Loose steering-dealers response

[ShadowsPapa]

Thank you I appreciate the clarification, I’m willing to admit I’m a bit defensive about the JT situation cause as much as I love it, I’m hating it! Damn technology lol...the timing of posts, because I’ve always thought you were a champion of our cause, looks like I jumped the gun and you still are so please accept my apology.

Believe me if I still lived in Iowa or if I was brave enough to drive the darn thing home for a visit I’d take you up on the steering comparison, we could video it and send it to Jeep!!

Of course when you have a situation like that, it's not unlikely to be defensive about it. Frustration, trouble getting others to understand, then the "naysayers".

I also need to once in a while say that on occasion I DO play "devil's advocate" - to force folks to support their claim or contention. "Because I said so" doesn't cut it for me. "Show your work", support the claims with evidence, etc.
I had a supervisor years ago I really enjoyed working with and when times were not hectic, we'd "spar". He'd play "attorney", arguing a point he absolutely didn't believe in - like an attorney defending a client he knows is guilty, but still must defend. His name was also Bill (one of the first 10 to sign up for AOL back in the day)
We'd go back and forth and he taught me quite a few things about "arguing points". I thought he was either for something or against something, only to find out were were on the same side but we "sparred" to force me to prove my points.
I was also friends with a college professor back in the 90s who did the same things with his classes. He'd argue a point and it was all to force his students to prove what they said - dig DEEP, find evidence, research, not say "because I said it is". He was never my prof, he was states away, but we were both in the antique engine collecting and restoration hobby in a group online (before forums).
All that combined with my mother's "show me" attitued, I get super frustrated when people BS through things when I have the facts often in text book ar engineering form. I hate the shade-tree BS out there.
I think some find it really odd that I have a JT that behaves fine (like a truck shoiuld) as far as steering and yet I support the idea that there are those who have issues. Normally those not experiencing the issue are less likely to believe in it.
Knowing how they CAN be (mine) and seeing videos, plus 45 years in the auto repair and restoration field - I've seen a lot so am more likely to be able to see issues as real. And no one has proven to me the issue doesn't or can't exist.

Sponsored

 

[RWerksman]

FWIW, I took my Gladiator into the service department twice with no improvement. Decided to adjust the steering box damper retaining nut. Glad I did - it now drives exactly how I expect it to. Wish I didn't wait a year to do it.

Breaking the red Loctite was a real pain though. I ended up breaking out a propane torch to make it happen. Completely ridiculous for a $50k + vehicle, but at least its done.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

steering box damper??
You mean either the end play adjustment or in the case of the pitman shaft (nut on the cover with hex screw in center) the pitman shaft end play (over-center)
There's no damper in the steering sector.
That's adjusted with a torque wrench on the steering shaft while the sector is on center and measure the drag, then adjust the pitman shaft screw until there's a certain amount of drag on the input or steering shaft.

Of course there's more bad or incorrect info out there on the web that correct info so I go by the tech books on overhaul and adjustment.

 

[5JeepsAz]

Of course when you have a situation like that, it's not unlikely to be defensive about it. Frustration, trouble getting others to understand, then the "naysayers".

I also need to once in a while say that on occasion I DO play "devil's advocate" - to force folks to support their claim or contention. "Because I said so" doesn't cut it for me. "Show your work", support the claims with evidence, etc.
I had a supervisor years ago I really enjoyed working with and when times were not hectic, we'd "spar". He'd play "attorney", arguing a point he absolutely didn't believe in - like an attorney defending a client he knows is guilty, but still must defend. His name was also Bill (one of the first 10 to sign up for AOL back in the day)
We'd go back and forth and he taught me quite a few things about "arguing points". I thought he was either for something or against something, only to find out were were on the same side but we "sparred" to force me to prove my points.
I was also friends with a college professor back in the 90s who did the same things with his classes. He'd argue a point and it was all to force his students to prove what they said - dig DEEP, find evidence, research, not say "because I said it is". He was never my prof, he was states away, but we were both in the antique engine collecting and restoration hobby in a group online (before forums).
All that combined with my mother's "show me" attitued, I get super frustrated when people BS through things when I have the facts often in text book ar engineering form. I hate the shade-tree BS out there.
I think some find it really odd that I have a JT that behaves fine (like a truck shoiuld) as far as steering and yet I support the idea that there are those who have issues. Normally those not experiencing the issue are less likely to believe in it.
Knowing how they CAN be (mine) and seeing videos, plus 45 years in the auto repair and restoration field - I've seen a lot so am more likely to be able to see issues as real. And no one has proven to me the issue doesn't or can't exist.

