NPS cancels AWD vehichles ( probably always has). I agree with concept but not their verbiage . #Read

[ZeeJay]

That's not even close to a legitimate comparison. An awd rav4 or the like doesn't have a center diff lock, the 249 does. It has a CVT that cuts all power when there's wheel slip, a ZJ does not. A stock ZJ probably has 2x the wheel travel, your long arm likely 4x that of these crossovers. They don't have 4Lo, the 249 does. That laundry list of limitations is too confusing and long winded to even explain to the average crossover buyer. Anyone that owns a ZJ/WJ/ or XJ that came with a full time high range mode knows full well that's not the AWD they are referring to. These are soft roaders at best and not intended for real 4x4 trails period. Can an experienced driver get one through most of these NPS roads on a day when the weather is good and they won't gave a lot of wheel slip? Of course. Throw some slick mud in the mix, wheel slip shuts the power down, and there's nothing any driver can do to combat that in some of these vehicles. Add in the fact that most of these buyers think AWD means they are ready for the rubicon trail and just telling them no is the smart move.

You know that’s not a serious comment right, I’d still make park bureaucrats squirm with that trivia. Speaking of serious comments have you seen how capable a RAV4 is when the white letters are facing out on the BFG A/Ts. Terrifying, I just go home.
Really seriously now, I’m with you man, cars like that have there place and serious technical off highway anything isn’t it. But they do it so now big brother has to step in and shut them down. I know they do because couple years agoish I recovered a young coworker who got in someplace he shouldn’t have, the ZJ that rescued him is the one pictured in profile. Wasn’t even a challenge for it, in fact no 4WD was needed, just limited slip was enough, by the time it was done he’d lost a bumper. He thought it could because others had told him it would and learned that day his Subaru isn’t on the same level as ‘96 Laredo with 3.5” lift and no sway bars. The marketing should be subdued aggressively but it sells to idealists who want to “explore” nature without “limits” while saving polar bears from the superior fuel mileage, while later finding easy parking at coffee shop posting selfies with a bush.

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[Minty JL]

Wish they would enact something like this in the Outer Banks; its always the awd yahoos getting buried

 

[Jefe1018]

Oh can’t wait to tell park squirrels my latest ZJ project on a long arm set up and 35s still has a 249 in it….. that’s an AWD.

This isn’t a vehicle issue as much as it’s an operator issue with applied common sense, just because you have it doesn’t mean you should use it. An AWD vehicle is very capable within its limitations. The good news is I saved a bunch of money on car insurance by switching to Geico.

I had a Commander with Qudra drive-II. A small lift and 31’s, iIt was a crazy good system, as bad as it was on gas when paired to the 1st gen 5.7 Hemi, damn near unstoppable when the two LSD’s engaged.

Wish they would enact something like this in the Outer Banks; its always the awd yahoos getting buried

I’ve run into folks on the Mojave road, stuck in sand… in a rental mustang, no water, no food, 100 degrees out.

Maybe they don’t make awd a no-go but also no common sense.

 

[ZeeJay]

I had a Commander with Qudra drive-II. A small lift and 31’s, iIt was a crazy good system, as bad as it was on gas when paired to the 1st gen 5.7 Hemi, damn near unstoppable when the two LSD’s engaged.



I’ve run into folks on the Mojave road, stuck in sand… in a rental mustang, no water, no food, 100 degrees out.

Maybe they don’t make awd a no-go but also no common sense.

I’ve been on the Jeep SUV crack train forever now with 93-04 Grands. Best recipe I’ve found and lord knows I have had all manner of lifts, axles and suspension setups, locked and unlocked is a WJ with 2” BB, 245/75-16s with a 247 QT-ll even with open diffs. Damn thing won’t stop until something gets under it. The places a 247 case will go is staggering and still be the most civil thing on the road with a foot of snow or not. It became a game to see if I could get it stuck and it was damn near impossible. I have always and will maintain the WJs are the best of best in Grand Cherokee world, aside from their phantom ground issues, and window regulators, and door harnesses, and the 4.7, and……I should stop now.

 

[Minty JL]

I’ve run into folks on the Mojave road, stuck in sand… in a rental mustang, no water, no food, 100 degrees out.

Maybe they don’t make awd a no-go but also no common sense.

Well common sense isn't common anymore.

Solution, ticket them until they get the point.......you know FAFO

 

[Jaxmax]

Actually Minty the answer is just to take all the signs down along with all warning labels on things that common sense says don’t do the problem will take care of it self soon enough.
Back in the day a cars owners manual would tell you how to adjust brakes and valves, now they tell you not to drink battery fluid!……Jack

 

[Jefe1018]

Well common sense isn't common anymore.

Solution, ticket them until they get the point.......you know FAFO

I’d bet people out for the first time and rental side by sides are 90% of the problem.

 

[Minty JL]

I’d bet people out for the first time and rental side by sides are 90% of the problem.

I hope Outer Banks, NC collectively ban the SxS now too. Last week some asshole in a SxS hit one of the wild horses (killing it) and attempted to flee the scene. Hope he enjoys the $50k fine and possible jail time

I thought a couple years back forcing people to buy permits to be on the beach would cut down on some of the jackassary, but its actually getting worse.

 

[Sweetums]

https://jalopnik.com/national-park-service-will-cite-drivers-of-awd-cars-for-1851617315

I been wanting to drive one of these Cross Treks as a possible daily to help build and save mileage on my 23JT.

Content discusses Pros and Cons 4WD and AWD, but I think the writer misses a point that there are a heck a lot of "unelectable diffs" out there that are not too much dissimilar then some AWD. Fun short read.

