Steering Wobble Mystery

[jetdriver73]

Hi,

I have a ‘22 Gladiator Willys. Installed the Clayton 2.5” Overland kit, with 37” KO2’s. Installed it all last year and it’s been a dream, with no issues whatsoever. Loaded the bed of my Jeep with 4 wheels & tires, which I sold to a member on this forum (shout out to Shane). Drove them 1:45 minutes to meet up with him and make the exchange. After I unloaded them and drove away, I immediately felt that something wasn’t right in my steering. When going around a curve above 45 mph, with some bumps in the road, the steering wheel is moving back and fourth and the front end feels loose. A wobble is the best word to describe it. The higher the speed and more bumps, the worse the wobble is. The mystery is, why did this happen AFTER I took the load out of the back? What could possibly have changed in the suspension to suddenly cause this to happen? Any insights would be appreciated!

Ed

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[aFatBird]

Could just be a coincidence but it never hurts to check the torque on everything once in a while.

 

[Free2roam]

Interesting. Mine is opposite. Mine loaded with camper the bed with build out has experienced almost the same thing. Front left driver's side has a wobble. More of a bounce. I've tried to recreate it on the right side but it doesn't do it. Same lift 2.5 Clayton Overland kit. Although mines a diesel and has the HD springs. Drove fanttfor a few thousand miles now a bounce only when going over bumps. It keeps bouncing. Until I slow down steering wheel doesn't shake like death wobble.

 

[Pilsner]

I've had issues with my front lower control arm axle side bolts coming loose. They need to be tight. Also had my wheels balanced and some were 4oz off. After checking all front end fasteners and balancing, mine was almost completely gone. Checked alignment and moved to Falcon 2.1 damper and it feels great now. Mine started when it got cold out and was pretty bad.

 

[Lunentucker]

Death Wobble, DW, Death Wobble, DW, Death Wobble, Shimmy, Wander, Drift, Bump Steer | Jeep Gladiator Forum - JeepGladiatorForum.com

 

[jetdriver73]

Death Wobble, DW, Death Wobble, DW, Death Wobble, Shimmy, Wander, Drift, Bump Steer | Jeep Gladiator Forum - JeepGladiatorForum.com

Thanks guys. Something jumped out at me from somewhere in this thread:

“When your underlying issues overwork your stabilizer enough it will fail, and "suddenly" you have death wobble.”

This would certainly explain why it happened so suddenly. Going to dive deeper into all this. Thanks!

 

[pcrawfordpt]

First check all the usual suspects and .make sure everything is torqued to proper specs. Then make sure your tires are properly balanced. Make sure your ball joints are good. If all that checks out and you still have the wobble then you need to upgrade the steering stabilizer. Don’t upgrade the stabilizer first, make sure everything else is good. I had this issue with my 37’s after we double and triple checked everything I mentioned above. Put a Bilstein stabilizer on it and it went away. Remember a gas charged steering stabilizer will always gently push your steering and you will need to resist it with a slight amount of pressure on the steering wheel. Barely noticeable, but there.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

You've thrown your JT outside of the range the stock parts can handle without some changes. You are outside of engineering criteria. So - you'll need to look at some other changes to compensate.

37s are going to be hard to correctly balance.
That's been a common topic here for a long time - and many people have found wobble greatly improved by PROPER balancing of tires - too many shops just don't get it. They toss those big things on the machine, stick on some weight and call it good. That's ok for most smaller tires, but these need someone who knows what they are doing with good equipment, IMO. (I had 3 shops unable to find a vibration, one a specialty axle shop, supposedly the best in the business - there's nothing wrong here, it's all just fine - it was a bent wheel)

You've changed scrub radius - can't say if it's pushed it into the negative without looking right at it, but you have certainly reduced the positive and that means - other things will change, and need to be changed.
You will need different toe settings in some cases with the wider, taller tires, due to the changes you have made in the scrub radius.

Taller tires with no wheel offset changes you move the scrub radius more negative.
It starts out positive with stock tire sizes. The taller you go, the more you reduce the positive SR and you end up either 0 (bad) or negative (badder).

Rear-wheel-drive vehicles will normally have a positive scrub radius.
The vehicle’s forward motion, combined with friction between the tires and the road, moves the front wheels back, for a toe-out. So you set toe-in to compensate, the idea is that on the road the wheels will be neither toe out or toe in, they will be straight.
There is also a slight tension applied to the steering so they are "preloaded" and instantly responsive when you turn or change direction or correct direction. It takes the "looseness" out of the steering with a slight positive scrub radius and toe-in - stability, tighter feeling steering.

if you change tire size and end up with 0 scrub radius, the tires can want to pivot or wobble about the center point.
Tension on the steering system is reduced and handling will tend to be unstable.

if you change tire size enough and end up with negative scrub radius, now the tires want to toe-in and that's why some people get results with a very slight toe-out setting with large tires (and no wheel change)
Changing wheels can have the same sort of impact on how they steer, brake and otherwise handle.