Can't resist this, friends. Devil's advocate? Apt phrase for these times!

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Can't resist this, friends. Devil's advocate? Apt phrase for these times!

Funny how tinngs sort of connect because I was out in the JT, and this song came acrosss radio today......


And then I pop back in here and see your comment.

Welll back on the sort of topic, maybe - I'm a "show me your source" sort of person, and will play the other side to get someone to support what they say, not simply "because".
In this case, I've seen enough to believe it's an issue. Video, description, numbers.
So hopefully something will happen -NOT life threatening I hope! - to get dealers at least to pay attention. Sort of like the struggle I had with my tonneau cover (yeah, not a safety thing in the slightest but still frustrating when a dealer says " they are all that way" and I show pictures, etc.

I hope that we get something to come along that helps this - on the other hand, haven't we already? I mean the dealers that DID do something, like replace the sector, other stuff - and get it resolved? Shouldn't that count? Evidence - hey, dudes and dudettes - these dealers took the plunge and replaced parts and now those JTs are stable - what's up with youse guys?

 

[5JeepsAz]

Great lyrics - never heard that one! Agree. Does seem like 'steering syndrome' is enough of a deal to get a corporate level response. We'll see

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Great lyrics - never heard that one! Agree. Does seem like 'steering syndrome' is enough of a deal to get a corporate level response. We'll see

That was from his Cloud 9 album in the 1980s. Had George survived................what would he think of FB and tweeterdumb today.

Fingers still crossed for those folks with the steering troubles. I drove our 2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee today to fill it up and funny thing - I prefer the JT! Yup, if given a choice, I'd drive the JT. HOWEVER, there are a couple of things I really wish the JT had that the GC has but then hey, it's a Grand Cherokee - you expect it to be loaded up with stuff. But if I had to drive either for 2 hours, I'd take my truck.

 

[RWerksman]

end play adjustment or in the case of the pitman shaft (nut on the cover with hex screw in center)

Apologies. That is precisely what I mean.

I followed the guide here: but used the correct 4MM allen, not the 5/32 which is just slightly smaller. I ended up getting a 20" 1/2 extension, 20" 3/8 extension, and the 4MM 3/8 bit to make it happen in addition to the aforementioned propane torch.

 

[Adawg1203]

@JeepCares
What do you suggest?
I’ve been asked to do a. Photoshoot next week, with girls (women) and their Jeeps for a well known 4x4 Off-roading magazine!
I am the ONLY person in a gladiator....I WILL BE Jeep Gladiator’s representation for all to read...Cool right? NOPE!

‘Cause I’m ABOUT TO CANCEL THE PHOTOSHOOT BECAUSE ITS A DRIVE, I’d have to take my Gladiator on the highway for over an hour and then drive up a mountain...and my Gladiator is straight up DANGEROUS on the highway!!
My dealership service also told me “that’s just how it is”.
Please respond, are you telling us all that Jeep makes $54000 vehicles that are NOT SAFE on the highway? Bit expensive for an ATV?!

