in my case is I test drove a Rubicon JT for a few days and I noticed the excessive float. It was not at a level I would deem dangerous but it was definitely not ā€œnormal.ā€ I will say that once I found my Overland and drove it in the interstate I know exactly what some people are describing. I think it can be even worse than what I experienced in my extended test drive of the Rubicon. I also thought at first that it may have been the tires and I was a little apprehensive changing over to the Rubicon takeoffs. However, after changing the tires and wheels to the same ones found on the Rubicon I drove I still had the same great steering.

long story short. There is no reason that two identically equipped vehicles should not drive exactly the same. To make excuses for a company not doing adequate QC only perpetuates mediocrity.
 

ShadowsPapa

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Yup, did mine the other day. had over a 2" dead spot in both directions from center. now its about 1/8 of an inch.

Tightened mine down all the way until it stopped, then backed it off 1/4 of a turn.

my only issue now is pulling to the right. numbers are good on a driveway alignment, but going to take it in eventually and get it pro done.
Pull? Can be tires, can be steering sector over-center play, but these can't be adjusted for camber and caster difference is set at the factory. All they can do is change total caster one way or the other (with adjustable control arms) they cannot change the difference in caster side to side.
So if it's pulling due to caster or camber, there's nothing can be done via adjustment.
But improper steering sector adjustments can cause pull............

I worked doing alignments for years (along with all the other things I did).
Solid axle "alignment" is sort of a misleading term as they can set toe and total caster but not change caster difference, camber, they can't change.
Good luck, honestly - if there's a pull, there's a problem and I hope truly that you find the issue and they don't just set toe and give it back to you.
 

KHam

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In some cases.............

SOME dealers have replaced the whole steering sector and for warranty work of this sort, that's the correct procedure.
But as a life-long tech, just randomly tightening a screw, not knowing the whole process or impact down the road isn't advised. It may make troubles that aren't there while not correcting the issue.
I've had steering loose on cars where changing that made no difference - that's an end play, over-center adjustment. Incorrectly setting this can lead to trouble. But what do I know, training and experience don't count on the internet.
Well first of all, if you're a mechanic then you know it's not "some random screw". And yes warranty replacement is definitely the first choice until you're told "that's just the way Jeeps are". Do what you can to get the steering box replaced to fix the problem under warranty. I've owned and worked on lot of Jeeps over the years, and this is my 3rd Rubicon. The excessive play is not normal, it's not a Jeep or a Rubicon thing, and it's a brand new vehicle so you don't have worn out joints and end links to consider as a cause. The cause and solution are well known. With a couple small adjustments to remove 90% of the play, you understand exactly where 100% of the problem is and how easy it is to correct. Personally I understand exactly how it all works, and what issues can arise if you over torque a gear mesh. I've had my share of formal automotive training as well.
You can live with the issue if they won't fix it, or you can fix it 100% and accept the risk yourself. I wouldn't recommend making the adjustment if you're not comfortable working on your own vehicles though.
What happens if you fix it and the worse case scenario happens? You can void your warranty on the steering box because the marker has moved. So you enjoy driving it for several years with perfect steering response, and if you torqued it down way too much you can eventually damage the steering box over time. So then you replace it with a new one out of your pocket. Mopar steering box is a $600 part. In my personal humble opinion, I have broken much more expensive parts in shorter time on my Jeeps and got less enjoyment out of them. The Gladiator drives so nice when this is fixed it's simply worth it to me. Maybe not for you, but it is to me.
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