Those who say "bunk" to all of that "mine is just fine with 37s or 40s" are lucky.........or maybe a few not totally honest, not wanting to admit it could be better, or they really don't care because they like the looks or what it can do off-road.

Here's a blip I have from a web site a while back about this effect - I saved it because it applies more to Jeeps than most other vehicles - what's the first thing some jeep people do?
Yeah, lift and tires, and what's one of the biggest complaints? Instability, loose steering, WOBBLE............

Very large tires on stock wheels may produce negative scrub radius. This can cause vehicle wandering and a lack of steering input on a RWD vehicle. It may be possible to offset changes to scrub radius caused be wheel and tire changes by adjusting the toe setting. But this will be a compromise at best.

 

[jetdriver73]

I appreciate the response, and I understand what you’re saying. However, it still doesn’t address how or why my Gladiator has performed flawlessly for the 1 year I’ve been running this setup. Then I put a load in the bed, take it out and all of the sudden I have steering wobble. Just finished checking torque on everything. Nothing loose and no visible issues. Heading to the alignment shop now to see if something got out of whack.

 

[Wheelin98TJ]

Have you checked for missing wheel weights?

 

[jetdriver73]

Yep, all there. Thanks!

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I appreciate the response, and I understand what you’re saying. However, it still doesn’t address how or why my Gladiator has performed flawlessly for the 1 year I’ve been running this setup. Then I put a load in the bed, take it out and all of the sudden I have steering wobble. Just finished checking torque on everything. Nothing loose and no visible issues. Heading to the alignment shop now to see if something got out of whack.

Unless something is bent or loose - all an alignment shop can do without replacing parts is set toe - UNLESS you have adjustable control arms - then they can mess with caster (too much can introduce caster wobble, too little and it's wanting to wander)

It could be that the whole past year you were on the very edge and it was just barely fine, and then more wear crept in and things got wobbly.
Could be a weight was thrown (so like already said - check for missing stick-on weights, or just have things balanced again, correctly)
Are you using the torque specs all over the internet - most of which are incorrect for a JT, or do you use the specs posted by Lunentucker here?
The specs you see tossed around on the Wrangler forums and other places are often too loose, they are older specs but like so many internet things - it must be right, I found it on the internet.
I only go by these -
https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...torque-values-all-of-them-in-one-place.67915/
they are correct current factory specs for the Gladiator. Note differences between some models, etc. due to different steering knuckles as far as ball joint torque specs. To check the ball joints you will have to remove the cotter pin, check torque, and replace the pin.

If you have swapped out any parts - control arms, track bar, etc. - be sure to torque when all 4 wheels are resting on the ground and the weight of the Jeep is fully on the springs.
If you didn't do that when putting in the lift - you could have bad bushings.

Do check for loose parts - you'll need someone inside the truck moving the steering wheel back and forth, engine off, while you feel every steering joint, feel and look for looseness. Cold be something is worn just a tiny little bit more and now it's at the point of trouble.
Things were always fine before they weren't. What changed? Something wore a bit more, something is now loose, shocks wear, tires wear and get out of balance, maybe a tire itself is the problem. Tires have been known to cause symptoms like these.

 

[Free2roam]

Nor does it address why mine has gone awry. I'm only running Rubi take off tires. No vibration until I hit a bump. Left side only bounces up and down. Did it last night but no steering wheel shake. Shocks are good. Nothing leaking. The only suspect could be the track bar coming off the steering box. Had the wife turn the wheel back and forth to check for any looseness that upper joint had a small binding on it.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Nor does it address why mine has gone awry. I'm only running Rubi take off tires. No vibration until I hit a bump. Left side only bounces up and down. Did it last night but no steering wheel shake. Shocks are good. Nothing leaking. The only suspect could be the track bar coming off the steering box. Had the wife turn the wheel back and forth to check for any looseness that upper joint had a small binding on it.

Tire balance or shocks.
How did you test the shocks to determine they are good?
Steering components don't account for up and down movement - tires do, (bad tire) tire balance, or weak shocks.
Since it's one side only - concentrate on that shock and that tire.
is there any cupping of that tire at all, even minor? (felt by the hand, seen with a light shone on the tire across the face of the tire to show the shadows of cupping)

 

[Free2roam]

Tire balance or shocks.
How did you test the shocks to determine they are good?
Steering components don't account for up and down movement - tires do, (bad tire) tire balance, or weak shocks.
Since it's one side only - concentrate on that shock and that tire.
is there any cupping of that tire at all, even minor? (felt by the hand, seen with a light shone on the tire across the face of the tire to show the shadows of cupping)

Slight cupping, shocks were pushed by hand equal amounts of pressure applied within reason. Seemed really close to the same. Also had it realigned by a reputable place here in town.

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