Question. Please don’t flip out on me as I’m just curious.

when you purchased your truck was it ”dangerous” on the highway then? If so 1. Did you say something to dealer 2. Why purchase a vehicle you felt was dangerous?

i don’t want to discredit steering issues as I have read much about them and seen some examples of alarming ‘play’ in the wheel. I’m lucky but that said on a test drive if something didn’t feel safe I wouldn’t purchase said vehicle. Or did the steering issue develop after you had purchased. Thanks.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Any car or truck, you should be able to test drive one on the lot and get a feel for how THAT model with THAT engine and THAT transmission and THAT gear ratio handles and drives and rides.
Then, as in my case, you order one in the color you want, the interior you want and should be able to feel confident that your vehicle will perform, steer, handle and ride like the one you drove.
There should be no reason to have to test drive every individual example of a given model, given engine, given transmission to make sure the steering isn't loose.
If you are satisfied with one on the lot and say to them, yes, but I want one in blue, black leather and not brown, with the larger screen system and know it's going to be fine because one almost like it was perfect when you drove it.
There's no reason in the world you have to test drive every single example of the same make and model because the color is different or the fenders are black instead of blue.
The consumer must be able to have some expectations that if the one they build for you has a problem or a major difference, the company will take care of it.
I drove 'em on the lot but they didn't have the color we wanted with the blue fenders and blue roof and a couple of other options. So we ordered. We were VERY happy with how the ones on the lot drove and handled and felt. Very happy - and that should be enough. You should not have to expect that every one off the line is going to be different in how it steers - the steering should be identical on every Overland ever made, every Sport S made, every Rubicon made - there should be little difference in ride because of different options, some, but not night and day. But the steering parts are the same on all of them - the track bar, the control arms, the steering sector, drag links, etc. (ok, there MAY be a tiny difference because of the wider axles on the Rubicon and Sport S max tow but even that shouldn't impact steering - just perhaps a bit on the ride or handling in heavy winds)
The track bar and links and other stuff I got as "Rubicon take-offs" are identical to the parts on my Overland.

I picked mine up at 6 pm in the middle of West Des Moines rush - it took several minutes just to get onto a street, then it was crazy stop and go to get to the interstate and I got to test that 3.6's guts and acceleration risking my life getting onto I35 southbound.
(anyone wonder what it's like - people from other states cuss our drivers - a friend from Toronto flew to Eugene, then drove his wife-to-be's car back to Toronto and came through Iowa - he said Iowa drivers sucked the worst of his whole trip - rude, cutting him off, fingering him, he was glad as heck to get out of Wes Des Moines especially)
The only way to have gotten a "test drive" for my specific special order JT would have been to gone back mid-morning when it was a bit calmer - but why? I already drove JTs from the lot.
We drove examples on the lot, they steered, handled and rode great. The expectation was that a truck made with my colors and radio screen size should do the same. IF not, then that's their problem - fix it.

When we trade GCs every 2 to 2.5 years, we drive one or two examples, then pick the options we want when we are satisfied that the trim level she wants is what we're going to get - no need to test drive the exact specific vehicle if the others were fine - unless FCA screws one up - then it's up to them to make it as good as the others we drove.
My son test drove a couple of Compass Jeeps - but they weren't the options he wanted. So they found him one - he had no need to test drive it because he knew he wanted on. If that one had steered badly or had some issues - then THAT one has a problem - they would have needed to fix it.

I can see the ultimate protection would be a long 15 minutes test drive of the exact vehicle you are getting, not just examples, and on all road surfaces, all road crowns, all speeds, wind, no wind and so on. But that's not always possible or practical. Maybe it's not windy that day, maybe the roads there don't have a crown and your roads do - maybe the opposite, maybe the speed limits in that whole area are 55 - and you travel interstates at 70....... you can't test for all situations, all roads, all wind speeds and directions, all highway speeds.

Just laying out some explanations for the numbers of those with issues vs. why wasn't it found before driving away with it..........