Good. I've too often seen these light-duty crossover cars out on trails where they don't belong, and they either end up stranded, broken, or driving off-trail to try to bypass an obstacle they can't handle.

What the Reddit commenters and that rag Jalopnik don't get is this is an AND statement, not an OR statement - you need "high clearance" AND "4WD". A Crosstrek, like other crossovers, has one of these things, clearance, but not 4WD; the same way a "performance SUV" has 4WD, but not the clearance. (Why do I have to explain boolean operators to people in 2024?)

This gets into what is AWD and what is 4WD.
To me a 4WD has

• A center locking transfer case
• Selectable high/low range gearing

Often people get into the weeds with full-time 4wd systems, such as the Toyota Land Cruiser, FJ Cruiser (automatic), and similar Lexus vehicles. These are still 4WD, they have low-range gears and the transfer case is only limited slip in 4-high, when shifted to 4-low it locks and sends power 50/50 to the front and rear.

AWD systems do not have low range or a locking transfer case, they use clutch packs or electronic traction control to move power around the drivetrain. The problem with this off road is you can exceed the limitations of the torque converter and all those diff clutch packs, resulting in a vehicle that causes damage to itself trying to climb an obstactle. Once those clutches get smoked, they no longer transmit power and the vehicle is disabled.

There are other problems with taking crossovers to the backcountry, mostly around durability. A stock Wranger, Colorado, or 4Runner will have much stronger suspension and powertrain components than a light-duty crossover like a RAV-4 or Subaru. 4WD vehicles are built to handle more shock loading and static loads than a car-based platform on tall wheels. I've seen Subarus hammer their shocks through the top of the shock tower on easy/moderate roads because that part of the body is just stamped sheet-steel that can't deal with that kind of abuse.

The NPS needs to have better definitions of what they consider to be 4WD vs AWD, but this is also on drivers who need to know their own vehicles. Just because your car says "Outback" or "Wilderness" on the side doesn't mean you can take it anywhere - you put yourselves and others at risk, and end up blocking the trail (often for several days) while your car is recovered. This happened on Elephant Hill one year, someone decided to take a Subaru up there, it broke very quickly and sat there for several days while they figured out the recovery - I wasn't able to run the trail that trip due to the closure.

I would much rather have a sign that says:

Beyond this point is rough backcountry trail. All vehicles must have ALL of the following:

• High clearance of no less than 8" from the lowest point
• 4WD with low-range is required
• Off-road tires such as AT or MT; highway tires are not allowed.

Travel beyond this point in vehicles that do not have these features is subject to citation.

There is a more more severe sign at the turnoff to another part of this same park (this is well before you enter the park and under another sign saying roads are impassible when wet).:

To go past the Hans Flat ranger station you have to check in with the rangers and show them your vehicle. They will 100% turn you around right there if you don't have the right vehicle and equipment.

 

[Sweetums]

I had an outback a few vehicles ago. That thing was a beast and I beat the crap out of it. I drove it off road all over Texas…no issues….it got me out of several sticky situations with mud, snow, and sleet. I even towed with it. I never took it rock crawling or anything, but I thought the AWD system was great. It was super under powered though. You could disengage the ac compressor while getting into the freeway and feel the power “boost.”

Slippery surfaces are where AWD does very well, but putting big rocks in front of it will cause it to smoke the brakes, diff clutch packs, and overheat the CVT. The terrain in Texas does not compare to the Utah wilderness.

 

[aFatBird]

I’ve run into folks on the Mojave road, stuck in sand… in a rental mustang, no water, no food, 100 degrees out.

Maybe they don’t make awd a no-go but also no common sense.

I've seen a prius out there once and that really got me confused.
Farther down the trail I ended up talking to someone who had to pull the prius off some rocks.
You know they say common sense isn't so common.

 

[Sweetums]

You don't have this problem in The South, the 'gators eat anyone dumb enough to be where they don't belong.

Makes the cleanup easier. The desert just turns them to jerky that someone has to go clean up.

 

[Trailman]

We have these signs up all over the county. They seem to work, as I very rarely see any vehicles attempting these roads that should not be.

 

[Sweetums]

Part of the problem is marketing, AWD crossovers are marketed as adventure-ready vehicles that are no different than 4WD SUVs. They often look the same, have aggressive styling to mimic 4WD vehicles, and salesmen will say anything to get another commission.

Many years ago I was at a car expo and the salesperson for Subaru swore up down and sideways that the Legacy Outback would "go everywhere your Land Cruiser (FZJ80) will go." Not everyone knows better and if they believe that crap, it's going to result in them being stuck or broken very far from a flatbed tow truck.

 

[Hunter#1]

Sweetums is right. A front wheel drive AWD is not a real 4x4 . All they are really is a cross over. It's basicly a car sub unibody frame. A real 4x4 will have 2 high, 4 high and 4 low. I drive the beaches to surf fish, I see a lot of awd's stuck in the soft sand. He's right, the salesman will tell you everything because the manufacturer is telling them an awd is great off road. Awd is great in the snow, hard packed dirt trails, but for mud and beach sand no. You can get by with a awd on a hard packed beach, sorta like Daytona, but I fish the beaches at A.I.MD and A.I.VA. You will hit patches of hard packed sand , but when you hit soft deep sand, you will love your real 4x4. I was in the Auto business for 34 years. Always remember , when you see the commercials with that fwd/awd busting up the trail and running the beach, They own it, they don't care about it having problems.

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