Stellantis pleads guilty, will pay $300m for illegally concealing the amount of pollution created by its diesel engine vehicles

[ShadowsPapa]

Maybe you don't find those regulations reasonable. Maybe the FCA/Stellantis employees involved didn't find them reasonable. Maybe every single one of them was an unabashed coal-rolling climate-change-denier in their personal lives. None of that matters. A public corporation has a duty to its shareholders to understand and comply with the laws of the places it does business in. In this case, FCA is accused of (and settled a case for) straight-up cheating to gain an unfair competitive advantage by dumping illegal amounts of bad stuff into the air we breathe. This seems like pretty sketchy behavior to applaud.

It's made worse by the fact that most other auto makers were complying, or at least not cheating.
Doesn't matter whether or not someone agrees with rules or laws, if everyone who didn't like a law or rule simply ignored it, society would eventually collapse.
Sometimes decisions are made for the greater good. The next decision may go the other way - it's how it works.

If an auto maker can't keep up, then those who can survive.

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[redriderjf87]

It's going to happen again. They're all likely fudging the numbers to some extent.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

It's going to happen again. They're all likely fudging the numbers to some extent.

Only a fraction of the auto makers' testing is actually done via an EPA facility. EPA accepts what the auto makers certify for their vehicles, and that it's correct.
That's like playing poker and just accepting that the other fellow's hand was better but never actually seeing it.
Ford was caught fudging tow/payload numbers by leaving off spares, or using smaller spares, and leaving off the standard bumpers, etc. to shave weight.

 

[Pescatoral Pursuit]

It's concerning to see the number of enthusiasts actively rooting against their own best interests.

 

[Pescatoral Pursuit]

if everyone who didn't like a law or rule simply ignored it, society would eventually collapse.

Not axiomatic.
There's an old saying that bad laws are the ones that good people don't follow.

And let's face it, in the most technical sense, we are not talking about a law. We are talking about an arbitrary regulation by a bureaucracy which is not accountable to the people. This is not a law where someone introduced a bill, and then it was debated in the houses of Congress, passed in both houses then signed by the President.
There has always been a history of pushback against government overreach, whose willing participants unfortunately have diminished precipitously.
These laws (bureaucratic regulations) are not designed to produce cleaner air. They are designed to destroy and industry and perhaps even more so, under the pretense of producing cleaner air.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Not axiomatic.
There's an old saying that bad laws are the ones that good people don't follow.

And let's face it, in the most technical sense, we are not talking about a law. We are talking about an arbitrary regulation by a bureaucracy which is not accountable to the people. This is not a law where someone introduced a bill, and then it was debated in the houses of Congress, passed in both houses then signed by the President.
There has always been a history of pushback against government overreach, whose willing participants unfortunately have diminished precipitously.
These laws (bureaucratic regulations) are not designed to produce cleaner air. They are designed to destroy and industry and perhaps even more so, under the pretense of producing cleaner air.

I don't want a bunch of rich attorneys sitting in the house chambers deciding our CAFE and EPA regulations, either - the last thing I want is "congress" determining what the rules should be.
IMO, that's even worse. They don't know squat, and money talks. If congress decided, you'd have no more ICE vehicles as of 2025, nation-wide.
Anyone who believes that CAFE numbers or emissions rules should be decided by people who sit protected in secure chambers, and who are driven to and from "work" by hired drivers, who have never worked in any other field, lifetime professional politicians, that that would be better, is really asking for trouble. I bet many of them don't even pump their own gas.
It's not ideal, but rules coming from the EPA are definitely the lesser of two evils compared to having congress decide! What a hoot that would be. Vote this down or I contribute to the other guy.........
And you have seen and heard what some of those people say, right? They can't even get basic statistics correct.

 

[Pescatoral Pursuit]

IMO, that's even worse. They don't know squat, and money talks. If congress decided, you'd have no more ICE vehicles as of 2025, nation-wide.
Anyone who believes that CAFE numbers or emissions rules should be decided by people who sit protected in secure chambers, and who are driven to and from "work" by hired drivers, who have never worked in any other field, lifetime professional politicians, that that would be better, is really asking for trouble.

I don't believe you can quantify this statement. The only difference between ignorant bureaucrats and ignorant politicians is an extra layer(s) between the voters. And in fact it's not difficult to infer the EPA is working specifically bring to an end the ICE, if not the industriousness of the developed world which runs on ICEs and FFs.

There is a reason the EPA is more focused on emissions rather than efficiency even though the latter would satisfy the former.

 

[FitfulGoat]

The extent of knowledge that people here possess relative to the workings and science behind the EPA, global climate change, Diesel engines, etc. is astounding. I need to turn the news on more so I too can be an expert!

Either this forum has the highest density of IQ’s over 150 or Jeep Gladiator owners have more hubris than the entire collection of Greek mythology’s ?

 

[redriderjf87]

Only a fraction of the auto makers' testing is actually done via an EPA facility. EPA accepts what the auto makers certify for their vehicles, and that it's correct.
That's like playing poker and just accepting that the other fellow's hand was better but never actually seeing it.
Ford was caught fudging tow/payload numbers by leaving off spares, or using smaller spares, and leaving off the standard bumpers, etc. to shave weight.

For sure, they're all probably fudging the numbers to some extent.

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