 

[JeepCares]

Another VERY dissatisfied customer with the Service Dept AND Jeep Customer Service. I absolutely have a dead spot in my steering. I was polite with every single phone call and visit to my local dealership. I said from the get-go that I wanted the "over center check done on the steering gear" - and explained the problem, and the safety issue at higher speed (ie, interstate). Their fix, or rather Jeep's "engineers" suggestion was to have them do an alignment. I balked and said I wasn't having alignment issues. Long story short, dealership refused to do the over center check - after they said they would - because the "engineers" said all it needed was an alignment and that I would have to call Jeep Customer Service to force them to do anything else. The backwoods tech said "drives like a Gladiator". BS. I've talked to Jeep Customer Care twice now (because the first guy didn't take correct information), explaining the problem. I was told I'd be contacted. I just received an email stating: the dealership states it repaired your problem, is it fixed? Super. I'm not wasting anymore time with Jeep, or this dealership.

@JeepCares I don't take my vehicle in for service unless absolutely necessary. I do all my own wrenching and have for years - I'm particular with my vehicles and I know how service staff usually treat vehicles. If I'm taking it in, there's a problem - and I explained that to everyone I've talked to throughout this - I don't want to waste anyone's time for something I can handle. No one seems to care or want to address this issue. All anyone has to do is simply Google jeep/gladiator steering issues - read for hours on end...
To say I'm disappointed is an understatement, and my story isn't as bad as some of the others I've read here.

Hi @watarski
We certainly understand the concern of your current situation. However, please know that our team is only able to offer support alongside a dealer service. If you find that you are unable to remedy this on your own and decide to schedule your dealer appointment, please do not hesitate to reach out to us privately. We would be happy to assist.

Kathryn
JeepCares

 

[HWKIGRL]

Question. Please don’t flip out on me as I’m just curious.

when you purchased your truck was it ”dangerous” on the highway then? If so 1. Did you say something to dealer 2. Why purchase a vehicle you felt was dangerous?

i don’t want to discredit steering issues as I have read much about them and seen some examples of alarming ‘play’ in the wheel. I’m lucky but that said on a test drive if something didn’t feel safe I wouldn’t purchase said vehicle. Or did the steering issue develop after you had purchased. Thanks.

I won’t flip out, but I certainly don’t appreciate you putting the blame on me Or anyone as the purchaser, really.

The details, since you’re “curious”:

There was no way I would have any idea before purchasing, I drove three vehicles prior, locally, in town driving as I was NOT aware there was a steering issue. Two drove wonderfully, one was a bit loose, I didn’t even think of it, like most people have commented the issue is exacerbated at highway speeds.

I purchased my Jeep almost 200 miles from home, because I followed the “break in” suggestions I took “side streets” most of the way home, ONCE I GOT ON THE FREEWAY (less than 30 miles from home) THE SLOPPY STEERING WAS EVIDENT! Turning around and driving a minimum of 3.5 hours back to a closed dealership was NOT an option.


You don’t notice it at “in town speeds” we didn’t drive on the highway during any of our test drives, I don’t know that I’ve ever driven a test drive on the highway.

So to your question: “was it “dangerous” on highway” yes, of course it was nothing happened to make the steering suddenly go bad it’s a defect, nothing more nothing less. Did I know? Hell no! How would I until driving at highway speeds? Although present it’s not obviously evident at slower speeds, in town driving. Once you know it’s obvious, otherwise you assume it’s the “getting used to” period, until you realize it’s nothing you want to get used to.

When I purchased it, did I say something to the dealer? No, I didn’t know there was an issue until I was miles, and hours away.
Of course I let them know during business hours the next day.
I also said something to my local Jeep Dealer? (where all of my warranty work will be done) I’ve mentioned it more than once, going back in this week.

“Why purchase a vehicle I “felt” was dangerous?” First I don’t “feel“ that it’s dangerous, it IS dangerous. The wheel has slop that is exacerbated in high winds, in and out of mountain and valley driving, in high traffic situations especially with semi trucks etc. I live in LA, the majority of my driving is ALL OF THE ABOVE!!

Even if I had an inkling, I find it strange that anyone purchasing a new vehicle should have to endure shoddy craftsmanship. This isn’t some pos used Chevy (btw my 12 year old Silverado drove better, our 2018 Wrangler drove better, by neighbor’s, my cousin’s, my best friends Jeeps ALL drive better...no dead spot, no slop...again it is a manufacturing DEFECT!)

We didn’t have an opportunity during our test drives to experience the alarming, dangerous steering issues.

It is certainly a learning experience, in the future I WILL drive any Jeep vehicle I’m interested in, on the highway, I will also drive THE vehicle I’m interested in. If the dealer won’t allow it, I won’t purchase there, it will certainly be an issue, no dealers here allow a “free form” driving experience on test drives, it’s “go straight, turn here...”
Isn’t it unfortunate that safety from vehicle to vehicle is a concern with Jeeps?

So sure, you can insinuate that it’s my fault or that it’s not an issue but it ISN’T and there IS!

 

[HWKIGRL]

Any car or truck, you should be able to test drive one on the lot and get a feel for how THAT model with THAT engine and THAT transmission and THAT gear ratio handles and drives and rides.
Then, as in my case, you order one in the color you want, the interior you want and should be able to feel confident that your vehicle will perform, steer, handle and ride like the one you drove.
There should be no reason to have to test drive every individual example of a given model, given engine, given transmission to make sure the steering isn't loose.
If you are satisfied with one on the lot and say to them, yes, but I want one in blue, black leather and not brown, with the larger screen system and know it's going to be fine because one almost like it was perfect when you drove it.
There's no reason in the world you have to test drive every single example of the same make and model because the color is different or the fenders are black instead of blue.
The consumer must be able to have some expectations that if the one they build for you has a problem or a major difference, the company will take care of it.
I drove 'em on the lot but they didn't have the color we wanted with the blue fenders and blue roof and a couple of other options. So we ordered. We were VERY happy with how the ones on the lot drove and handled and felt. Very happy - and that should be enough. You should not have to expect that every one off the line is going to be different in how it steers - the steering should be identical on every Overland ever made, every Sport S made, every Rubicon made - there should be little difference in ride because of different options, some, but not night and day. But the steering parts are the same on all of them - the track bar, the control arms, the steering sector, drag links, etc. (ok, there MAY be a tiny difference because of the wider axles on the Rubicon and Sport S max tow but even that shouldn't impact steering - just perhaps a bit on the ride or handling in heavy winds)
The track bar and links and other stuff I got as "Rubicon take-offs" are identical to the parts on my Overland.

I picked mine up at 6 pm in the middle of West Des Moines rush - it took several minutes just to get onto a street, then it was crazy stop and go to get to the interstate and I got to test that 3.6's guts and acceleration risking my life getting onto I35 southbound.
(anyone wonder what it's like - people from other states cuss our drivers - a friend from Toronto flew to Eugene, then drove his wife-to-be's car back to Toronto and came through Iowa - he said Iowa drivers sucked the worst of his whole trip - rude, cutting him off, fingering him, he was glad as heck to get out of Wes Des Moines especially)
The only way to have gotten a "test drive" for my specific special order JT would have been to gone back mid-morning when it was a bit calmer - but why? I already drove JTs from the lot.
We drove examples on the lot, they steered, handled and rode great. The expectation was that a truck made with my colors and radio screen size should do the same. IF not, then that's their problem - fix it.

When we trade GCs every 2 to 2.5 years, we drive one or two examples, then pick the options we want when we are satisfied that the trim level she wants is what we're going to get - no need to test drive the exact specific vehicle if the others were fine - unless FCA screws one up - then it's up to them to make it as good as the others we drove.
My son test drove a couple of Compass Jeeps - but they weren't the options he wanted. So they found him one - he had no need to test drive it because he knew he wanted on. If that one had steered badly or had some issues - then THAT one has a problem - they would have needed to fix it.

I can see the ultimate protection would be a long 15 minutes test drive of the exact vehicle you are getting, not just examples, and on all road surfaces, all road crowns, all speeds, wind, no wind and so on. But that's not always possible or practical. Maybe it's not windy that day, maybe the roads there don't have a crown and your roads do - maybe the opposite, maybe the speed limits in that whole area are 55 - and you travel interstates at 70....... you can't test for all situations, all roads, all wind speeds and directions, all highway speeds.

Just laying out some explanations for the numbers of those with issues vs. why wasn't it found before driving away with it..........

THANK YOU! THANK YOU!! THIS EXACTLY THIS!!!

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I won’t flip out, but I certainly don’t appreciate you putting the blame on me Or anyone as the purchaser, really.

The details, since you’re “curious”:

There was no way I would have any idea before purchasing, I drove three vehicles prior, locally, in town driving as I was NOT aware there was a steering issue. Two drove wonderfully, one was a bit loose, I didn’t even think of it, like most people have commented the issue is exacerbated at highway speeds.

I purchased my Jeep almost 200 miles from home, because I followed the “break in” suggestions I took “side streets” most of the way home, ONCE I GOT ON THE FREEWAY (less than 30 miles from home) THE SLOPPY STEERING WAS EVIDENT! Turning around and driving a minimum of 3.5 hours back to a closed dealership was NOT an option.


You don’t notice it at “in town speeds” we didn’t drive on the highway during any of our test drives, I don’t know that I’ve ever driven a test drive on the highway.

So to your question: “was it “dangerous” on highway” yes, of course it was nothing happened to make the steering suddenly go bad it’s a defect, nothing more nothing less. Did I know? Hell no! How would I until driving at highway speeds? Although present it’s not obviously evident at slower speeds, in town driving. Once you know it’s obvious, otherwise you assume it’s the “getting used to” period, until you realize it’s nothing you want to get used to.

When I purchased it, did I say something to the dealer? No, I didn’t know there was an issue until I was miles, and hours away.
Of course I let them know during business hours the next day.
I also said something to my local Jeep Dealer? (where all of my warranty work will be done) I’ve mentioned it more than once, going back in this week.

“Why purchase a vehicle I “felt” was dangerous?” First I don’t “feel“ that it’s dangerous, it IS dangerous. The wheel has slop that is exacerbated in high winds, in and out of mountain and valley driving, in high traffic situations especially with semi trucks etc. I live in LA, the majority of my driving is ALL OF THE ABOVE!!

Even if I had an inkling, I find it strange that anyone purchasing a new vehicle should have to endure shoddy craftsmanship. This isn’t some pos used Chevy (btw my 12 year old Silverado drove better, our 2018 Wrangler drove better, by neighbor’s, my cousin’s, my best friends Jeeps ALL drive better...no dead spot, no slop...again it is a manufacturing DEFECT!)

We didn’t have an opportunity during our test drives to experience the alarming, dangerous steering issues.

It is certainly a learning experience, in the future I WILL drive any Jeep vehicle I’m interested in, on the highway, I will also drive THE vehicle I’m interested in. If the dealer won’t allow it, I won’t purchase there, it will certainly be an issue, no dealers here allow a “free form” driving experience on test drives, it’s “go straight, turn here...”
Isn’t it unfortunate that safety from vehicle to vehicle is a concern with Jeeps?

So sure, you can insinuate that it’s my fault or that it’s not an issue but it ISN’T and there IS!

You touched on something I had forgotten sort of - the wake of the big rigs....... many - if not most - of those with the loose steering mention wind and semi trucks.
I can see that, mine even gets pulled and jerked around by the wake of the big trucks - it's a high profile vehicle with flat sides. No place for the air to go.
So unless you drive in wind, on the highway with trucks, or under certain other conditions, it may not show up in the first drive.

Frankly, the way some JT owners describe the issue is almost exactly how my Eagle was before I replaced the steering sector. In fact one alignment shop told me "man, your steering is loose!"
(I'm no longer equipped for alignment, just don't do it enough to justify)
Yeah it was, and yeah, it was tricky in the wind and it's a car (a car that sits high, but still a car)

 

[Rocksalt]

there is an obvious issue with some jeeps steering.. check out all the posts on the Jl wrangler site. It is sad that FCA has not corrected this.

Sponsored